Two questions about a West Coast invasion

[von Beanie]

My Japanese opponent has just invaded Oregon in January, 1942, and will likely take Portland by surprise. He claims that the fall of Portland will eliminate the many CVEs that are scheduled to appear there later in the game. My reading of the e-manual suggests that in the unlikely event he should still control the city in 1943 and later, those CVEs would appear at the East US base. In any case, I'm presuming that the future production of anything is not eliminated by the temporary enemy occupation of the arrival city. Which interpretation, if any, is valid?

Way back in the WITP days, I vaguely recall that a Japanese invasion of western Canada or the US would result in a major acceleration of Allied production (because the Europe-first strategy would be obsolete). I can't find anything to that effect in the WITP-AE manual. Were those penalties changed when the game was revised, or is my memory faulty?

Norm

[Lokasenna]

If he captures the base (not Portland, but Takoma IIRC) - any ships in the queue will be destroyed in situ and he will gain some portion (I forget how much, but I think 1/3) of the normal VPs for sinking them as they are destroyed in their docks. This applies to any bases he would capture.

You should have received an emergency reinforcement package from his invasion, as well.

[GetAssista]

1. All ships qued to arrive in a captured city get destroyed forever, and the opponent will get 1/2 VPs
2. Several division size LCUs appear, plus US gets all its airgroups arrivals accelerated half a year

Meaning you should fight for Portland tooth and nail. Terrain and railroads will help

[Yaab]

Nothing to worry, folks - the Japs will die on the Oregon Trail trying to find the way to the off-map.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Nothing to worry, folks - the Japs will die on the Oregon Trail trying to find the way to the off-map.

Right - drop some propaganda leaflets describing what happened to the Donner Party ... that should spook them pretty good!

[von Beanie]

Can anyone identify exactly where the points made by "GetAssista" can be found in the WITP-AE game e-manual? I've looked using the index, and I can't find them. I've played this game (and UV and WITP) for years and I've never moved around land units on Turn 1 to garrison all U.S. and Canadian port cities. Unfortunately, all there is at Portland is a base force, and so I will undoubtedly lose it temporarily. What I don't understand is why ships that appear in 1945 that haven't even been designed in 1942 will disappear forever. This seems like a serious exploit that Allied players need to know about. My reading of the e-manual reinforcement section suggests they should appear at the east-USA port.

On the other hand, I look forward to having lots of Corsairs in late 1942 and B-29s a half year early.

[jwolf]

On the other hand, I look forward to having lots of Corsairs in late 1942 and B-29s a half year early.

Compared to losing all those CVEs, it's a lousy trade.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: von Beanie

My reading of the e-manual reinforcement section suggests they should appear at the east-USA port.

That is correct for both ground and air units.

For ships, I know they get destroyed ... at least in part. When you take HK as the IJ, there are some MTB's in production that you get points for.
I've never actually tested some place like SD or SF ....

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: von Beanie

Can anyone identify exactly where the points made by "GetAssista" can be found in the WITP-AE game e-manual? I've looked using the index, and I can't find them. I've played this game (and UV and WITP) for years and I've never moved around land units on Turn 1 to garrison all U.S. and Canadian port cities. Unfortunately, all there is at Portland is a base force, and so I will undoubtedly lose it temporarily. What I don't understand is why ships that appear in 1945 that haven't even been designed in 1942 will disappear forever. This seems like a serious exploit that Allied players need to know about. My reading of the e-manual reinforcement section suggests they should appear at the east-USA port.

On the other hand, I look forward to having lots of Corsairs in late 1942 and B-29s a half year early.

Page 263 - "Ships that are destroyed while under construction will score one half of the standard VPs."

I can't find something that references how ships are destroyed while under construction, but it occurs when the base in question is captured by the enemy and the ship is still in the reinforcement queue (i.e., being built). The assumption is that the enemy captured the ships while they were still in progress, and even if you recapture the base the enemy sabotaged the construction facilities such that they are not useful for the duration of the war and the ships are lost.

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: jwolf

On the other hand, I look forward to having lots of Corsairs in late 1942 and B-29s a half year early.

Compared to losing all those CVEs, it's a lousy trade.

The war isn't won with CVEs...it is won with B29s and Mustangs.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: von Beanie

Can anyone identify exactly where the points made by "GetAssista" can be found in the WITP-AE game e-manual? I've looked using the index, and I can't find them. I've played this game (and UV and WITP) for years and I've never moved around land units on Turn 1 to garrison all U.S. and Canadian port cities. Unfortunately, all there is at Portland is a base force, and so I will undoubtedly lose it temporarily. What I don't understand is why ships that appear in 1945 that haven't even been designed in 1942 will disappear forever. This seems like a serious exploit that Allied players need to know about. My reading of the e-manual reinforcement section suggests they should appear at the east-USA port.

On the other hand, I look forward to having lots of Corsairs in late 1942 and B-29s a half year early.

Page 263 - "Ships that are destroyed while under construction will score one half of the standard VPs."

I can't find something that references how ships are destroyed while under construction, but it occurs when the base in question is captured by the enemy and the ship is still in the reinforcement queue (i.e., being built). The assumption is that the enemy captured the ships while they were still in progress, and even if you recapture the base the enemy sabotaged the construction facilities such that they are not useful for the duration of the war and the ships are lost.

Having taken a few large shipyards in Japan, I can say that some ships are shown as "destroyed on the ways" or "destroyed while building" but there can also be a long list of ships that are "Cancelled". I presume the difference is in the time frame between when they were due to appear vs when the port was taken; i.e. up to a certain number of months the ship is considered to have started construction and after that period it was just in the planning stage and got cancelled.

As for the tactic of destroying vital industry with a suicide invasion, two can play that game ...

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

As for the tactic of destroying vital industry with a suicide invasion, two can play that game ...

IRL, both sides prepared exactly that ... they kept significant reserves 'on the beaches back home' ... most players leave home relatively unprotected.

My opponent (Andy AI) knows this and there is a variant that can punish an impetuous IJ player ...

[spence]

If he captures the base (not Portland, but Takoma IIRC)

Kaiser Shipyards in Portland, OR and Vancouver, WA (across the Columbia R from Portland) produced:

Kaiser Shipyard By the Numbers

The World War II-era Vancouver shipyard launched:

50

escort carriers

31

attack transports

30

landing craft

12

C-4 troopships

10

Liberty ships

8

C-4 cargo vessels

2

floating drydocks

The war isn't won with CVEs...it is won with B29s and Mustangs.

Didn't check the APAs etc mentioned above but getting B-29s and P-51s within range of the Home Islands without those CVEs and APAs is likely to be a good deal more difficult if not impossible.
:

[CaptBeefheart]

I can confirm exactly BBFanboy says. You lose Portland for even a day, you lose its production forever. You might want to fly or rail in as much as possible. Watch your aircraft production centers as it applies to them as well.

Cheers,
CC

[von Beanie]

Thank you for all of the information. The landing forces arrived in Astoria and Portland on the first day I discovered there were enemy troops nearby. I can't rail troops in there because I would have to spend a couple of days putting them in strategic mode first. Although I won't lose the cities until next turn, dozens of air unit shells have suddenly appeared along with numerous army divisions in places like Salt Lake City. However, I also learned that I would have to spend political points to use any of them, and many of the new air units, outside of the U.S.

The Kaiser shipyard post is interesting. I briefly looked at the list of ship arrivals in the game scheduled to arrive in Portland, and I would guesstimate I will lose over 200 Ak, over 100 TK, 80 SC, 20 LST, 10 APA in addition to about 60 CVE. Thus I'm inclined to just let the Japanese try to run their new US colony like they are trying to run China.

In the future I will garrison all west coast cities starting on Turn 1. A more practical solution might be for the game designers to create reasonable garrisons for these super-vital national security locations when designing the basic scenarios. In reality, the loss of Astoria and Portland would not have led to the demise of the US Navy and such a surrender, but I'm impressed my opponent was able to surprise me with a decisive move I didn't even know was possible.

[HansBolter]

They start undefended and Japanese players know this. It takes three days to get a division into strat mode and Japanese players know this.

What your excuse for an opponent has done is mercilessly exploit this knowledge in as GAMEY a manner as possible.

This is far worse than hunting the American carriers on day one.

Any player who would exploit this obvious design flaw should be blackballed.

This why I don't do PBEM. Had a similar experience once and swore never again.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
They start undefended and Japanese players know this. It takes three days to get a division into strat mode and Japanese players know this.

What your excuse for an opponent has done is mercilessly exploit this knowledge in as GAMEY a manner as possible.

This is far worse than hunting the American carriers on day one.

Any player who would exploit this obvious design flaw should be blackballed.

This why I don't do PBEM. Had a similar experience once and swore never again.

Original: von Beanie
My Japanese opponent has just invaded Oregon in January, 1942...

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
They start undefended and Japanese players know this. It takes three days to get a division into strat mode and Japanese players know this.

What your excuse for an opponent has done is mercilessly exploit this knowledge in as GAMEY a manner as possible.

This is far worse than hunting the American carriers on day one.

Any player who would exploit this obvious design flaw should be blackballed.

This why I don't do PBEM. Had a similar experience once and swore never again.

Original: von Beanie
My Japanese opponent has just invaded Oregon in January, 1942...

Your opponent is playing a fantasy game, not one based on World war II. Unfortunately the designers facilitated this kind of JFB wet dream and AFB nightmare.

Funny isn't it, how the Japanese player can simply quit before he has to face this kind of "caught you with your pants down" kind of nightmare, while the Allied player has to agree to face it to even get a game started.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Your opponent is playing a fantasy game, not one based on World war II. Unfortunately the designers facilitated this kind of JFB wet dream and AFB nightmare.

Your mentioning Strat mode packing time hints at you misreading the initial post and thinking about Dec 8,41 invasion of Portland. No, it is not the warp invasion. Au contraire, quite legit one. And Allied player should be ready by January, keeping his landlocked armored divisions on the trains.

Apparently real US command was also delusional and playing a fantasy war with their fears of Japanese land invasion throughout 41-42. But what would you expect from those JFBs...

[HansBolter]

Your points are valid. Any Allied player who hasn't gotten divisions into the major ports for defense and who doesn't a reaction force on the rails is leaving himself open and inviting an invasion.

It's exploiting the warp movement bonus to invade an ungarrisoned major base, exploiting the clearly not well thought through rule that all reinforcements at that base get destroyed, that is a firing squad offense