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Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/3/2018 5:46:44 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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The Art of War for the Japanese?

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 5/4/2018 8:08:41 PM >
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RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/4/2018 1:20:06 AM   
MakeeLearn

 

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Although tedious and time consuming, pilot skill micromanagement will give a razor sharp edge to the outnumbered air forces of the Japanese Empire.

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RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/4/2018 1:46:20 AM   
MakeeLearn

 

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"Foreknowledge cannot be gotten from ghosts and spirits, cannot be had by analogy, cannot be found out by calculation. It must be obtained from people, people who know the conditions of the enemy."

And those people are the ones who RECON and SEARCH - they will build the foundation that your decisions will be built upon. Will it be built upon rock or sand.



< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 5/4/2018 1:00:39 PM >

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RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/4/2018 2:34:43 AM   
PaxMondo


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I tend to agree with the recon and NavSearch. IJ Intel doesn't exist, so you have to make your own. Dinah III is my best friend. Jake is a close 2nd along with the G3M3 - 26 hexes of range and you get a lot of IJN bomber groups ... the down side is the supply usage ... it is measurable, but I cannot see without it ...

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RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/5/2018 1:10:25 PM   
Lowpe


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Japan has several unique units that are fun/useful.

There is a JNAF ENG unit with aviation support and 60 naval supply (35th?) from the start of the game.

Early on there are very few mobile CD/DP artillery units. Use them wisely.

Three mine laying subs, the 14 knot guys.

The training cruisers are super useful ships. TF leader for early invasions, shore bombardment, torpedo soaks for Tonan Whalers, and then as super escorts after their 1944 upgrade.

The CS/BB conversion creates the best AA platform Japan has fully upgraded.

Japan should be swimming in AR and AD.

Rocket Artillery units (3) are very neat.

Armored Car units are very useful on atolls as they are always the last targeted by shore bombardments.

Japan is always short engineers and aviation support...until they aren't anymore.

Use Pool devices to somewhat restrict spurious builds and supply wastage.

Forts help protect against strategic bombing.

You can never have enough Sams, Franks, George and Jacks...until you get Shinden and Ki94II that is.

Allied troops always move faster than you.

Always have a mobile reserve...with ships and by air.

Midget subs have a use, I just haven't figured it out yet.



< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/5/2018 1:11:33 PM >

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RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/5/2018 7:18:22 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

Three mine laying subs, the 14 knot guys.


Four, but the mines are limited to 45/month. Edit: make that 35/month. Sorry my bad.

quote:

The training cruisers are super useful ships. TF leader for early invasions, shore bombardment, torpedo soaks for Tonan Whalers, and then as super escorts after their 1944 upgrade.




quote:

The CS/BB conversion creates the best AA platform Japan has fully upgraded.


Yamato's? At any rate they add 22 CAP fighters each.Edit: Yamato's get 12 large caliber AAA per side in one of their last upgrades. More than any other Japanese vessel.

quote:

Japan is always short engineers and aviation support...until they aren't anymore.


Haven't gotten there as yet.

quote:

Forts help protect against strategic bombing.


Didn't know that.

quote:

Midget subs have a use, I just haven't figured it out yet.


Build them at an invaded base and go after the transports? Maybe???

< Message edited by rustysi -- 5/12/2018 8:01:23 PM >


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 6
RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/9/2018 3:23:30 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Midget subs have a use, I just haven't figured it out yet.


They will die in droves, but can be effective in dealing damage to amphibious TFs that are stuck in unloading mode. They also use up Allied ASW munitions and OPS points to allow greater access to 'real' submarines.

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RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/9/2018 4:06:57 PM   
Chickenboy


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From Shattered Sword:

"...the only way for the Japanese to avoid being outnumbered and ambushed by a suddenly appearing enemy carrier task force that "wasn't supposed to be there" was to bring the entirety of their own carrier force to every major operation."

In other words, The Japanese had exactly two strategic goals in the Pacific: Those objectives that required the use of all of the Kido Butai and those that required none.

Do not dissipate your carrier strike forces.

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RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/9/2018 6:59:38 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

The CS/BB conversion creates the best AA platform Japan has fully upgraded.


Yuk.

Losing the big guns in exchange for some more floatplanes and dozens of semi-useless 25mm guns isn't worth it IMO.

It would be a different story if they were the 10cm or the 12.7cm DP guns. I do see their value as an stand-in CVE if you base Rufe/Rex on them.

However, they're too long converting and Japan's always chronicly short of good surface combat vessals to take them off the line.

(in reply to Lowpe)
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RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/10/2018 12:15:09 AM   
Alpha77

 

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Not sold on the BB conversions too. They only have floatplanes ? Then naaahh. Too unreliable. Yes, I would have more with 10cm guns, HOWEVER the gun is underrated in the game database.

CLs.. for bombardements suck, their guns are too weak and low numbers, while pretty ok vs. DDs and such. Damn shame that Agano is not better, it looks good, but...underarmed/armored. At least fuel usage is ok. I tend to think that all IJN CLs are "throw away" ships for high risk mission. While the CAs I wanna spare, but how to get exp for them "on the cheap"? Except the 4 older ones, not much in terms of upgrade so I put them in same category like the CLs, whcih make a good "high risk mission" force...

Dissipating carrier force, problem is differing speeds

SSX I found to be fun, I have used up lots of them with nothing to show for, except last turn:

Submarine attack near Lunga at 114,138

Japanese Ships
SSX Ha-29

Allied Ships
xAK Steel Traveler, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

xAK Steel Traveler is sighted by SSX Ha-29
SSX Ha-29 launches 2 torpedoes at xAK Steel Traveler

(only a mid size ship, the Allies have 100s of these)

Later this SSX was sunk by a single DC hit :(



< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 5/10/2018 12:20:32 AM >

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RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/11/2018 8:32:54 PM   
ny59giants_MatrixForum


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Tracker - Must have to run the economy

Fast Transport TFs - Can be very effective in grabbing light to non-defended bases that can speed up your tempo. Once empty, that they act like a SC TF.

Re-sized air groups - Unless there is a HR against it, lots of 24 plane FP groups training pilots.

< Message edited by ny59giants_MatrixForum -- 5/11/2018 8:33:21 PM >

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Post #: 11
RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/12/2018 8:09:59 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

The CS/BB conversion creates the best AA platform Japan has fully upgraded.


Yuk.

Losing the big guns in exchange for some more floatplanes and dozens of semi-useless 25mm guns isn't worth it IMO.

It would be a different story if they were the 10cm or the 12.7cm DP guns. I do see their value as an stand-in CVE if you base Rufe/Rex on them.

However, they're too long converting and Japan's always chronicly short of good surface combat vessals to take them off the line.



Sorry, but you're wrong here. These conversions are actually to a hybrid type of CV. It increases the vessels' heavy AAA from 8 tubes to 16. In addition its capacity of 22 A/C is for CV types. In my book that's 44 (two at a time may be converted) more CAP fighters. BTW the same may be done with the cruiser Mogami. It becomes an 11 A/C 'CV'. Don't recall the AAA configuration, but I don't believe there's a change.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 12
RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/12/2018 8:19:42 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

I tend to think that all IJN CLs are "throw away" ships for high risk mission.


This statement is extremely incorrect IMHO. Early on these vessels are quite useful when used properly. They are in fact Desron leaders. They have one search plane, very useful, especially for base bombardments. Not that the damage will be great, but early game what are you up against. All the more useful if you encounter PT's at a base as they will most often dispatch same for a later bombardment group that may be heavier.

Later they make good escort leaders, that is those that are not able to convert to CLAA's. So I say again to any Japanese player willing to listen... Its up to you to take everything you get and find a use for it. Don't throw anything away because you will need everything you get and then some.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 13
RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/12/2018 8:23:09 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

They will die in droves, but can be effective in dealing damage to amphibious TFs that are stuck in unloading mode. They also use up Allied ASW munitions and OPS points to allow greater access to 'real' submarines.


Dude, that's classified. You're given' it all away.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 14
RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/12/2018 11:28:34 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

The CS/BB conversion creates the best AA platform Japan has fully upgraded.


Yuk.

Losing the big guns in exchange for some more floatplanes and dozens of semi-useless 25mm guns isn't worth it IMO.

It would be a different story if they were the 10cm or the 12.7cm DP guns. I do see their value as an stand-in CVE if you base Rufe/Rex on them.

However, they're too long converting and Japan's always chronicly short of good surface combat vessals to take them off the line.



Sorry, but you're wrong here. These conversions are actually to a hybrid type of CV. It increases the vessels' heavy AAA from 8 tubes to 16. In addition its capacity of 22 A/C is for CV types. In my book that's 44 (two at a time may be converted) more CAP fighters. BTW the same may be done with the cruiser Mogami. It becomes an 11 A/C 'CV'. Don't recall the AAA configuration, but I don't believe there's a change.


AFAIK that's not actually the case. They remain BB, but with a much expanded aviation capacity.

Non CV hulls with avaition capacity are limited to floatplanes.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

(in reply to rustysi)
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RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/13/2018 12:58:23 PM   
Lowpe


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I converted one ship in my game with Tiemanj I recall...and they go to float plane operations only. Same with the cruiser change.

Here is the tracker sheet...I lack the patience to scroll thru my AAR to find the BB/CS conversion. It may vary by mod...perhaps John has done something here?




Attachment (1)

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RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/13/2018 1:00:14 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi
Its up to you to take everything you get and find a use for it. Don't throw anything away because you will need everything you get and then some.


Truer words were never spoken!

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RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/15/2018 7:38:47 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

Non CV hulls with avaition capacity are limited to floatplanes.


IRL as in the game these were in fact a 'hybrid CV'. IRL Japan did in fact convert at least one that I'm aware of, although I've no idea how well it preformed. I have seen it in one video of the war. If you look for it (I might later) you see there's an angled 'V' type flight deck laid over the aft of the ship. Sorry to say but its reality that proves you wrong. Other than to look for the ship, I'll respond no further. Maybe when I get to the point in the game where they're activated I'll post a screen shot. If I remember that is.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Lowpe)
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RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/15/2018 7:55:27 PM   
Skyros


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Looks like this?





Attachment (1)

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RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/15/2018 8:16:54 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Non CV hulls with avaition capacity are limited to floatplanes.


IRL as in the game these were in fact a 'hybrid CV'. IRL Japan did in fact convert at least one that I'm aware of, although I've no idea how well it preformed. I have seen it in one video of the war. If you look for it (I might later) you see there's an angled 'V' type flight deck laid over the aft of the ship. Sorry to say but its reality that proves you wrong. Other than to look for the ship, I'll respond no further. Maybe when I get to the point in the game where they're activated I'll post a screen shot. If I remember that is.


BBs Ise and Hyuga were converted to CV/BB hybrids. They were part of the IJN "Northern Force" that decoyed Halsey away from Leyte Gulf.
After sinking the IJN carriers, Halsey sent a cruiser TF to clean up cripples. The cruiser TF was forced to retreat when Ise and Hyuga came at them (because of their big guns, not their FPs)!

At about this time Halsey was forced to turn around and race back to Leyte Gulf to try and stop Kurita's Centre Force, so Halsey could not send his modern BBs to take out Ise and Hyuga and the latter escaped that night back to Japan. I think that was their only action after conversion (maybe because of fuel shortages).

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RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/15/2018 8:49:10 PM   
rustysi


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Not quite right, not quite wrong.

quote:

The ship's air group was intended to consist of a dozen each Yokosuka D4Y Suisei dive bombers (Allied reporting name "Judy"), modified for catapult launching,


This is from 'Wiki' and it doesn't look like they operated in that fashion, but they were intended to be on board. They however could not land on the short flight deck and would have to return to a land base or a carrier with them at sea. All said I'll take 22 Rex's, if I have to, flying LoCAP.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 21
RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/16/2018 7:43:12 AM   
Buckrock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
After sinking the IJN carriers, Halsey sent a cruiser TF to clean up cripples. The cruiser TF was forced to retreat when Ise and Hyuga came at them (because of their big guns, not their FPs)!

DuBose's cruiser/destroyer force was unaware of the approaching Japanese BB's when the decision was made to terminate further pursuit due to the low fuel state of the US destroyers. The last reports DuBose had received of the Japanese Bigboys was that they were over 40nm miles away and running like heck for home. DuBose then turned south at 2130 and ran at 25knots to rejoin his own CV TF by dawn so that he could refuel and reinforce the AA screen of the carriers.

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This was the only sig line I could think of.

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RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/16/2018 2:39:57 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
After sinking the IJN carriers, Halsey sent a cruiser TF to clean up cripples. The cruiser TF was forced to retreat when Ise and Hyuga came at them (because of their big guns, not their FPs)!

DuBose's cruiser/destroyer force was unaware of the approaching Japanese BB's when the decision was made to terminate further pursuit due to the low fuel state of the US destroyers. The last reports DuBose had received of the Japanese Bigboys was that they were over 40nm miles away and running like heck for home. DuBose then turned south at 2130 and ran at 25knots to rejoin his own CV TF by dawn so that he could refuel and reinforce the AA screen of the carriers.

That is a different narrative than the one I read. Sounds more plausible though!

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: Japanese Sun Tzu - 5/16/2018 5:41:50 PM   
Buckrock

 

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Yes, I'd seen similarly exciting narratives too but the various TF reports of that night made it clear that the Japanese force with the 2 BBs was believed to be still running away when the US pursuit was terminated.

From the War Diary of the pursuing US TF (commanded by DuBose of Cruiser Division 13)....

"At 2115, ComCruDiv 13 directed the group to retire. Destroyers did not have sufficient fuel for a high speed stern chase of the nearest targets that could be located. There were two groups of enemy ships 50 miles to the north, one consisting of 4-5 ships, the other of 2-3 ships. Both were on course North, at 20 knots. The night fighters had been of great assistance in furnishing information of those groups."

Unfortunately the US nightfighters lost contact with Ozawa's SAG (2 BB, 1 CL and a DD) when he turned south in an attempt to engage the reported enemy force that was beating up on the Hatsuzuki. It could have been an interesting night if not for DuBose's turn-back for fuel.

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This was the only sig line I could think of.

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Post #: 24
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