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Yet another bag of questions - 5/3/2018 9:42:53 AM   
L0ckAndL0ad


Posts: 67
Joined: 4/13/2018
From: Pale Blue Dot
Status: offline
Hi there! I've been reading this forum for years now, but started posting only recently. I feel rather confident in my overall understanding of WITP AE by now, but still got some questions that I cannot get a definitive answer to. I've seen many discussions on topics below, but the opinions I've seen are rather conflicting/not confident.

1. Pilot skills questions.

1.1 Is recon skill used when bombing to increase target's DL? Manual speaks of (random) non-recon planes using Experience, but it does not mention "skill" at all, even regarding recon planes.

quote:

»» If a recon aircraft type is flying a Recon Mission, the percentage
chance that any given unit will have its DL increased is equal to the
Experience of the pilot. If the DL is increased, it will increase by 4.
»» If a non-recon type plane is flying a Recon Mission, the percentage chance
that any given unit will have its DL increased is equal to the Experience
of the pilot divided by 2. If the DL is increased it will increase by 2.
»» If an air unit bombs any enemy target, the percentage chance that any
given unit in the target hex will have its DL increased is equal to the
Experience of the one pilot chosen at random to take reconnaissance
photos
divided by 2. If the DL is increased it will increase by 1.


1.2 Is NavS skill used when NavB, to find the target? Or just Experience/Fatigue/Morale & weather conditions (and random die rolls ofc)? The manual is pretty vague regarding this:

quote:

7.2.1.7.2 FAILURE TO FIND THE TARGET
Aircraft can fail to find their Targets due to bad weather en route to or over their target, or due
to the inability of the planes to locate their Target before they are forced to return to base due
to fuel constraints
.


1.3 NavB (or LowN when <2000ft) skill for ASW? I've seen this discussed a lot, but no one seems to be certain. I'm certain that I've seen my pilots patrolling on "Naval Search only" gain ASW _and_ NavB skills. But I'm not sure if they got NavB skills while attacking subs or if they attacked surface ships, I just wasn't able to trace this.

1.4 When planes (I'm talking fighters, mostly) attack at 100ft, do they use LowN/LowG skill for bombing accuracy, separately from using Strafing skill for gun attacks, correct?

2. Aircraft questions.

2.1 When MVR drops with higher altitude, does it also decrease cruise/max speed? I mean, most Allied planes have lower MVR than the Japanese planes anyway, but some have better max speed. I know how it works IRL, but how does it work in game? Does speed degrade with altitude, or MVR calculations are tied to speed anyway so it's a combination of factors that matters, so MVR degradation is enough to severely affect a/c performance?

2.2 Drop tanks + torpedoes. I've seen that most of the time both use "C" (centerline) mount, so.. Is it possible to carry both a torpedo and a drop tank? Or only when they use different mounts?


3. Missions.

3.1 I am yet to successfully recon an enemy TF. You can't set TF as a target for Recon, so it's at commander's discretion. The manual says:

quote:

Whenever a plane flying a recon Mission reaches its target hex or an air unit bombs a target,
every enemy ground unit, TF or base (not minefield) in the hex has a possibility of having its
DL increased by 1, 2 or 4.


I've had 7 F-4s (!!) and ~20 PBYs on Canton Island, all set to Recon (PBYs also had 70% NavSearch level set). And there was a 5 CV KB roaming 10-5 hexes away. Plus a Surface Combat TF, and an Invasion TF. No Recon flights took place in two days. I tried it in other places/instances too, but also no luck.

So how one does Recon enemy TF? I read historical records, Americans usually sent dedicated heavy LBA (like B-17 or B-24/USN version) to shadow enemy tfs, cuz PBYs were too fragile for "shadowing". So in WITP AE I thought setting some 4E (or an actual recon plane) for recon mission could be used to simulate "shadowing". Can't get it working tho.

3.2 Can't force Shore Bombardment TF to stay, even with "Remain on Station" and "0 reaction" and <50 TF leader aggression. It comes and bombs at night and then stays there, converting to Surface Combat TF. They have plenty of ammo. What am I doing wrong?

4. Misc.

As Allied player, how do you recon distant islands prior to raiding/invading them? It's April 1942 in my game. So far I came up with sending AVP/AV loaded with supplies to a nearby empty island + putting some recon trained PBYs there, separated into 3 sections, all set to recon (that should increase the amount of recon flights, right?) Also, I just got several Marine observation squadrons, but they lack recon planes (only 3 that can be based on a carrier), and there seems to be no production of them in near future. Any tips?

Thanks you!

< Message edited by L0ckAndL0ad -- 5/3/2018 9:48:11 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/3/2018 12:45:20 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 10517
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
I tried a Google search of the Forum and came up with a 2010 thread that basically asks the same thing and the two subsequent posts say the Recon skill helps and the Recon Skill likely is not used!
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2546750&mpage=1&key=�

In the manual designer notes at the end, it mentions that the pilot skills were added to enable more detailed management of pilots, but it sounded like there was not time to code everything because the manual has no detail on pilot skills. My personal experience is that Recon Skill (like NavS) increases the detail of the info you get. The stuff in the manual about Experience is a check to see whether any D/L increase at all is awarded. It could be that the detail I see with higher Recon Skill is just the check being passed more often and the D/L raised accordingly.

I will continue searching to see if Alfred has covered this topic.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to L0ckAndL0ad)
Post #: 2
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/3/2018 12:57:10 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 8345
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad

Hi there! I've been reading this forum for years now, but started posting only recently. I feel rather confident in my overall understanding of WITP AE by now, but still got some questions that I cannot get a definitive answer to. I've seen many discussions on topics below, but the opinions I've seen are rather conflicting/not confident.

1. Pilot skills questions.

1.1 Is recon skill used when bombing to increase target's DL? Manual speaks of (random) non-recon planes using Experience, but it does not mention "skill" at all, even regarding recon planes.

quote:

»» If a recon aircraft type is flying a Recon Mission, the percentage
chance that any given unit will have its DL increased is equal to the
Experience of the pilot. If the DL is increased, it will increase by 4.
»» If a non-recon type plane is flying a Recon Mission, the percentage chance
that any given unit will have its DL increased is equal to the Experience
of the pilot divided by 2. If the DL is increased it will increase by 2.
»» If an air unit bombs any enemy target, the percentage chance that any
given unit in the target hex will have its DL increased is equal to the
Experience of the one pilot chosen at random to take reconnaissance
photos
divided by 2. If the DL is increased it will increase by 1.


1.2 Is NavS skill used when NavB, to find the target? Or just Experience/Fatigue/Morale & weather conditions (and random die rolls ofc)? The manual is pretty vague regarding this:
quote:

7.2.1.7.2 FAILURE TO FIND THE TARGET
Aircraft can fail to find their Targets due to bad weather en route to or over their target, or due
to the inability of the planes to locate their Target before they are forced to return to base due
to fuel constraints
.


1.3 NavB (or LowN when <2000ft) skill for ASW? I've seen this discussed a lot, but no one seems to be certain. I'm certain that I've seen my pilots patrolling on "Naval Search only" gain ASW _and_ NavB skills. But I'm not sure if they got NavB skills while attacking subs or if they attacked surface ships, I just wasn't able to trace this.

1.4 When planes (I'm talking fighters, mostly) attack at 100ft, do they use LowN/LowG skill for bombing accuracy, separately from using Strafing skill for gun attacks, correct?

The devs have never stated that I know of, so any answer is pure conjecture IMO. I will simply state that in my pilot training program:
ground bomb pilots are also trained in recon as they frequently fly that mission prior to bombing mission to increase DL.
ditto naval bomb pilots with NavSearch/ASW. It is common for me to put the groups on a NavAttack mission with 10-40% NavSearch/ASW. Particularly FP groups. This allows the group to attack when something is spotted. There are risks to this, so you need to watch where/when you do it.
ASW is a separately trained skill.
100ft is strafing skill
1000 ft is low bomb (naval or ground)



quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad
2. Aircraft questions.

2.1 When MVR drops with higher altitude, does it also decrease cruise/max speed? I mean, most Allied planes have lower MVR than the Japanese planes anyway, but some have better max speed. I know how it works IRL, but how does it work in game? Does speed degrade with altitude, or MVR calculations are tied to speed anyway so it's a combination of factors that matters, so MVR degradation is enough to severely affect a/c performance?

2.2 Drop tanks + torpedoes. I've seen that most of the time both use "C" (centerline) mount, so.. Is it possible to carry both a torpedo and a drop tank? Or only when they use different mounts?

The devs have never commented on this (speed v altitude).
The game engine will allow this to happen in a mod, but it would be a major stretch of reality for most planes. Think about mission flight profiles, ordnance concussion, ordnance interference, ... very few, if any, planes of the era
could have been so loaded.


quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad
3. Missions.

3.1 I am yet to successfully recon an enemy TF. You can't set TF as a target for Recon, so it's at commander's discretion. The manual says:

quote:

Whenever a plane flying a recon Mission reaches its target hex or an air unit bombs a target,
every enemy ground unit, TF or base (not minefield) in the hex has a possibility of having its
DL increased by 1, 2 or 4.


I've had 7 F-4s (!!) and ~20 PBYs on Canton Island, all set to Recon (PBYs also had 70% NavSearch level set). And there was a 5 CV KB roaming 10-5 hexes away. Plus a Surface Combat TF, and an Invasion TF. No Recon flights took place in two days. I tried it in other places/instances too, but also no luck.

So how one does Recon enemy TF? I read historical records, Americans usually sent dedicated heavy LBA (like B-17 or B-24/USN version) to shadow enemy tfs, cuz PBYs were too fragile for "shadowing". So in WITP AE I thought setting some 4E (or an actual recon plane) for recon mission could be used to simulate "shadowing". Can't get it working tho.

3.2 Can't force Shore Bombardment TF to stay, even with "Remain on Station" and "0 reaction" and <50 TF leader aggression. It comes and bombs at night and then stays there, converting to Surface Combat TF. They have plenty of ammo. What am I doing wrong?

Recon is used for land targets ONLY. NavSearch is used for naval targets.
Bombardment is a special mission profile, a high speed run in, bombard, and a high speed exit. That is the definition. If you want something to stay, then choose a different mission profile.


quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad
4. Misc.

As Allied player, how do you recon distant islands prior to raiding/invading them? It's April 1942 in my game. So far I came up with sending AVP/AV loaded with supplies to a nearby empty island + putting some recon trained PBYs there, separated into 3 sections, all set to recon (that should increase the amount of recon flights, right?) Also, I just got several Marine observation squadrons, but they lack recon planes (only 3 that can be based on a carrier), and there seems to be no production of them in near future. Any tips?

Thanks you!

Catalinias with pilots that have high recon. Again, I tend to train my recon pilots with both recon/NavSearch skills as they will alternate between missions. You can also put recon pilots into 4E's, just remember when you that they will then be flagged as bomber pilots ....

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 5/3/2018 1:04:43 PM >


_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to L0ckAndL0ad)
Post #: 3
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/3/2018 1:50:53 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 10517
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
1.1 I could find nothing further on Recon Skill

1.2 You don't get to use NavB until the target is found. The AI launches the strike at a detected target, you do not get to pick the specific TF your aircraft will attack. So, you send out Naval Search which uses the NavS skill to find and ID the target. Better NavS skill = better info. Note that pilots with low NavS on a search mission will often clutter up your Sigint and Ops Reports with false sightings of your own ships/subs or imaginary enemy ships/subs, or just something in the water (oil, a disturbance, etc.).

Your search aircraft often carry a few bombs and once the target is detected, they MAY decide to attack the target as well. This applies whether a Sub or a Ship TF is spotted. You will get a line in the Operations Report saying the aircraft is attacking and often another line saying the target is HIT! Most of the time that second line is wishful thinking.

1.3 ASW as Pax Mondo says is a separate skill from NavS and Nav B or LowN. It incorporates both search and attack against subs in its own skill. Note that aircraft on ASW only search out to half the range you set, so if you set a patrol aircraft to ASW range 12 it only covers to range 6, because the search is more intensive. Again, the attack uses ASW skill NOT NavB or LowN (per Alfred), and the attack will be reported in the Ops Report with a chance of an overoptimistic HIT report line.
Forumites differ on the best altitude for ASW mission searches. I use 2000 to 4000 feet because I think detection of periscopes should be very difficult at higher altitudes, but other say they have no problem detecting subs from 10,000 feet. So experiment and decide for yourself.

1.4 To add to what PaxMondo said, 100' altitude triggers the Strafe attack part of the Air Combat model, but if your fighter is also carrying bombs it will drop them before, during or after the strafe attack. It is not clear to me if the bomb drop is built into the Strafe skill or if the AI switches to the LowG/LowN skill to calculate the bombing accuracy.
Similarly, if you set fighter altitude to 1000', the mission profile is LowG or LowN(using those bombing skills), but there can also be a strafing run or two in the attack (which may or may not use the Strafe Skill).

2.1 There is no data on speed changes with altitude, so I believe the air model does not include that kind of detail. It uses Altitude to determine who gets the "first pass" attack advantage, then the maneuver ratings to determine subsequent calculations. Pilot Experience and Air Skill is built into both sets of calculations AFAIK. Aircraft speed may play a part in determining if the aircraft with lower maneuver rating can escape from an attack.

2.2 I have never seen an aircraft carry both DTs AND Torpedoes. It's an either/or situation. I presume centreline bombs are also affected, but wing mounted bombs may also be reduced in size to accommodate the weight of the DT and extra fuel.

3.1 The only reason recon could detect a TF is if it is in a base hex, usually docked. You cannot recon a moving ship target. Use Naval Search for that and if you know approximately where the enemy is, set your search arcs to go straight to them. There is no "Shadowing" of targets in this game AFAIK, and it would be almost suicidal to shadow an enemy Carrier TF.

3.2 Bombardment TFs will bombard both night and day if you have a high enough D/L on the target hex (base, LCUs). Recon the hex at least one turn beforehand. Set your TF to bombard and "remain on station". Set some of your float planes to night ops and Recon, range 0, altitude 1000 feet (never had one of these shot down). Set the other FPs to daytime Recon range 0, altitude suitable for the AA threat. I often use 7000 feet for developed bases (to stay above balloons) and 3000 feet for small bases to stay above the Japanese 7.7mm AA MG.

4.0 You need to look at other aircraft. The F4F-3P is a recon type and you could equip a land based fighter squadron with it, but you would need to train Recon skill somewhat. The British Fulmar carries a camera and ELINT capability. You get one squadron with a very good B-25 recon aircraft with nice range, and there is a Lightning recon variant too. Much later you get a B-24 Recon type and even a B-29 type.
Some players also use "recon by bombing" to ID what is at a base. Bomb the airfield to learn what aircraft types are there and Ground Bomb to see what LCUs there are. It is somewhat "hit and miss" with this method!

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to L0ckAndL0ad)
Post #: 4
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/3/2018 2:21:06 PM   
L0ckAndL0ad


Posts: 67
Joined: 4/13/2018
From: Pale Blue Dot
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I tried a Google search of the Forum and came up with a 2010 thread that basically asks the same thing and the two subsequent posts say the Recon skill helps and the Recon Skill likely is not used!

In the manual designer notes at the end, it mentions that the pilot skills were added to enable more detailed management of pilots, but it sounded like there was not time to code everything because the manual has no detail on pilot skills. My personal experience is that Recon Skill (like NavS) increases the detail of the info you get. The stuff in the manual about Experience is a check to see whether any D/L increase at all is awarded. It could be that the detail I see with higher Recon Skill is just the check being passed more often and the D/L raised accordingly.

I will continue searching to see if Alfred has covered this topic.


Oh, please, don't bother with searches much for me! I did A LOT of searches over the years, and the last month or so when I started my new campaign. I'm pretty sure I've seen most of the answers. I was mostly looking for concrete stuff, which is rare or non-existent. I was wondering if I missed anything, but there's little chance of that. Personal experience is more important, tho! Like I have personally seen planes on NavSearch gain ASW skills, that's a pretty concrete way of telling it's used when the plane encounters a sub during the search.


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
100ft is strafing skill
1000 ft is low bomb (naval or ground)


Here's what I'm trying to understand. I managed to do this once:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Kure Island at 153,95

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 4 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 1 minutes

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 13

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
DD Yugumo, Shell hits 1, Bomb hits 5, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
13 x F4F-3 Wildcat bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 100 lb GP Bomb

Magazine explodes on DD Yugumo


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

F4F-3 profile says it carries 2 x 100 lb GP Bomb on normal distance. And the extended range loadout is empty! AFAIK, planes on Low missions that are not Attack bombers should use extended range loadout. Not sure why F4F-3 used bombs in such case, but it got me thinking - should I train them in LowG/LowN also? Fighters strafing smaller, agile ships was historically the most accurate way to do it, and the same is true in the game, but maybe I should also bother with Low bombing skills too?


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
Recon is used for land targets ONLY. NavSearch is used for naval targets.
But Recon missions should be able to spot TFs if they happen to be in, say, naval base hex, right?


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
Catalinias with pilots that have high recon. Again, I tend to train my recon pilots with both recon/NavSearch skills as they will alternate between missions. You can also put recon pilots into 4E's, just remember when you that they will then be flagged as bomber pilots ....


Thank you!

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 5
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/3/2018 2:39:31 PM   
L0ckAndL0ad


Posts: 67
Joined: 4/13/2018
From: Pale Blue Dot
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
3.2 Bombardment TFs will bombard both night and day if you have a high enough D/L on the target hex (base, LCUs). Recon the hex at least one turn beforehand. Set your TF to bombard and "remain on station". Set some of your float planes to night ops and Recon, range 0, altitude 1000 feet (never had one of these shot down). Set the other FPs to daytime Recon range 0, altitude suitable for the AA threat. I often use 7000 feet for developed bases (to stay above balloons) and 3000 feet for small bases to stay above the Japanese 7.7mm AA MG.

4.0 You need to look at other aircraft. The F4F-3P is a recon type and you could equip a land based fighter squadron with it, but you would need to train Recon skill somewhat. The British Fulmar carries a camera and ELINT capability. You get one squadron with a very good B-25 recon aircraft with nice range, and there is a Lightning recon variant too. Much later you get a B-24 Recon type and even a B-29 type.
Some players also use "recon by bombing" to ID what is at a base. Bomb the airfield to learn what aircraft types are there and Ground Bomb to see what LCUs there are. It is somewhat "hit and miss" with this method!


Yes, I just got those recon B-25s to India! Borrowing British Fulmars is a great idea! I really want something mobile and not heavy/service intensive. Thank you!

I've got another question!

It's April 1942 in my game, and the Japanese AI have taken Canton Island from me (on their 4th attempt!), and are pressing Port Moresby REALLY hard. I was able to sink quite a few of their naval invasion ships, but they keep coming and coming. I did not count, but off the top of my head I sunk around 25000 troops in total, both heading for PM and Canton.

Question is: should I retake the Canton Island, and should I keep defending Port Moresby? I read that player sometimes might "break the AI" by pushing it too hard. I try not to go beyond historical events much so far, but I'm worried I might do something that will break the AI scripting.

< Message edited by L0ckAndL0ad -- 5/3/2018 5:56:09 PM >

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 6
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/3/2018 3:00:29 PM   
dwesolick


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/24/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad


It's April 1942 in my game, and the Japanese AI have taken Canton Island from me (on their 4th attempt!), and are pressing Port Moresby REALLY hard. I was able to sink quite a few of their naval invasion ships, but they keep coming and coming. I did not count, but off the top of my head I sunk around 25000 troops in total, both heading for PM and Canton.

Question is: should I retake the Canton Island, and should I keep defending Port Moresby? I read that player sometimes might "break the AI" by pushing it too hard. I try not to go beyond historical events much so far, but I'm worried I might do something that will break the AI scripting.


I'm seeing the same thing regarding PM in my (ironman, #102 scenario) game. The AI keeps sending suicide fleets to PM. I'm thinking of switching to Head to Head and rerouting future AI tfs back to Truk.

_____________________________

"The Navy has a moth-eaten tradition that the captain who loses his ship is disgraced. What do they have all those ships for, if not to hurl them at the enemy?" --Douglas MacArthur

(in reply to L0ckAndL0ad)
Post #: 7
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/3/2018 3:10:49 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 7823
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad

1. Pilot skills questions.

1.1 Is recon skill used when bombing to increase target's DL? Manual speaks of (random) non-recon planes using Experience, but it does not mention "skill" at all, even regarding recon planes.

1.2 Is NavS skill used when NavB, to find the target? Or just Experience/Fatigue/Morale & weather conditions (and random die rolls ofc)? The manual is pretty vague regarding this:

1.3 NavB (or LowN when <2000ft) skill for ASW? I've seen this discussed a lot, but no one seems to be certain. I'm certain that I've seen my pilots patrolling on "Naval Search only" gain ASW _and_ NavB skills. But I'm not sure if they got NavB skills while attacking subs or if they attacked surface ships, I just wasn't able to trace this.

1.4 When planes (I'm talking fighters, mostly) attack at 100ft, do they use LowN/LowG skill for bombing accuracy, separately from using Strafing skill for gun attacks, correct?



1.1 - no. It is random and not related to the Recon skill. That is only used when the plane is flying the Recon missiong.

1.2 - I don't believe NavS is used at all in terms of finding the target while out on a NavB mission. I think failure to find the target is based on other factors, like the ones you mentioned.

1.3 - the only way they would have gained ASW/NavB skill-ups, assuming no "general" training was being done in addition to NavS, is if they attacked a sub or ship while out on search. This would not happen all that often, but if you are paying close enough attention you might see it.

1.4 - Attacks at 100 feet use Strafe (including bombs). Attacks at 1000 feet use LowG/LowN according to mission type. Note that attack bombers will drop to 100 feet to strafe if you set them at 1000 altitude.

quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad

2. Aircraft questions.

2.1 When MVR drops with higher altitude, does it also decrease cruise/max speed? I mean, most Allied planes have lower MVR than the Japanese planes anyway, but some have better max speed. I know how it works IRL, but how does it work in game? Does speed degrade with altitude, or MVR calculations are tied to speed anyway so it's a combination of factors that matters, so MVR degradation is enough to severely affect a/c performance?

2.2 Drop tanks + torpedoes. I've seen that most of the time both use "C" (centerline) mount, so.. Is it possible to carry both a torpedo and a drop tank? Or only when they use different mounts?



2.1 - no, max/cruise speed is not impacted by altitude. Maneuver is an abstraction of both agility and speed; the changes in maneuver at various altitudes reflect that.

2.2 - There are 2 ways to check this. First way is in the game, set the unit to have drop tanks and use torpedoes on naval attack. Then click on the "Aircraft Data" text in the lower left. If you no longer see a torpedo mounted, then the plane can't use both. The other way is to look in the database.

quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad

3. Missions.

3.1 I am yet to successfully recon an enemy TF. You can't set TF as a target for Recon, so it's at commander's discretion. The manual says:

quote:

Whenever a plane flying a recon Mission reaches its target hex or an air unit bombs a target,
every enemy ground unit, TF or base (not minefield) in the hex has a possibility of having its
DL increased by 1, 2 or 4.


I've had 7 F-4s (!!) and ~20 PBYs on Canton Island, all set to Recon (PBYs also had 70% NavSearch level set). And there was a 5 CV KB roaming 10-5 hexes away. Plus a Surface Combat TF, and an Invasion TF. No Recon flights took place in two days. I tried it in other places/instances too, but also no luck.

So how one does Recon enemy TF? I read historical records, Americans usually sent dedicated heavy LBA (like B-17 or B-24/USN version) to shadow enemy tfs, cuz PBYs were too fragile for "shadowing". So in WITP AE I thought setting some 4E (or an actual recon plane) for recon mission could be used to simulate "shadowing". Can't get it working tho.

3.2 Can't force Shore Bombardment TF to stay, even with "Remain on Station" and "0 reaction" and <50 TF leader aggression. It comes and bombs at night and then stays there, converting to Surface Combat TF. They have plenty of ammo. What am I doing wrong?


3.1 - you can not target an enemy TF with Recon. Recon only targets specific hexes. The bit in the manual that you quoted has to do with planes flying Recon or bombing missions in that hex having a chance to increase the detection of LCUs, TFs, or the base in that hex by 1, 2, or 4 - this is an incidental effect.

You should use Naval Search to detect enemy TFs. The "shadowing" of enemy TFs by naval search planes is abstracted by increasing the DL of those TFs.

3.2 - if they still have plenty of ammo after bombarding, then you do not have a high enough DL on the target. Set Recon planes to target the hex, and set any float planes on the ships to be flying at night on the Recon mission (they will act as spotter planes when launched).

It is rare, but sometimes a bombardment TF will bombard during the day phase.

quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad

4. Misc.

As Allied player, how do you recon distant islands prior to raiding/invading them? It's April 1942 in my game. So far I came up with sending AVP/AV loaded with supplies to a nearby empty island + putting some recon trained PBYs there, separated into 3 sections, all set to recon (that should increase the amount of recon flights, right?) Also, I just got several Marine observation squadrons, but they lack recon planes (only 3 that can be based on a carrier), and there seems to be no production of them in near future. Any tips?

Thanks you!


Later in the war, there are recon versions of army Liberators (for both USAAF and USMC/USN units). Among other long-ranged options.

You can also attempt to use the accumulated Signal Intelligence to get an idea for what is where.

April 1942 is very early - as you've found out, you don't have much in the way of assets to reconnoiter enemy bases.

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Post #: 8
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/3/2018 8:43:26 PM   
JeffroK


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3.2 Set your Bombardment TF to "Do not withdraw". It will automatically revert to a SCTF.
You should be able to retask it to Bombardment on the following turn, and latr in the game you get support shipping to replenish it.

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Post #: 9
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/3/2018 10:23:44 PM   
Lowpe


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Mvr/Speed/Altitude: I had a developer chime in on my Tiemanj AAR commenting on this. They had access to data about speed/altitude (he posted several nice graphics on the P-47).

There was discussion about adopting this in the engine but simply was not enough coding time given other design priorities. Lok is correct in his very succinct statement on the abstraction used...and it does work very well imho and even better I think when used with Symon's air mod.


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Post #: 10
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/4/2018 5:17:09 AM   
L0ckAndL0ad


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From: Pale Blue Dot
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Thank you everyone, you are amazingly helpful!

Any tips on the possible AI breaking problems I described in post #6?

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Post #: 11
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/4/2018 5:22:15 AM   
Dili

 

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Playing with waypoints and distance a TF can be forced to do bombardement by day. Let's say a TF moves 6 hexes by half turn, you make it move 7 hexes to the target and it will bombard by day.

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Post #: 12
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/4/2018 10:38:35 AM   
tarkalak

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad
...

Here's what I'm trying to understand. I managed to do this once:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Kure Island at 153,95

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 4 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 1 minutes

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 13

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
DD Yugumo, Shell hits 1, Bomb hits 5, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
13 x F4F-3 Wildcat bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 100 lb GP Bomb

Magazine explodes on DD Yugumo


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

F4F-3 profile says it carries 2 x 100 lb GP Bomb on normal distance. And the extended range loadout is empty! AFAIK, planes on Low missions that are not Attack bombers should use extended range loadout. Not sure why F4F-3 used bombs in such case, but it got me thinking - should I train them in LowG/LowN also? Fighters strafing smaller, agile ships was historically the most accurate way to do it, and the same is true in the game, but maybe I should also bother with Low bombing skills too?

...


I think that the LowN attacks by Level Bombers only get their loadout reduced to half. So fighters should still be able to LowN with full loadout.

I don't have the manual in font of me to check.

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Post #: 13
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/4/2018 12:15:08 PM   
dwesolick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad

Thank you everyone, you are amazingly helpful!

Any tips on the possible AI breaking problems I described in post #6?


If you switch to H to H you can reroute the AI's ships plus do other "maintenance" items like filling up airgroups, making sure bases have supply, etc. This can really help the AI.
Shouldn't break it either. Sometimes it gets stuck or obsessed about a target to its detriment. In a previous game, the AI kept sending small invasion convoys to Geraldton (I know, Geraldton, Australia..."We must have Geraldton! And, after that, PORTLAND! We'll show those Yankees!") But I went in and rerouted the latest convoy (and did some other housekeeping stuff) and after that the AI was fine. Only took one turn. Oh, and if you keep the difficulty setting on "Hard" it will help the AI supply situation by keeping its far-flung bases supplied.

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Post #: 14
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/7/2018 1:07:07 PM   
L0ckAndL0ad


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From: Pale Blue Dot
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I came up with more questions!

- I know that fortifications help defend against naval bombardments. But do they help against air raids (like having a/c shelters etc)? Or is it just the size of the AF that matters? (bigger = harder to damage)

- What is everyone's preferred way of setting up mission profiles for USN carriers in 1942, before the fighter drop tanks?

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Post #: 15
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/7/2018 4:15:32 PM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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Forts do help against bombing, but not as much as good defensive terrain.
When you build forts first and then the port or airfield, the latter two take longer to build because the forts are extended (at the same level) to cover the larger facilities. So the runways get a bit tougher because of their construction (solid base, perforated steel or pavement/concrete topping) but the Airfield facilities get things like concrete buildings and bunkers and individual revetments for aircraft.

Not sure what you mean about mission profile. If you mean range, don't let your SBDs go beyond escort range unless the target is helpless.

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Post #: 16
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/14/2018 9:20:31 AM   
L0ckAndL0ad


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Aaand another question.

Is "mission" speed/"cruise" TF speed a map-only setting? Does it have any effect on actual combat? Meaning, does it only affect map movement speed? I'm having doubts, because when you set TF to cruise speed, and open up ship info for any ship of that TF, the max speed in the profile page is changed to be the same as cruise speed.

The manual says:

quote:

Most sub attacks will use torpedoes only, but the sub may conserve torpedoes and use its deck
gun against unescorted non-combat ships. The effectiveness of a TF’s escort is determined
by its:
1. Maximum speed
2. Crew Experience
3. ASW Weapons
4. The total number of escorts in the TF


So I'm wondering. Say, I want some convoys to run only cruise speed, to limit their operational damage. But I know for a fact that it will put "max speed" of all ships of that convoy, including escorts, to be the same as cruise speed. So.. will it actually limit their combat abilities? Or if when they might actually stumble upon surface combatants?

< Message edited by L0ckAndL0ad -- 5/14/2018 9:22:13 AM >

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Post #: 17
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/14/2018 1:49:18 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 10517
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad

Aaand another question.

Is "mission" speed/"cruise" TF speed a map-only setting? Does it have any effect on actual combat? Meaning, does it only affect map movement speed? I'm having doubts, because when you set TF to cruise speed, and open up ship info for any ship of that TF, the max speed in the profile page is changed to be the same as cruise speed.

The manual says:

quote:

Most sub attacks will use torpedoes only, but the sub may conserve torpedoes and use its deck
gun against unescorted non-combat ships. The effectiveness of a TF’s escort is determined
by its:
1. Maximum speed
2. Crew Experience
3. ASW Weapons
4. The total number of escorts in the TF


So I'm wondering. Say, I want some convoys to run only cruise speed, to limit their operational damage. But I know for a fact that it will put "max speed" of all ships of that convoy, including escorts, to be the same as cruise speed. So.. will it actually limit their combat abilities? Or if when they might actually stumble upon surface combatants?

you may have heard this before: it depends!
Mission speed uses cruise speed until the situation suggests the use of Full Speed for part of the journey (e.g., a bombardment mission will normally move up to sprint distance from the target at cruise speed, then switch to full speed to sprint in and out of the target area).

Setting the TF to cruise speed means you have ordered that Full Speed not be used. So in the bombardment TF example, there would be no sprinting in to target and out again. Because full speed has been forbidden, it does not show up as the TF Full Speed setting.

However ... when in extreme peril the TF commander may ignore your orders and go to full speed anyway.

Off-map, there are no dangers to cause the TF to use Full Speed, so it should not matter whether you set Mission Speed or Cruise Speed - the TF progress and fuel usage will be the same.
It is possible to use Full Speed between Off Map points (like EC-USA to CT) without any fuel usage or damage from high speed steaming, but many players consider this "gamey". Traveling between Off-Map and On-Map points (e.g. CT to Columbo) uses fuel and incurs damage as if the TF was still On-Map.

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Post #: 18
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/14/2018 1:55:27 PM   
Barb


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From: Bratislava, Slovakia
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The task forces usually sail on the speed of the slowest ship and at cruise speed (until forced to run at Maximum by order or reaction/evasion).
Maximum speed setting is "forceful" use of that speed.

So in case of the convoy/submarine encounter, it simply states that the DE/E/APD/... with Maximum speed of 29kts will be more effective in detection/pursuit of sub than a KV/PC/PB with maximum speed of 15kts. This is based on the real capabilities of the escorts in Atlantic. A Flower class corvette could remain only few hours to prosecute a contact before being forced to return to convoy - and yet took even more hours to return (each 1 hour at the place will add 1 hours to regain convoy for 8kts convoy and 16kts Flower or 40 minutes for River class frigate). Thus faster ships were often left to keep the sub contact at bay, while the convoy escaped.


The TF setting will not ruin this calculation, so Mission vs Cruise setting for convoys and submarine combat should be irrelevant.

Totally different with surface combatants - while the combat itself (the combat screen) uses max speed and MVR rating of each ship independently, disengagement/escape of the TF is based on the leader, weather, etc, and maximum speed, the Cruise speed TF setting decreases chances of the convoy to move hexes outside the combat - thus increases the chance of enemy surface TF (re)engaging at all.

< Message edited by Barb -- 5/14/2018 1:56:52 PM >


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Post #: 19
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/14/2018 9:25:07 PM   
L0ckAndL0ad


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From: Pale Blue Dot
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Yeah, actually, I just watched the 3rd episode of Victory at Sea. It never crossed my mind that escorts might act at combat speed much more frequently and even without present enemy contact. They might even go depth charge some whales or something. So they still need good speed even in backwater areas.

Thank you all!

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Post #: 20
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/15/2018 6:50:49 AM   
Barb


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From: Bratislava, Slovakia
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IRL the escorts were zig-zagging around the convoy which also underwent frequent course changes (for convoy say a dawn change to escape possible pre-positioned sub, or evasive change to evade a contact). The escorts zigged around the convoy to both present harder targets and to cover more space with their detection gear (radar/sonar/hydrophone). Thus the minimal speed difference between the convoy speed and escorts was around 5-6 kts (Slow convoys often sailed at around 6-7kts speed, while normal convoys sailed at around 8kts, fast convoys were anything faster - one example being fast tanker convoys from Carribean to Gibraltar/Med that sailed at 12-14kts). The escorts had to have a good margin of speed advantage to perform their tasks - zig-zag, investigate contacts around, pick up survivors, round-up stragglers, escort detachments, force detected subs under, keep them suppressed while the convoy passed, investigate distress signals, carry out searches (for downed aviators, etc), ... all resulting in momentarily weakening of convoy escort and delay to get back into position. As each ship had different speed/fuel situation this required a close attention by Escort Commander - who had to plug holes in his screen by constantly shifting screen around.

That is the reason you see a number of "escorts joining" and "escorts leaving" convoys at the first stage of battle of Atlantic - without permanent groups, no underway refueling and reinforcements dispatched as available to threatened convoy - and continuous shifting of escort commander responsibilities with each more senior officer available at the convoy (headache in itself). See Convoy_HX_79 as an example.

One of the best description of the escort vessel responsibilities and tasks, along with the decisions faced by the escorts I recommend reading "The Cruel Sea" - by Nicholas Monsarrat. Although a novel, it is one of the best accounts of the life on the escort vessel (Flower class corvette and River class Frigate).

I know the situation at the Pacific is a bit different - or was at least IRL with Japan unable to organize larger convoys in the early years, proper convoy escort organization being organized only much later and with their own problems (radar advantage on the side of the subs not the escorts as in Atlantic, etc). But most of the problems related to Atlantic escorts are still valid to Japanese/Allied convoys in Pacific too. (Like statistical analysis showed that it is more beneficial to have less large and well protected convoys than to have more smaller and less protected convoys, that convoys could actually became offensive weapon by attracting subs to a place where escorts can attack them, etc...).

Did someone notice that subs try to avoid ASW task forces in the game? (example: set up two 4 ship ASW TFs to patrol hex with enemy subs, react 2, ... for several turns they avoid each other...). Tried to pass single cargo ship with strong escort and voila, a sub attack is there (merchant sunk, but so is the sub).

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Post #: 21
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/15/2018 12:18:40 PM   
dwesolick


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/24/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

One of the best description of the escort vessel responsibilities and tasks, along with the decisions faced by the escorts I recommend reading "The Cruel Sea" - by Nicholas Monsarrat. Although a novel, it is one of the best accounts of the life on the escort vessel (Flower class corvette and River class Frigate).



+1
OUTSTANDING book!

_____________________________

"The Navy has a moth-eaten tradition that the captain who loses his ship is disgraced. What do they have all those ships for, if not to hurl them at the enemy?" --Douglas MacArthur

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Post #: 22
RE: Yet another bag of questions - 5/15/2018 12:56:59 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 6047
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tarkalak

quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad
...

Here's what I'm trying to understand. I managed to do this once:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Kure Island at 153,95

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 4 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 1 minutes

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 13

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
DD Yugumo, Shell hits 1, Bomb hits 5, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
13 x F4F-3 Wildcat bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 100 lb GP Bomb

Magazine explodes on DD Yugumo


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

F4F-3 profile says it carries 2 x 100 lb GP Bomb on normal distance. And the extended range loadout is empty! AFAIK, planes on Low missions that are not Attack bombers should use extended range loadout. Not sure why F4F-3 used bombs in such case, but it got me thinking - should I train them in LowG/LowN also? Fighters strafing smaller, agile ships was historically the most accurate way to do it, and the same is true in the game, but maybe I should also bother with Low bombing skills too?

...


I think that the LowN attacks by Level Bombers only get their loadout reduced to half. So fighters should still be able to LowN with full loadout.

I don't have the manual in font of me to check.



Correct. That penalty only applies to Level Bombers.

Attack Bombers, Fighter bombers and Fighters do NOT suffer that penalty.

B25s come in a variety of models, some are Level and some are Attack bombers.
Important to keep track of the difference in their employment.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 5/15/2018 12:59:15 PM >


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Post #: 23
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