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Do you think this is fun? - 5/12/2018 8:51:58 PM   
UP844


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The screen shows the final body count after a game of "Kurhaus Clash" played with the Germans at Very Hard level. It ended in a German Major Victory with a 15:1 loss ratio.

When I played the same scenario with the Americans, it ended in an American victory with a somewhat lower loss ratio (4:1).

Today I played "Aachen's Pall". As instructed, I first played with the Americans. At the end of the American turn #2 there was not a single German alive on the map: of course the game ended in an American Major victory. Then I switched sides: despite the presence of a second Sherman, the Americans lost both AFVs, never managed to cross the road to the building and never inflicted a single casualty on the Germans (which only suffered a Casualty Reduction during a Rally Phase).

I suppose the AI has read - and thoroughly absorbed - S.L.A. Marshall works about the use of firearms by men in combat




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by UP844 -- 5/12/2018 8:52:12 PM >


_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon
Post #: 1
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/13/2018 3:36:00 AM   
rico21

 

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You are the best player of TOTH.
Noone can do better results like you.
This is why, your advice is marginal and if you think do better, dare it.
We 're waiting yours scenarios.
Fun?

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 2
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/13/2018 11:58:38 AM   
UP844


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21

You are the best player of TOTH.
Noone can do better results like you.


I think I am a half-decent player, no more and no less. Having an opponent like the AI, which only takes about 20% of the fire opportunities it has, is a great help. In Kurhaus Clash AI infantry first moved in the open (and took some casualties), then didn't fire at all in the Advancing Fire Segment and was finally slaughtered in my own fire segment. I understand this can be really fun for some wannabe Joachim Peiper .

As regards to nobody getting better results than me, I would like to know whether I am the only one to get such endless strings of Major Victories.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21
This is why, your advice is marginal and if you think do better, dare it.
We 're waiting yours scenarios.
Fun?


I meant no criticism to the scenarios: I just wanted to point out that if one gets a Major Victory whatever the side he plays, there is something wrong. I understand the AI will never be as smart as the dumbest human player, but it looks a bit strange that, given the same starting situation, the human player always gets much better results than the AI.

Even though I am not a prolific author, I already published two scenarios: a SL conversion (Buchholz Station) and a larger scenario (Casa Berardi) that I made from scratch, doing extensive research.
Unfortunately, they are both affected by the same issue (whichever side you play, you end up slaughtering the opponent). I am revising "Casa Berardi" to see if I can make it a bit more balanced.

As for other scenarios, I am working on a campaign game (actually, a three-day long scenario) representing the battle for Cecina:

http://www.752tank.com/cecina.html


This is the draft map, obtained from U.S. topographical maps of the area:






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

(in reply to rico21)
Post #: 3
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/13/2018 12:33:20 PM   
slaphappypappy

 

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I get Major victories most of the time. However I have to play some scenarios more than once to get it.
Try Rico's latest, Jackson's Fire, and tell me you get a Major American Victory and I will want details as I have not come close.
Impossible scenario in my mind.

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 4
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/13/2018 12:58:10 PM   
Big Ivan


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UP844 I hear you and whole heartedly agree!!

Whatever side I play in a scenario I usually get a major victory
by a large percentage of the time.

With that having been said I for one am looking for an A/I that is a murdering son-of-a-beehive and I just don't
see it in this game yet.

_____________________________

Blitz call sign Ivan the Big.

(in reply to slaphappypappy)
Post #: 5
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/13/2018 2:08:41 PM   
rico21

 

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Ok, guys, here are some rico-rules:
1- Criticize the AI is criticize Peter, you do not have my permission to use my scenarios for this purpose.
2- To criticize the AI, you have my permission to use past and future scenarios of UP844 and Big Ivan.
3- In case of problems with these new rules please see this with my lawyer Slaphappypappy.

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 6
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/13/2018 2:36:10 PM   
Big Ivan


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That's funny rico21 I was under the impression that only Matrix can make rules as to what goes into a forum.

I'm making a statement about the game A/I and the game A/I only. Not anyone's scenario work. Think you missed something there.

Oh and I forgot to mention I win almost all the time with my scenarios too! Sorry I didn't mention that earlier.

Have a wonderful day Eric!

_____________________________

Blitz call sign Ivan the Big.

(in reply to rico21)
Post #: 7
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/13/2018 2:49:05 PM   
UP844


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Rico, I will gladly abide your rules, even though I believe all of use live in countries that allow the right of free speech.

I would like to point out that the issue can be easily proved by playing almost any scenario, starting from the very first tutorial to the Kursk campaign scenarios. As regards to the latter, I never managed to finish the third one, but the other always ended in a Major Victory for whatever side I played with. When I played "Psel River Bridgehead" with the Russians, I crossed the Bridge and went hunting German artillery (the only surviving German units) with SU-152s just to kill time until the scenario end.

Of course, there are scenarios that you cannot win, no matter how tough a player you are. The issue I pointed out - and that is confirmed by both slaphappypappy's and Big Ivan's posts - is that most times (i.e. not, always, but a significant number of times) you get a Major Victory regardless of the side you play.

I'm sorry you are taking it on a personal level but, as I previously stated, I did not intend to criticise any scenario or author. In my opinion, this is just a game mechanics issue. A big part of the losses the AI takes are due to the demise of broken units due to failure to rout: I understand that having the AI to be able to "think" about doing so is a very difficult - to say the least - undertaking. I do not see, however, the reason why the AI infantry units fire as any single bullet is billed to the soldier firing it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaphappypappy

I get Major victories most of the time. However I have to play some scenarios more than once to get it.
Try Rico's latest, Jackson's Fire, and tell me you get a Major American Victory and I will want details as I have not come close.
Impossible scenario in my mind.


I fully agree with you: some scenarios are tougher than others, and a few are utterly impossible to win for one side.
I have not yet played Rico's latest: I'm going to give it a try just now.


_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

(in reply to rico21)
Post #: 8
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/13/2018 4:31:25 PM   
kevinkin


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Maybe try SL or ASL via Vassel:

http://www.vassalengine.org/

There is a solution to AI and it's called human intelligence. If Vassel does not float your boat, find a game
like CMx2 and PBEM. You are beating the AI and a dead horse re: TOTH.

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 9
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/13/2018 4:44:26 PM   
rico21

 

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(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 10
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/13/2018 4:58:09 PM   
UP844


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaphappypappy

Try Rico's latest, Jackson's Fire, and tell me you get a Major American Victory and I will want details as I have not come close.
Impossible scenario in my mind.


I tried it on both sides: with the Americans, I tried two times: the first time, reckoning my chances to kill a Panther or Tiger were very slim, I made a straight, full speed charge towards the exit hexes without stopping at the end of the movement phase, the second time I stopped to fire in my Defensive Fire segments.
It made absolutely no difference: in both cases, I was slaughtered (read: lost 12 out of 12 Shermans) by the Germans by turn #3, without ever scratching the paint of a German tank,

When I played on the German side, I also managed to kill all the Shermans by turn #3, losing a single Panther (I suppose to a critical hit, since it was hit on the front hull by a 75mm Sherman at 14 hexes).

Unfortunately, the scenario has a minor bug: the M36's are supposed to arrive in the US reinforcement zone #4, but there is no such area. In my opinion, if you are playing with the Americans, they wouldn't do any difference: the Shermans will all be dead by the time they arrive and they would be even easier to destroy than Shermans; if you are playing with the Germans, you can achieve 15 VP and get a Major Victory.

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

(in reply to slaphappypappy)
Post #: 11
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/13/2018 5:23:44 PM   
rico21

 

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Attachment (1)

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 12
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/13/2018 5:36:52 PM   
UP844


Posts: 864
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Italy
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_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

(in reply to rico21)
Post #: 13
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/13/2018 5:41:48 PM   
UP844


Posts: 864
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From: Genoa, Italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin
You are beating the AI and a dead horse re: TOTH.


In my opinion, the horse is not yet dead and can still be saved

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

(in reply to kevinkin)
Post #: 14
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/13/2018 5:47:14 PM   
UP844


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From: Genoa, Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21
2- To criticize the AI, you have my permission to use past and future scenarios of UP844 and Big Ivan.


I did just that two years ago (the initial post is dated 5/12/2016):

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4080255&mpage=1



_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

(in reply to rico21)
Post #: 15
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/14/2018 3:58:48 AM   
slaphappypappy

 

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quote:

In my opinion, the horse is not yet dead and can still be saved


I wholeheartedly agree!!!

Let's keep it going!!


(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 16
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/14/2018 11:32:54 AM   
fuselex

 

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I do
Unsure about the finer details of any scenario,
But in the end I am enjoying the whole ToTH experience

(in reply to slaphappypappy)
Post #: 17
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/16/2018 3:25:31 PM   
UP844


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As previously requested, I used one of my scenarios (Buchholz Station, Squad Leader scenario #7).

The only actual kill ratios like these that come to my mind are those recorded in US/Iraqi tank engagements during the 1991 Gulf War.

The scenario was my very first one and certainly requires a thorough revision, making use of the latest options for AI conduct: I made several revised versions. I have been moderately successful in making the American AI tougher, by giving the halftrack and the .50 MG Kill orders to sit on the hill top. From there, the .50 HMG has the plain below well within its normal range (20 hexes) and life for a German attacker becomes a bit harder (in plain English: he will win anyway, but not so easily). Of course the .50 HMG and the HT become prime targets for the German, and once they are killed, the game reverts to the usual slaughter of innocents.
I still have to find some way to make the German AI a worthwile opponent (any suggestions -except doubling the number of units in the German OOB and adding a platoon of Tigers - are welcome).




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

(in reply to fuselex)
Post #: 18
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/16/2018 4:40:19 PM   
rico21

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21

Ok, guys, here are some rico-rules:
1- Criticize the AI is criticize Peter, you do not have my permission to use my scenarios for this purpose.
2- To criticize the AI, you have my permission to use past and future scenarios of UP844 and Big Ivan.
3- In case of problems with these new rules please see this with my lawyer Slaphappypappy.

Erratum...
2- To criticize the AI, you have my permission to use past and future scenarios of UP844, Big Ivan and LN59.

(in reply to rico21)
Post #: 19
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/16/2018 4:53:39 PM   
fuselex

 

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As always UP844
your contribution to the game is outstanding.

`In my opinion, the horse is not yet dead and can still be saved `

I have never felt the horse was on it`s last legs :)
I feel the game is just developing .
Thank you Peter for your dedication.
thanks to all who have taken the time from day one to help progress the game to the point it is now.
2 years later and it is a far better game than the released version.


I`m in no rush ,
Pretty sure Toth will be around in another couple of years , and I imagine Toth will have made big steps
forward
due to all

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 20
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/16/2018 4:57:00 PM   
fuselex

 

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And Generalissimo.
What can we say for your contribution




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Post #: 21
RE: Do you think this is fun? - 5/22/2018 2:38:52 PM   
rico21

 

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< Message edited by rico21 -- 5/22/2018 2:39:27 PM >

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 22
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