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Historical 1942? - 4/15/2018 9:36:32 PM   
thedoctorking

 

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How many people have played games where 1941 went fairly historically - 4-6 million Soviet casualties but Leningrad, Moscow, and Rostov held - and then had a 1942 that played out anyway historically?

I'm asking because I've been in two games now, one as the Soviets and one as the Germans, where the Barbarossa attack played out more or less historically, with a strong Soviet forward defense and a lot of casualties. Then, the Soviet winter offensive in both cases was powerful but not crushing, with the Germans retreating a dozen hexes or so and a lot of victories for the Soviets. Come June, 1942, there's no crushing German counter-attack possible. Instead, the Soviets are three-deep across the front, Guards corps facing off against panzer divisions on a more or less equal footing, balance or even Soviet predominance in the air, etc. German panzer armies can cut off a few divisions here or there, but never breaking the front. There's no threat to Moscow, or even Stalino or Rostov. To say nothing of Baku or Stalingrad.

I started up the Case Blue scenario, just to look at the balance of forces there, and the Soviets historically were apparently a heck of a lot weaker than they are in the campaign scenario.

It happened with me playing both sides - against an experienced Soviet opponent and, I believe, a pretty competent German opponent in the other game, though I don't see him on the forums much. So I don't think it has to do with me being a lousy player.

Are there some play-balance issues to be addressed?
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RE: Historical 1942? - 4/15/2018 11:11:00 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Rut roh, the historical question has raised it many-faceted "hydra" head again ;-P

In 42 that 3 deep line is "not" as powerful as it seems. To be honest you may want to see a good example of penetrating a good line that a Soviet built in 42 and I will point you to the game played by Stef78 & Bodo. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3967677. Start around post 90ish should give you the beginning of the German 42 offense. 821Bodo was determined to get through in 42 and he did. Once he did it was off to the races is a good example of what you are talking about I believe. Both are really good players so this is a prime example in my opinion.

To me the game is pretty balanced, imo, except for the one point I have been pretty vocal on. It really boils down to the skill level of each of the opponents when they face off and how they react. That is the key ingredient that many forget when the call for balance is brought up. Weigh yourself against your opponent and go from there is what I would advise.

Thank you much!

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 4/15/2018 11:15:50 PM >


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RE: Historical 1942? - 4/16/2018 1:24:58 AM   
thedoctorking

 

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I don't know man, two panzer armies, full movement points, backed up by hundreds of Stukas, couldn't cut off ten divisions from the front row.

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RE: Historical 1942? - 4/16/2018 1:53:10 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

I don't know man, two panzer armies, full movement points, backed up by hundreds of Stukas, couldn't cut off ten divisions from the front row.


Fair enough. I don't have any pictures nor history to comment on what you were facing. Nor your skill nor your opponents skill in the game. So fair enough. Good luck to you.

_____________________________

“If you teach a man anything, he will never learn.”;

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RE: Historical 1942? - 4/16/2018 1:54:00 AM   
thedoctorking

 

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And there are still a whole lot more Soviet troops than there were historically.

1942 campaign game start: 2.65m Germans, 4.96m Soviets
Sparkleytits v. me game (one turn earlier, me as the Germans): 3.76m Germans, 6.16m Soviets
Highlander v. me game (May 7, me as the Soviets): 4.0m Germans, 6.8m Soviets

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RE: Historical 1942? - 4/16/2018 1:58:44 AM   
thedoctorking

 

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Two Panzer Armies, most units with 50 MP, a little low on TOE but still pretty powerful units, and this is what I got. And this was a relatively weak bit of the Soviet defenses, with front-line stacks with reported CV's of 30-40. I figured I could cut off 10-15 divisions and at least make a start at cutting down the Red Army, but no luck. I'll be lucky not to get my own guys cut off. There are no weak spots in the Soviet defenses - which is pretty ridiculous in 1942.





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RE: Historical 1942? - 4/16/2018 3:09:47 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

Two Panzer Armies, most units with 50 MP, a little low on TOE but still pretty powerful units, and this is what I got. And this was a relatively weak bit of the Soviet defenses, with front-line stacks with reported CV's of 30-40. I figured I could cut off 10-15 divisions and at least make a start at cutting down the Red Army, but no luck. I'll be lucky not to get my own guys cut off. There are no weak spots in the Soviet defenses - which is pretty ridiculous in 1942.






Doesn’t look all that bad. When playing ST you have to realize ST is very aggressive ;-). Use it against him or make him think about things. Pockets that aren’t all the way closed end up being pretty good pockets in a later turn. You just can’t get discouraged but it is easier for me to say since I have played this many many times.

_____________________________

“If you teach a man anything, he will never learn.”;

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RE: Historical 1942? - 4/16/2018 5:00:29 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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My figuring of our game is that in my opinion you overused your forces in winter and did not plan accordingly for 42
With a little management you could of been in a much better position

Without wintering units you will lose hundreds of potential morale which translates to an absolute tonne of strength, parity and superiority in 42
You do lose less hexes over winter by defending with all your forces but it means you will take A LOT less hexes come 42 if Soviets can stand up to you because the differencial in strength has not been managed for a long game

Tank use in winter is important for three reasons as I did not notice you held any of them back in winter
1: 85+ morale tanks move 25 enemy hexes and below that they can only move 16 hexes this is a huge threat alone before factoring in the implications on CV
2: Your 30CV tanks could of be between 30-50% stronger in CV if wintered and their morale managed in 41 so most would be 40CV and your real good ones would be still the awesome 50CV they were in 41
3: Set your tanks TOE's to 20% over blizzard or even snows to save on pools as again filling the TOE's up in 42 is almost always going to be better than using them all up in winter and wasting the precious time playing catch up with TOE's in 42

I also would of used the snows build up fort levels on frontlines then to send low morale infantry back and rest instead of attacking as you mentioned your manpower was low so it was important to get as many of your forces propped up by other means as you could instead of relying on solely TOE's
Then with that done come spring your lines would of been higher fort levels and could of been held with less men meaning more men could be safely used in your offensive and you defensive positions would not have had as many holes I could of ripped at

One last thing I would say as a tip is you are still focusing on pockets in 42 and that is at places where I have nice fortlines down it might help if you open some floodgates somewhere first so I fall back and then try and work on fancy manoveurs as we don't need battle for kursk types of attacks yet Soviets are still plenty weak to conjure up other tricks and trying to make pockets in lines of level 2 forts is not going to give you as much of a payoff as if you can force me to fight in a place of your choosing and not mine it will pay you dividends as like HL said use my aggresion against me and don't let me dictate how we fight and I will mess up

The picture you posted actually has some of my best non elite troops in and even if I do manage to buy time a lot of those are dead and gone

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
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RE: Historical 1942? - 4/16/2018 5:08:58 AM   
thedoctorking

 

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Yeah, I should have stepped back three or four hexes on the last turn of snow. I had the illusion that I could somehow be ready to grab Rostov right off the bat in spring and be ready to boogie.

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RE: Historical 1942? - 4/16/2018 5:32:15 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Yeah the snow offensive played more into my hands unfortunately as it gave me unforted points I could hit your minors at pretty hard and also safely while we were still in the 50/50 mud turns with random weather

Those turns have just ended so we have around 95% chance of clear from now on so if you decide to stop me from doing that you can very easily I just don't want to tell you how

you have also made 3 pockets up to now of around a total of 300k men which is nothing to laugh at although 2 pockets are still being reduced so could be made a little lower and time required higher

Your position is not as bad as you think at all as I hate to say it openly but my position is much more precarious and is highly dangerous at the moment with me trying to stand up to you wherever and however I possibly can it's up to you to think of ways to use how I am playing to you advantage but it most definitely can be done in a multitude of ways but again I just don't want to shoot myself in the foot say how

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RE: Historical 1942? - 4/16/2018 1:00:48 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

Yeah the snow offensive played more into my hands unfortunately as it gave me unforted points I could hit your minors at pretty hard and also safely while we were still in the 50/50 mud turns with random weather

Those turns have just ended so we have around 95% chance of clear from now on so if you decide to stop me from doing that you can very easily I just don't want to tell you how

you have also made 3 pockets up to now of around a total of 300k men which is nothing to laugh at although 2 pockets are still being reduced so could be made a little lower and time required higher

Your position is not as bad as you think at all as I hate to say it openly but my position is much more precarious and is highly dangerous at the moment with me trying to stand up to you wherever and however I possibly can it's up to you to think of ways to use how I am playing to you advantage but it most definitely can be done in a multitude of ways but again I just don't want to shoot myself in the foot say how



I agree with ST, you are doing better than you think ;-). If I may be so bold to say, "Get the "historical" mindset out of your head and make "your" history instead". I think that is a hindrance a great many players try to gauge their play by. Another item is try to put yourself in your opponent's chair and think what they are thinking.

Good luck Sir

_____________________________

“If you teach a man anything, he will never learn.”;

Bernard Shaw

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