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Scenario information - 5/5/2018 1:05:46 PM   
Mike McCreery


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Hello all,

Playing Dabigbabes C, scenario 29, map with stacking limits, with the new asia roads map, latest beta patch.

In this scenario the Australian divisions start as Brigades with no ability to combine into divisions. Is there a way to determine if any time in the future they are going to change TOE to allow combination?



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RE: Scenario information - 5/5/2018 3:44:54 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

Hello all,

Playing Dabigbabes C, scenario 29, map with stacking limits, with the new asia roads map, latest beta patch.

In this scenario the Australian divisions start as Brigades with no ability to combine into divisions. Is there a way to determine if any time in the future they are going to change TOE to allow combination?




The asterisk to the left (I think) of the unit name in the LCU list shows it's a sub-unit that can be later combined. I don't know of another way. Might be something in Tracker, but I have never delved deeply into the LCU management available there.

An aside. I played one DBB game with a guy who knew the scenario backwards and forwards. I did not. He sank Saratoga at the pier on the first turn, before I entered orders, but what led to my auto-vic loss was him putting about 8 IDs into eastern Oz in 1942 when the Aussies had no chance to defend such a sledgehammer. The DBB team thought continental invasions were ridiculous, and they made DBB hew to history. An historic Aussie OOB is fine if the game goes sorta like history. If the Japan player wants to flood the zone it won't go well.

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The Moose

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RE: Scenario information - 5/5/2018 4:58:06 PM   
Lowpe


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No, they don't form into divisions, I read this thread soo long ago:

Here is the official reason:

Because we prefer to focus on the war in the "Pacific" aspect of the game. Australia's operational space does not require 'Divisions'. Australian divisions were constantly changing; they might have 2, 3 or 4 brigades under command, and an equally variable amount of arty, so how to deal with that? We just gave some DivHQs and a bunch of brigades that can come and go as they please. This is a much more flexible arrangement for Australia's wartime tasks; both at home, and in her 'out-deployed' operational area.

Used correctly, a DivHQ, 3 brigades and integral Div Arty Bns will stand up to a 'division' stack. The 'a div beats 3 rgts every time' stuff is urban legend and simply not true. Michaelm has been very good about tweaking the combat algorithm and casualty calculations, to make them more adaptively realistic. Mathematically valid statistical analysis shows a 3% differential in casualty rates between a fully formed division and a division consisting of constituent units, when the aggregates are rationally related. Given the code algorithm, this is exactly what would be expected, mathematically.

Since there is simply no difference, why not let Aus/NZ retain the operational flexibility they actually enjoyed?

Matt


And:

In our scenarios, TOE upgrades are tagged to the highest echelon level of a unit's "parent". Where Br/Rgt is highest echelon for an LCU, TOE upgrades happen with respect to those particular echelons. The changing configurations of individual brigade structures is another reason we chose to represent Australian forces in this manner.

Matt

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RE: Scenario information - 5/5/2018 7:41:59 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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I'm not sure this explanation holds together when smaller-unit COs are considered. I guess you can spend the PPs to try to find great COs for each brigade, but it's a lot easier to find one great division CO. A division strat moving with its arty, engineers, and assorted stuff is also a lot easier to coordinate on an arrival basis in a hex.

In my loss game I also found the armor units arrive almost completely disabled, and not near the east coast. Historic I'm sure, but added greatly to my inability to stop a steamroller Japan invasion.

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The Moose

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RE: Scenario information - 5/5/2018 10:25:58 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I'm not sure this explanation holds together when smaller-unit COs are considered. I guess you can spend the PPs to try to find great COs for each brigade, but it's a lot easier to find one great division CO. A division strat moving with its arty, engineers, and assorted stuff is also a lot easier to coordinate on an arrival basis in a hex.

In my loss game I also found the armor units arrive almost completely disabled, and not near the east coast. Historic I'm sure, but added greatly to my inability to stop a steamroller Japan invasion.


I wondered about that too. I found AndyMac mentioning that to overcome Australian order of battle problems he decided to allow divisions because as the game progresses it becomes a division based. To counter this he restricted the production of advanced troop types...if I recall each new infantry type has a lower production rate than the previous one.

Perhaps this changed? Perhaps leaders are augmented? I believe it is roughly 410 pp to buy a brigade. Symon also mentions the artillery research and crafting it carefully in each brigade.

Were you playing a scenario 2 style game?




< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/6/2018 12:07:07 PM >

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
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RE: Scenario information - 5/6/2018 12:04:51 AM   
BBfanboy


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Joined: 8/4/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I'm not sure this explanation holds together when smaller-unit COs are considered. I guess you can spend the PPs to try to find great COs for each brigade, but it's a lot easier to find one great division CO. A division strat moving with its arty, engineers, and assorted stuff is also a lot easier to coordinate on an arrival basis in a hex.

In my loss game I also found the armor units arrive almost completely disabled, and not near the east coast. Historic I'm sure, but added greatly to my inability to stop a steamroller Japan invasion.


I wondered about that too. I found AndyMac mentioning that to overcome Australian order of battle problems he decided to allow divisions because as the game progresses it becomes a division based. To counter this he restricted the production of advanced troop types...if I recall each new infantry type has a lower production rate than the previous one.

Perhaps this changed? Perhaps leaders are augmented? I believe it is roughly 100 pp to buy a brigade, as compared to 400 for a division...this from Symon I didn't double check. Symon also mentions the artillery research and crafting it carefully in each brigade.

Were you playing a scenario 2 style game?


I just checked in my game where I have already combined the Aussie brigades into a division and then split them to fill out faster. For one third of the division the PP cost was 542 (and not yet completely filled out), so 1600-1800 PP for the Division if you bought it fully filled out.

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RE: Scenario information - 5/6/2018 12:31:09 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe



Perhaps this changed? Perhaps leaders are augmented? I believe it is roughly 100 pp to buy a brigade, as compared to 400 for a division...this from Symon I didn't double check. Symon also mentions the artillery research and crafting it carefully in each brigade.

Were you playing a scenario 2 style game?





It was the DBB with stacking limits (my first time with those too), but not reduced cargo. I don't remember the number. It was a debacle. A lot my fault, but he had played it many times and hyper-optimized the first months. Every exit from the killing bowl was plugged with the exact amount of fore to take hundreds of escaping ships. He isolated Soerbaja within about a week, removing a sub base. And he aggressively hunted in the deep south, forcing me to hide out-of-fuel fleet units at dot bases, and try to sneak a few off to Port Stanley.

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The Moose

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RE: Scenario information - 5/6/2018 8:10:43 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I'm not sure this explanation holds together when smaller-unit COs are considered. I guess you can spend the PPs to try to find great COs for each brigade, but it's a lot easier to find one great division CO. A division strat moving with its arty, engineers, and assorted stuff is also a lot easier to coordinate on an arrival basis in a hex.

In my loss game I also found the armor units arrive almost completely disabled, and not near the east coast. Historic I'm sure, but added greatly to my inability to stop a steamroller Japan invasion.


Both the methodology and results of the testing were posted on the public forum by Symon. Those interested in the issue can look up the relevant posts.

As to your specific point re leaders, that is an issue more relevant when splitting a unit into 3 subcomponents. Brigades which are set up in the editor as the parent unit are allocated a "proper" leader by the scenario designer. From memory this is part of the properly structured reference made by Symon re the DaBabes scenarios.

Alfred

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 8
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