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RE: no morale loss

 
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RE: no morale loss - 6/6/2018 7:55:17 PM   
Joneleth

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael


quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78

It's not about russian ability but about german morale while winning defensive battles. Russian steamroll will be stronger and faster.


Yeah, but what if there is close to 0 defensive battles won by the German side? The change has no effect. And you can try more counterattacks without fear of losing morale.


But then the question becomes, why is there 0 defensive battles won by the germans? Is it because the the soviets are all powerfull and cannot lose a battle? Or is it because soviet players carefully select their battles to avoid giving the germans bonus morale?

Because if it is the later, then by virtue of removing this possible penalty the soviets are encouraged to do alot more attacks where they might have been more iffy about the result. Thus resulting in alot more won battles forcing a faster german collapse.

< Message edited by Joneleth -- 6/6/2018 7:56:36 PM >

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 91
RE: no morale loss - 6/7/2018 5:00:40 PM   
chaos45

 

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Back to the red airforce morale issue---I disagree with your entire perspective on soviet pilot training.....also you then need to add in systems to tell if pilots are dead/wounded/returned to action...this entire add on was completely not thought through and should not have been added to the game with some consultation from the player base.

Im not complaining about lower experience in the soviet airforce---my complaint is my NM is 20.......

20 is way to low....give the soviets a slight experience penalty I have to grow back from thats fine its the NM morale of 20-25 in 1941 and 1942 that is absolutely stupid.

Having a experience hit after the huge influx of new planes and pilots IMO is fine...its the fact that no matter how long I leave pilots training now they will max out at the 20-25 which with how this game works is basically untrained labor level.

< Message edited by chaos45 -- 6/7/2018 5:01:49 PM >

(in reply to charlie0311)
Post #: 92
RE: no morale loss - 6/7/2018 5:21:27 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Try to keep in mind like Morvael said it is a beta version and meant to pre test possible changes out for a main stable version and I personally think it is a joy to be treasured that this game is still worked on

I don't think how the airwar plays out in 41 the way it is supposed to at the moment with current meta
Of course there might be teething problems with some of the betas when trying to create a better game flow but ultimately that is the point in beta versions and it will be two steps forward one step back but I am sure it will be fixed

I personally think the red airforce needs some kind of bottleneck for 41 as unless you get two players that do not care about the air war very much then it plays out the same way every game where the Soviets just suicide throw thousands of bombers pools away until they get an airforce with parity by 42 or they force Axis to turtle back with staging bases in 41 which in of itself is a defensive measure and not very apt of how 41 should play I feel

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 93
RE: no morale loss - 6/7/2018 5:28:35 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Also I agree 20 morale is way too low

(in reply to SparkleyTits)
Post #: 94
RE: no morale loss - 6/7/2018 6:06:56 PM   
chaos45

 

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yes but at this point maybe they should discuss with the community proposed changes.....so major changes can be done within reason if they make sense.

(in reply to SparkleyTits)
Post #: 95
RE: no morale loss - 6/7/2018 7:23:52 PM   
Joneleth

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

yes but at this point maybe they should discuss with the community proposed changes.....so major changes can be done within reason if they make sense.


I think Morvael uses beta patches as a way of discussing it with the community, so instead of just theorizing about a chance people can test it out before they make any immediate conclusions, that said I also think the air morale change is very bad for the game. Its already so hard getting anything usefull out of the red airforce.

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 96
RE: no morale loss - 6/7/2018 10:15:41 PM   
beender


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I still don't think the red airforce needed to be nerfed in the first place. For a while they seemed too strong, and then we discovered as long as Lufewaffe did not go too aggressively it could main very good exchange ratio at least throughtout 41. As stated and proved by more than one skilled player.

As axis, one can lose 100+ bombers in a careless bombing run where the opponent makes a well organized airwar campaign. But as far as ground support is concerned, my experience is the more soviet commits its planes, the more it loses, incurring very little damage to Germans.

So i simply dare not imagine how the red airforce would fare under the new patch.

(in reply to SparkleyTits)
Post #: 97
RE: no morale loss - 6/8/2018 12:00:38 AM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Yes, on the other hand some players were very comfortable with using well known tricks and exploits to win, and didn't want to start from a level playing field, having to find out and learn what works in place of their previous skills. There are also players who vastly prefer one side to the other (Axis or Soviet), and are furious everytime their favourite side gets a nerf, while being inconspicuously quiet when the other side gets a nerf. My stance on global balance is well known now, I think, where I don't want to see any sudden death Axis victories in 41 or 42 (including easily overruning Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov before winter'41), and I want to see Soviets in Berlin sometime in 1945.

Long-living computer games usually undergo some meta shakeup to keep things interesting. Without any patches player interest fades away as well. Of course if any changes are introduced there are possible rage quits etc from those who don't like new meta or don't want to make the effort to learn it.


I'll start by being clear that I (and I'm sure the rest of the community) am really appreciative of the continued support that this game receives, from yourself in particular.

But I do feel a bit uncertain about a lot of the above. It feels as if much of the 'design brief' of the recent patch is to balance out strategies that have been used by what you might term as the 'elite' players who are very active on the forums, have large amounts of time to commit to the game and who tend to have an approach geared towards getting the most out of the mechanics of the game rather than seeking historical realism. To be clear I am not taking sides for or against that approach or those players, just expressing an opinion that they may be different to the more 'casual' players who may fall under the radar a little.

The problem I see is that if you go too far in the direction of acting as 'referee' in the games between those players there is a risk that it turns into whack a mole. Every time a new patch comes out the elite players will go back to the drawing board to find new 'slack' in the engine. The next patch goes after these new 'tricks and exploits' and the process repeats itself. In the end I fear this could lead to a bit of disillusionment on all sides - especially as the nature of the game is such that most matches, even between the quickest players, will go through a number of patches if they go the distance. A game in 44/45 might have gone through 3 major updates and by the end of it it becomes difficult to tell how much of the final result is down to player skill and how much is due to having the rub of the green with the 'meta' of the patch changes.

Alongside this, from the perspective of a more casual player, a patch like this brings its own problems. For understandable reasons much of the official documentation is now out of date. Very big changes not only push the official manual further out of date but also potentially undermine the 'alternative' way of learning the game which is to go through the forum and the AARs and learn from the experiences of others. The more the game changes from patch to patch the less useful that resource becomes. Plus there is the risk that changes aimed to balance the 'elite' games have unintended consequences for games involving more casual players. You mention players leaving the game due to not wanting to relearn a new version - I think this is a much bigger risk among more casual players who may have found an approach which works satisfactorily but which suddenly stops working in a new patch version.

I think that many of the balance issues can be dealt with by players without intervention in the rule-set - either on a general level through people being explicit about whether they want to play 'historically' or (for want of a better term) in a min-max fashion; or through specific house rules on 'borderline' practices; or even just through natural selection as players really pushing something to the absolute extremes run out of competitive opponents willing to play them.

Going back to the original starting point - I really appreciate the continued work that goes into this game. But with WITE2 on the horizon I'd personally rather see a rule-set that stays stable up to that point, with work being more geared towards bug-fixes and 'quality of life' improvements rather than large scale balancing experiments.

This has ended up a bit of a ramble - I hope that it makes some kind of sense!

< Message edited by Sammy5IsAlive -- 6/8/2018 12:14:09 AM >

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 98
RE: no morale loss - 6/8/2018 7:10:47 AM   
morvael


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I would give a lot to have the tools in place modern games have - like DC3 Barbarossa, HOI4 - where certain metrics are reported from ALL played games online to developer statistic servers, and offer the most objective feedback possible, not limited to subjective biased opinions of the most vocal players only. But that's the reality we have here. If you want your voice or opinion to be heard - please write on the forum.

Also, I admit we're now at least 1 full year after I expected WitE2 to appear, where no one would play this game anymore and I would be free of the obligation to offer support. The longer we continue patching the game without proper testers and manual writer on board, the more it deviates from the original manual. For that I am sorry, but sadly we have to operate in such constrains. I still think the overall impact of the changes we made is positive, even if a few bugs slips unnoticed.

(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 99
RE: no morale loss - 6/8/2018 11:20:29 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
I would give a lot to have the tools in place modern games have


I think it is a great job being done and especially given the limited resources you have in support.

While there may not be the in built tools there are other ways to gauging game balance that does not depend on just the selection of contributors in the forums. Emailed surveys for example are pretty cheap to set up - and even if you get 1% of the base replying that is still a far wider variety. You can even have tick boxes and the results automatically tallied for you?

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 100
RE: no morale loss - 6/8/2018 11:45:14 AM   
morvael


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Yes, but that still will be too subjective (from metrics you can easily find out how often Moscow falls and on which turn, asking "do you think Moscow falls to easily" is not the same thing).

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 101
RE: no morale loss - 6/8/2018 11:49:46 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Yes, but that still will be too subjective (from metrics you can easily find out how often Moscow falls and on which turn, asking "do you think Moscow falls to easily" is not the same thing).



What about "On your last game was Moscow captured by the Axis? Y/N In which turn was it captured? [Insert turn number here]"

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/8/2018 11:50:04 AM >

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 102
RE: no morale loss - 6/8/2018 12:06:59 PM   
morvael


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I'm not sure we would get absolute truth that way, you can enter whatever you wish into an online poll.

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 103
RE: no morale loss - 6/8/2018 12:12:53 PM   
Telemecus


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Absolutely true - and true of all polls. The real question is of relative utility - you will still probably get a better idea of the general balance of the game across all players than just scanning comments of the few in the forums. And forum comments are even more subject to bias.

Some will state higher numbers, some lower - they will cancel each other out. But an objective question with a large sample is still the most accurate representation you can get.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/8/2018 12:15:29 PM >

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 104
RE: no morale loss - 6/8/2018 1:21:31 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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Is there no way to include thise metrics tracking in WitE?

Not sure why it wasn't there in the first place, as a dev I would love to get all those statistics.

_____________________________

Visit the Library of Gary Grigsby's War in the East resources!

"When a wargamer is tired of invading the Soviet Union, he is tired of life."

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 105
RE: no morale loss - 6/8/2018 2:15:58 PM   
Telemecus


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Joined: 3/20/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
Not sure why it wasn't there in the first place, as a dev I would love to get all those statistics.


I experienced three big software projects where I was working where the management information needs was specified from the beginning but kept getting kicked down the road. As the consumer launch date arrives it keeps getting postponed. And then in the end with commercial pressures everything is put into a working product for the end user and all other considerations are put to an aside. That was my experience with big well resourced commercial software. Given the limited resources and ambition of WitE I can quite see why this fell off the back end. It would not be for lack of good intentions!


< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/8/2018 2:17:27 PM >

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 106
RE: no morale loss - 6/9/2018 9:50:02 PM   
RKhan


Posts: 324
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From: My Secret Bunker
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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

I would give a lot to have the tools in place modern games have - like DC3 Barbarossa, HOI4 - where certain metrics are reported from ALL played games online to developer statistic servers, and offer the most objective feedback possible, not limited to subjective biased opinions of the most vocal players only. But that's the reality we have here. If you want your voice or opinion to be heard - please write on the forum.

Also, I admit we're now at least 1 full year after I expected WitE2 to appear, where no one would play this game anymore and I would be free of the obligation to offer support. The longer we continue patching the game without proper testers and manual writer on board, the more it deviates from the original manual. For that I am sorry, but sadly we have to operate in such constrains. I still think the overall impact of the changes we made is positive, even if a few bugs slips unnoticed.


Just getting back to the game after some time off (moved to Wales, lovely place)...

I think you have testers, its everyone who signs up to the beta. I also think its to be expected that sometimes the new features don't work out and that doesn't bother me so long as they aren't promoted to the standard version. I seem to recall a couple years ago there was a new beta feature everyone hated but it got promoted, but perhaps my memory if faulty on this point.

As for the manual, it is a big deal and I imagine it puts off many potential new players. Have you ever consider posting it as a wiki and letting the community do the work? I got started once translating the pdf to word and then a wiki but the pdf to word was not clean and I didn't have the time to fix all the tables. Perhaps if you publish the original document someone more clever than me can set it up.

And thanks for all the hard work morvael!



_____________________________

RKhan

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 107
RE: no morale loss - 6/10/2018 1:20:11 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RKhan
As for the manual, it is a big deal and I imagine it puts off many potential new players. Have you ever consider posting it as a wiki and letting the community do the work? I got started once translating the pdf to word and then a wiki but the pdf to word was not clean and I didn't have the time to fix all the tables. Perhaps if you publish the original document someone more clever than me can set it up.


There actually was a fan made wiki for a while - I even briefly saw it. But it crashed and disappeared due to some computer problem.

I guess the two lessons I draw from this are that
i) Only a wiki updated by users can hope to be (more) up to date as a useful source - patch notes are impenetrable and forums are just badly structured to find what you want
ii) A wiki cannot be hosted by users - you do need the developers to invest in the (minimal) costs/time for for making the wiki persist.

(in reply to RKhan)
Post #: 108
RE: no morale loss - 6/10/2018 1:39:25 PM   
morvael


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I had a private wiki on my own server once, but it was hacked and used to wipe my server. I'm not going to host another one . Are there some free wiki sites? What are their limitations? Is it worth to work on it when the game is so old and will be soon made obsolete by WitE2?

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 109
RE: no morale loss - 6/10/2018 1:48:02 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 1699
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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
I had a private wiki on my own server once, but it was hacked and used to wipe my server. I'm not going to host another one . Are there some free wiki sites? What are their limitations? Is it worth to work on it when the game is so old and will be soon made obsolete by WitE2?


I guess others will know better on the wiki sites. My main point was probably for WitE2.0 - but yes I think it equally applies to WitE1.0 even now. How many times are the same questions answered - why do my planes not fly? How can I paradrop a unit? What do those numbers mean next to the commander? Answering once in a wiki will still save the same question on forums in the future. So even at this stage a crowd sourced wiki would be very productive.

My only question is would the ten quid or so a year subscription cost and the five minutes annually to renew it be something that the developers be willing to do? Would it be worth suggesting to them? That seems to be the only weak point of being left to the fan base. I am sure that would lead to at least an increase of one in sales for WitE1.0 - and that would already repay the cost several times over.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 110
RE: no morale loss - 6/10/2018 3:27:46 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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Agree Telemecus. I also believe that it would not be a vain effort, a wiki for WitE 1 will still be used (just look how many questions are asked on the forum and how many complains are there about the manual being out of date) and could be used as a test run for WitE 2 and other games of Matrix.

There are free wiki softwares and also pages where you can create your own one (here is an example: http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Barad-d%C3%BBr ), but they contain allot of ads and not sure how well they can be configured to the needs of the game.

It requires Matrix to set up the system, I personally would be willing to convert what I can from the library to the wiki format once the system is set up. I am pretty convinced I would not be the only one.

Also, if Matrix is willing to share the raw data of the manual, it could be quickly updated by a team effort I think.

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 6/10/2018 3:32:44 PM >


_____________________________

Visit the Library of Gary Grigsby's War in the East resources!

"When a wargamer is tired of invading the Soviet Union, he is tired of life."

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 111
RE: no morale loss - 6/12/2018 10:03:40 AM   
Acidman

 

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Found a bug in the new patch.

Playing the Konrad scenario as Germany. The first thin I did was to change the HQ of 24th PzDiv to LVII Pz corps. When I did, the game freeze and I have to ctrl-alt-del to close the game.

Second try this worked, but instead froze when trying to change 18 SS Div, located in the same stack, to the same corps as above.

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 112
RE: no morale loss - 6/12/2018 12:31:54 PM   
morvael


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I will try to replicate this.

(in reply to Acidman)
Post #: 113
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