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Torpedoes LOS - 4/12/2018 5:37:57 AM   
rico21

 

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The original Rico-scenarios have mostly unlimited LOS because we did not know their importance on the speed of the game. The Rico-scenarios II are intended to introduce a LOS which allows to accelerate the speed of the game.
The LOS is also very important for the process of "traps" in a scenario. Two different LOS modifies the difficulty of the game.
Of course everyone can change the LOS of a scenario in the editor but if it is the designer of the scenario that does it, it allows everyone to play the same scenario and to talk about it after, as in a club .
An update scenario at level II may have units, placements, and win conditions changes ... unless it is already considered Rico-Top.
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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/13/2018 5:10:37 PM   
fuselex

 

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thanks Rico for taking the time to revisit some of your scenarios.
Without a doubt the lag became a issue early on playing some of the scenarios.
There has been many steps forward in compensating for this issue since the release of ToTH.
From peter working on his side of the fence to the scenario designers limiting visibility to improve the speed.
After 2 odd years I think the game has hit a nice point.
yes , 4 maps in the same scenario is great but is it actually playable ?
So to see someone go back and play with the setup of a scenario is great.
I have thoroughly enjoyed every scenario I have ever played .
But maybe some would benefit with a fine tune due to the advancement of ToTH




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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/13/2018 5:37:16 PM   
UP844


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Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/14/2018 3:58:54 AM   
LN59


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Hi, Rico!

About both versions of your "Guderian break through Sedan", I first asked myself the same question as Slaphappypappy.
Answer in Status/Scenario Attributes ---> LOS Unlimited in the first version, LOS set to 12 hexes in the second.
A HUGE difference as to the lag problem.

I didn't take the time to edit both versions to compare them in detail.
In particular to know the French set up hexes & any programmed orders given to the French units when managed by the AI (if AI Attitude is set to HOLD).
See Editor, OOB/Modify Unit, UNIT Attributes/AI Special Command(*) ---> ATTACK, DEFEND, HEX (X,Y).

I played version # 1 (Unlimited LOS) with Difficulty set to Very Hard.

Result:

German Minor Victory.
Bravo Rico, an excellent challenge because the slightest mistake costs the chance of a major victory!

[Please, see picture below: Units B & C]

Some pleasant surprises. On four of the five fortified hexes, two were 'conquered' with Broken+DM units during their Rout Phase!
I didn't imagine it was possible! Note: They were adjacent, or distant from 1 hex, to the empty fortification where they finally would be safe.

[Picture below: Unit A]

But a great frustration, too. That of not seeing an automatic centering of the screen on the targeted hexes when OBA lands.

Master Peter, help us out of pity! We want to know live what happens to all our poor little digital pawns!

A day almost full to let the CPU(**) lag as a great one. Just to see what could happen.
Not to mention a lot of backups, meanwhile.
No no, I ain't sadomasochistic!
Just stubborn.

Yesterday, Friday, I've started a game with version # 2 (LOS: 12 hexes).

First observation: the first three rounds of play in less than 30 minutes.
No dead time. I'm just very, very cautious in deployments, shots and moves.
Perfect fluidity of the game as a user!
I know I will finish the game in about an hour this weekend.
Very nice!
Total: one hour and a half for a really exciting scenario, even if I don't necessarily manage to do better than the first time.

I'm already thinking of a third game where the LOS would be set at 20 hexes.

Why?

- Respect for historicity.

The spring of 1940 was marked by good weather, after a harsh winter.

The visibility should be excellent (20 hexes = 1 kilometre at the game scale) without being absolute (i.e. Unlimited).
Enough for the MMG and HMG (range up to 16 hexes, unless I'm mistaken) to 'express their capabilities' at normal range, and even a little beyond.
Same thing for the OBA and the on-map artillery.

Question to Peter: beyond this limit of 20 hexes plus or minus 50% depending on the season, the time of day, etc.
why not offer a kind of Close Air Support even more random(ly) than the OBA in its first way?


- Respect for the playability.

Need to conciliate two constraints: realism (see above) and capacity of calculation.
Don't want to wait (or even know) quantum computers for the gamers!
I want to see the effect of LOS from 12 to 20 hexes, by simply testing a precise tuning.

Surely a little maniac!

- Comfort for the players.

To adopt a standard description of scenario (as You, Big Ivan and others already do) without this being too rigid but with the systematic and
complete mention of the At Start/Scenario Configuration & the Scenario Attributes as well as their recommanded margin of variation (when using the Editor).

Something like "Best played on ... SIDE / with LOS: ... hexes / with RULE: ... / with MOD: ... / etc."
(John Tiller's Campaign Series fondly remembered)

Thank You for your great creativity,
And Congratulations again to Peter for his Big Game.

LN59

+--------------------------------------+

(*) I think there is something very powerful behind that feature but still have the impression, without being able to verify it, that it isn't
exploited enough by the creators of scenarios.
I tried to use it in my "CB002 - Thunder over Boislonde BR" (German AI = HOLD) and was rather satisfied during the tests.
I dream of an AI that can also handle scheduled orders like: ON TURN # ; ATTACK HEX (X,Y)!

But these questions also are for Peter...

(**) ToTH Version is: 1.0.82
My system is: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium
Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4460 CPU @ 3.20GHz, 3201 MHz, Core ×4, RAM 8,0 Go




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< Message edited by LN59 -- 4/15/2018 8:43:13 PM >


_____________________________

"On ne passe pas !"
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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/14/2018 10:12:49 AM   
rico21

 

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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/14/2018 11:57:44 AM   
Peter Fisla


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LN59

Master Peter, help us out of pity! We want to know live what happens to all our poor little digital pawns!



What seems to be the issue, good sir?


quote:

ORIGINAL: LN59

Question to Peter: beyond this limit of 20 hexes plus or minus 50% depending on the season, the time of day, etc.
why not offer a kind of Close Air Support even more random(ly) than the OBA in its first way?



Air support is not in the game, it would have to be done...I will leave this feature for TotH v2.0 3D for the future.

(in reply to LN59)
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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/14/2018 3:24:21 PM   
LN59


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Bien vu ! - Well done, Rico!

_____________________________

"On ne passe pas !"
The French soldiers' motto (Verdun, 1916)

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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/14/2018 4:47:38 PM   
rico21

 

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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/14/2018 4:58:29 PM   
LN59


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Dear Peter,

First and foremost, thank You for Your prompt reply!

- Close Air Support: The CAS isn't a particularly urgent expectation for me. I just wanted to suggest that maybe You could add it (obviously in a very distant future) as a simple type of OBA, rarer, more random and dangerous in its effects (friendly fire) than others. A form of abstraction without necessarily taking into account the 3D, the reaction of the Flak, the strafing and / or the use of bombs or rockets and other hyper detailed features not really necessary in ToTH ...


- Seeing 'live' the effects of the landing OBA: Maybe not an issue related to the game but to my system. I'm sorry if I probably didn't speak well about it! Each time the OBA strikes, unlike all other support weapons, my screen doesn't autofocuses on the current OBA action (on each of the 7 hexes targeted) and I can't change the map's visible window by using the mouse or keyboard arrows. I have to wait until the end of the current Fire Segment to observe the effects. Are game's calculations outweighting the User Interface's memory access? I really don't now. Hence my 'frustration' ...


- Finally, let me reiterate my questions about that Editor's feature (apparently) allowing to 'program' the individual attitude of each unit deployed to the benefit of the AI-managed side when it's set to HOLD Attitude. See Editor Menu: UNIT Attributes/AI Special Command ---> ATTACK, DEFEND, HEX (X,Y). [Please, see also the first (*) of my first post on this thread]


Looking forward to reading You, rest assured, Peter, of my deep respect for Your devotion to Your beautiful game and the community around it.

Lilian, aka LN59

< Message edited by LN59 -- 4/14/2018 8:31:43 PM >


_____________________________

"On ne passe pas !"
The French soldiers' motto (Verdun, 1916)

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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/14/2018 5:10:02 PM   
LN59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21







On ne peut plus d'actualité, Rico ! Malheureusement. Mais il faut faire ce qu'il y a à faire...

Can not be more timely, Rico! Sadly. But we have to do what we have to do ...

Lilian



_____________________________

"On ne passe pas !"
The French soldiers' motto (Verdun, 1916)

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Post #: 10
RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/14/2018 6:00:28 PM   
Peter Fisla


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Hi LN59,

- CAS would be nice yes; I will keep that in mind for the future.

- OBA, I think if only one OBA fires then you should see the target location and the impact fire on each hex. I think the issue is if TWO OBAs fire then I think the screen does not update...I will look into this in the future.

- regarding the special commands, if you have any questions then let me know. Generally, if let's say for a scenario AI is on defensive (AI = hold) and if you still want, you can give some individual AI units special attack orders (example, some AI units coming on board will counter attack). With the ALPHA version that I'm currently working on, I have added special attack command (when AI is on attack, AI = advance) that gives an AI unit special attack order to attack only a specific hex. The purpose is to give a scenario designer more options to make AI behave more unique in a scenario.

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 4/14/2018 6:05:02 PM >

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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/14/2018 8:12:43 PM   
LN59


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Hi Peter,

Thank You again for Your very fast answer.
The enlightments You gave are completely satisfying me!

- CAS: Nothing to add.

- OBA: I'm going to experiment that issue with some small generic scenarios (as Rico does) and I'll give you my comments, and the files that go with.

- AI Special Commands: Very exciting! A "rather simple" way (possibly with a temporal trigger like reinforcements, or combined with them?) to simulate counter-attacks, feints, human waves and so on? And it's already the Alpha version ... I'm dreaming! I will try to follow this future possibility closely!

Konkradulations, Herrn Meister Peter!

LN59

< Message edited by LN59 -- 4/14/2018 10:34:07 PM >


_____________________________

"On ne passe pas !"
The French soldiers' motto (Verdun, 1916)

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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/15/2018 12:02:20 AM   
Peter Fisla


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LN59

Hi Peter,

- OBA: I'm going to experiment that issue with some small generic scenarios (as Rico does) and I'll give you my comments, and the files that go with.



Sure, thanks

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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/15/2018 4:17:49 PM   
fuselex

 

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On ne passé pas
Really doesn't mean a great deal to someone sitting on the beach over here in Australia.
I cant speak foreign lingo`s .
Do I know what anyone is singing ?
of course not.
But due to this game/ forum I have made the effort to look up something other than waltzing matilda.
Do I have the same passion for the song as others do? well no , how can I?
But do I understand their passion for their country .That I can understand.
One/they will/shall not pass.
WW1 the finest hour of French forces ,




< Message edited by fuselex -- 4/15/2018 4:27:02 PM >

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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/15/2018 6:44:17 PM   
rico21

 

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I do not remember the name of that famous allied general who said; "The worst is not to fight the French but to fight with them!"

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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/15/2018 7:17:54 PM   
LN59


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Hi, Fuselex!
Hi, Rico!

To love one's country doesn't mean to be closed to others country or people; neither their art of living and their culture.
On the contrary! I am not chauvinistic or partisan of this old jingoism so dear to Rudyard Kipling and his contemporaries.

Unlike many large Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't have, here in France, any straights or oceans to put between us and sometimes "malicious" neighbours.
Except the Mediterranean, and it's still not so sure!
Which situation naturally gives us a point of view a little bit different from that of the American, the English, the Canadian, the New Zealander or the Australian.

Different but not irreconcilable, because we know well, here in Northern France, what we owe to Canadians, ANZACs, Tommies, Sammies or GIs since 1918 & 1944.
A very big part of our freedom.

Valenciennes, my hometown, was liberated by the Canadians (46th Battalion "South Saskatchewan", CEF - on November 2, 1918)
and by the Americans (30th US ID "Old Hickory" - on September 2, 1944).

Le Quesnoy, historical city and playground of my youth ("Thank You, Mr Vauban!") was assaulted by the New Zealanders ten days before the Armistice.
The twinning is still active nowadays with the NZ city of Cambridge (North Island).

Many families are welcomed each year in our region - like in our beautiful country - to visit the "Green (Killing) Fields (Beyond)"
and the "Marble Gardens" where rest those members of their family that they sometimes never knew in another way than by the narrative and archives.

Songs? As for "Waltzing Matilda", I still listen to the poignant tribute that the punk rock & scottish band "The Skids" made to her,
as well as to the Ancients of Gallipoli in the early 1980s.

All places and music that my 22-years-old son, yet a five years volunteer in our Army, has loved and shared with me for a long, long time.

As for the motto "On ne passe pas !" (translation: "They [the Huns] will/shall never break through us!", we must remind our Anglo-Saxon friends
that it was the One of Many of our "Poilus" (translation: "Hairy Grunts") during the Battle of Verdun, as terrible as that of the Somme,
but had begun in February 1916 (in lieu of July 1st) and continued until December (10 months).

All my friendships go to those who come "From the Uttermost Part of the World" to visit "Fromelles Memorial", near Lille or
the "Garden of the New Zealanders" at Le Quesnoy (= the City of the Oak), both situated in the département du Nord (France).

With my Best Regards,
Sincerely Yours.
Lilian (LN59)

The Skids (Joy, LP, 1981): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA4SeN8xqXQ





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< Message edited by LN59 -- 4/16/2018 2:04:41 PM >


_____________________________

"On ne passe pas !"
The French soldiers' motto (Verdun, 1916)

(in reply to fuselex)
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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/16/2018 11:20:20 AM   
LN59


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To Rico:

H. Norman Schwarzkopf aka "'Stormin' Norman" (1934-2012).
Commander-in-Chief of Operation "Desert Shield" from August 8th, 1990 to January 16th, 1991 then C.-in-C. of Operation "Desert Storm" from January 17th, 1991 to February 28th.

French bashing, as usual?

Yet, the French Armored Brigade "Daguet" was protecting the Coalition's left wing when it entered Irak. So, it was participating - in its westernmost and essential flanking position - to the whole great turning movement that allowed the liberation of Kuwait.

LN59




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< Message edited by LN59 -- 4/16/2018 2:07:39 PM >


_____________________________

"On ne passe pas !"
The French soldiers' motto (Verdun, 1916)

(in reply to rico21)
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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/16/2018 1:00:28 PM   
rico21

 

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The Chadian president's son, General Mahamat Idriss Deby, answered the question asking if he would participate in the misma (UN) in Mali: "We go to the fire only with the French!"




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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/16/2018 1:56:58 PM   
LN59


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Nothing to add to that, Rico!

LN59

< Message edited by LN59 -- 4/16/2018 2:14:48 PM >


_____________________________

"On ne passe pas !"
The French soldiers' motto (Verdun, 1916)

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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/16/2018 2:12:24 PM   
rico21

 

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Before




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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/16/2018 2:12:58 PM   
rico21

 

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Now




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< Message edited by rico21 -- 4/16/2018 2:13:40 PM >

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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/16/2018 2:16:34 PM   
LN59


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Excellentes références - Excellent references!

_____________________________

"On ne passe pas !"
The French soldiers' motto (Verdun, 1916)

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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/16/2018 4:06:41 PM   
LN59


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Don Rico,

- Désolé pour cette manifestation lamentable de "culte de la personnalité" !

- I apologize for this lamentable manifestation of "cult of the personality"!

Jadis... (Formerly ...)




Lilian

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< Message edited by LN59 -- 4/16/2018 4:10:10 PM >


_____________________________

"On ne passe pas !"
The French soldiers' motto (Verdun, 1916)

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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/16/2018 5:01:28 PM   
blackcloud6


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How will we know a scenario is Rico-II compliant? Will they be annotated in the name of the scenario somehow>

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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/16/2018 6:07:07 PM   
rico21

 

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RE: Torpedoes LOS - 4/16/2018 6:07:38 PM   
rico21

 

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The Rico-scenario Festung Brest is the start of the fixed LOS to improve the speed of the game. All Rico-scenarios made after are concepted to work on small PC configuration.
All Rico-scenarios before Festung Brest have a risk of lag. I will do a second version(II) if I replay one of this scenario or if you REALLY want to play it too.





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