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Burn Out - 4/4/2018 10:28:11 AM   
rico21

 

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Do you think today that a game creator can avoid to follow and support his game?
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RE: Burn Out - 4/4/2018 10:31:41 AM   
zakblood


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no

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RE: Burn Out - 4/4/2018 11:31:01 AM   
Yogi the Great


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No - it is a big mistake as todays buyers feel the need for proper support and updating when needed. While you might be able to sell a title or two if the impression is that there is no good support many will avoid buying that companies games in the future.

Too bad too as there are some excellent and innovative games out there that have suffered and lost sales for the company because of this problem.

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RE: Burn Out - 4/4/2018 12:30:36 PM   
ringoblood


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no

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RE: Burn Out - 4/4/2018 1:16:00 PM   
JReb


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This is a major hurdle for Matrix as a lot of their developers are doing this in addition to their real jobs, raising kids, etc. . Its a shame that the wargame business can not generate enough sales / revenue to support a professional, full-time development company where wargame creation / development is more than just a side business / hobby / pet project.

There is a huge need for more dedicated developers for the grognard crowd but they are hard in short supply and I'm afraid the 'Grigsby, Hunter and Koger' days are forever behind us.

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RE: Burn Out - 4/4/2018 2:04:16 PM   
MrsWargamer

 

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Burn out can happen with anything.

I write romance novels. I haven't experienced it, but I'm sure it's not impossible to lose the fire.

I also have a love of painting landscapes. I suppose if I did one each day, eventually the thrill might fade.

I like models, and I have made them professionally. And yes, just because you get paid for something, doesn't mean you will enjoy it more.

Nurses can suffer burn out.

Woodworkers can suffer burn out.

You can knit too much and quilt too much.

Making software might be something you can endlessly update and fiddle with, but it's a form of creation, and eventually, it's time to sign your name and let people realize, "I made that 5 years ago, I didn't expect to be making adjustments to if 10 years later.

I want to see Steel Panthers eventually see a successor, but, I don't require it to be seeing endless fiddling. I'm impressed some still do. But, come on, the game is now more than 20 years old.

Most wargames are finished the year after they are created. Anything that happens to it after a year, isn't called a fix or a patch or an update, it's called an obsession. If it won't run on a new machine or a new OS, that's the fault of the machine or the OS manufacturer. Hold THEM accountable. Make THEM fix THEIR product.

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RE: Burn Out - 4/4/2018 3:04:27 PM   
Mobeer


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A producer cannot abandon their game without losing sales.

Too many games are far from finished when released and need repeated patching. If the producer abandons the game upon release then this gets reported in forums, user reviews etc and it will discourage purchases.

Maybe about 15 years ago it was different; a game would only be released when finished and then not patched. Actually though the newer approach (release early and complete post-release) actually helps the producer, because it gets revenue coming in earlier. It also supports the approach of selling fixes and extra content as (chargeable) DLC or expansion packs. Personally I'd be less like to "burn-out" when making new DLC to sell rather than patching a product for free.

In future I expect more games will be sold as a service with an ongoing monthly fee rather than a purchase price. Producers will have to get used to long term development for their games.

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RE: Burn Out - 4/4/2018 3:07:11 PM   
Red2112


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Steam for example is full of abandon games. I recently made a video of a game that came out last October, by January this year the devs have vanished!

The bad part is they still sell them, which is something that I donīt support and/or accept anymore. Money is hard to come by these dayīs and itīs a shame that games on realease are buged, but still bugged a year after realease and Iam talking about AAA games! You spend $60 on a new game, spend 4-6hrs playing and all of a sudden your stuck because thereīs a bug that dosenīt let you advance in the game, how cool is that!

Then you have kickstarts, alphas, betas, crowdfunding and all that BS to support the devīs! Six years later there still working on the game and still asking $60 for it! I have been stupid enough to fall for this quite alot of times, but thanks to these devs and there obssesion to make more money and make "there" game without careing when and what to deliver to those who spent there hard earned money, other devs which might come up and deliver a good product are bypassed because some buyers are burnt!

A good product will always be a good product, a OS can to a point be a handicap but not the fault of a app not working correctly. There are plenty of games form the past that back this up! Just like in music, thereīs good song writing and bad song writing, the same goes for recording. Still today you will find recording studios trying to mimic the sound of the 60īs-70īs, as well a sound apps. With less they did more...

Although crowdfunding and kickstarts have been of help to open the market to alot of devīs that without this would have never been able to get there product out, it has also hurt the market aswell. In a business association (which is the mechanisim mirror of a kickstart), the association has regular meetings to expose there achivements and goals for a certain time period. Associates will drop from the association if these goals are not meet. Unfortunately itīs not that way with crowdfunding or kickstarts, once a user dose his pledge or backs the kickstart, that money is thereīs, they then decide were the money goes and when the product will be released, in such case if that ever happens! Itīs quite a risky thing now dayīs, but then NOBODY is forced to pledge.

Alpha and Betas, while itīs ok and most of us without knowing it are beta-testers since release day (we report back what dosent work, and in theory they fix it), some official alpha/betas (early access) should not have the price tag they have! $60 for a beta is a rip-off, $60 for a old title is a rip-off! When you go buy a new car the seller dosenīt say "well the gasoline needle dosent work to good because we didnīt have enough time to come up with a better thing. So just be careful and judge for your self how much gas you have left in your tank".

The thing is that we are so used to this schem that nobody even thinks about these thingīs. We are encourage everyday to consume more and more without any thought.

In the end itīs a dobble sided knife because not only do the devs become burnt, but also the users! In a way workmanship has been lost with things that expire just to quick, be it because there are better things, because of lack of support, or because they have a hidden time limit (hardware updates/trends etc.).

As always, itīs my personal opinion...

Red

--

< Message edited by Red2112 -- 4/4/2018 3:23:05 PM >


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RE: Burn Out - 4/4/2018 3:58:43 PM   
HunterICX


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Short answer, No.

If you do you can kiss yourself as a credible game developer goodbye.

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RE: Burn Out - 4/4/2018 5:25:34 PM   
MrsWargamer

 

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Weeeeeeell I suppose it depends on the person producing the item.

Make a ****ty game as your first product, and kiss your career goodbye.

Make a good product, that is complete and likely you won't need to play the fix it after sell it game.

Myself, I won't buy the second game after a first one is sold 'as is' where the 'as is' is the same as 'pay me to finish it'.

I guess too much of software has gotten too used to the idea of needing to provide too much. So perhaps it is the consumer expecting the world too often.

To go and use my Steel Panthers example again, the first release, was actually ok. Still is ok. But it was designed in the 90s several OSs ago and for machines of the time. The ONLY reason it is problematic, is modern OSs and modern machines sometimes just can't run the simple software. To be honest, that seems like a major failing of the OSs and the machines.

There's no intelligent reason Windows can't run older software. There's no reason more powerful machines can't easily run early simpler software.
That's like me buying a fully kitted out woodworking shop and it being able to power up my best battery powered hand tools, but be incapable of letting me use a hand tool.

The main reason I don't jump on the latest version of Windows, is I don't really HAVE to use it.
The main reason I don't have the latest greatest hardware, is I don't always require it.

And the main reason I don't always grab the latest greatest software experience is it's not always worth it.
I don't have Civilization 6, and likely I'm not getting it. V was ok, IV was ok, III was ok.
A lot of times a game is only worth getting when it is long since left the market.

If you rush out to get a rushed game, you might be part of the problem to a point.
If you stop allowing rushed games to sell, they will stop trying to sell them before they are ready.

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RE: Burn Out - 4/4/2018 5:53:08 PM   
HunterICX


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Weeeeeeell I suppose it depends on the person producing the item.


Well you don't see look up from my book for stuff comming out of those big studio names like EA, Ubisoft and Activision.

quote:

Make a ****ty game as your first product, and kiss your career goodbye.


Well that's a given, I hope but I've seen some examples where I wonder if people actually bother to do a bit of research into it before they buy

quote:

Make a good product, that is complete and likely you won't need to play the fix it after sell it game.


Well and true for games back then when PC games and PC hardware&software wheren't as complex as today that games tend to be less prone to have problems then today. Perhaps also a factor was that due the lack of the internet acces compared to today more time was spend to make sure all mayor problems where ironed out and so they could guarantee if your system complied with the system requirements you would be able to enjoy the game without problems. Speaking ofcourse from personal experience here.

quote:

Myself, I won't buy the second game after a first one is sold 'as is' where the 'as is' is the same as 'pay me to finish it'.


Yeah, I stay way clear of early-acces projects myself.

quote:

If you rush out to get a rushed game, you might be part of the problem to a point.
If you stop allowing rushed games to sell, they will stop trying to sell them before they are ready.


To quote Ash :




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RE: Burn Out - 4/4/2018 6:23:29 PM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JReb
This is a major hurdle for Matrix as a lot of their developers are doing this in addition to their real jobs, raising kids, etc. . Its a shame that the wargame business can not generate enough sales / revenue to support a professional, full-time development company where wargame creation / development is more than just a side business / hobby / pet project.


It's not like any of our grognard wargames get millions of customers like World of Warcraft that could support a full-time development company.

As games get abandoned per se when developers get burned out and move on, there's still some hope for others to take on the code development for continued improvements. I've done this with Empires in Arms. Also Ralph Trickey with The Operational Art of War, Jason Petho with the Tiller Campaign Series, and a few others. It's tough to take on someone else's code, but easier than trying to rebuild from scratch. It's a tough business for hobby projects.


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RE: Burn Out - 4/4/2018 6:25:24 PM   
rico21

 

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Congratulations to all for your exciting answers.
I will simply add that OS changes represent the planned obsolescence of our favorite games.
And if we do not help financially one way or another the creators of games, they will stop innovating and produce as in the cinema blockbuster soap operas or turnips tasteless.
But we are already in this scenario, are not we?

(in reply to rico21)
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RE: Burn Out - 4/4/2018 7:46:51 PM   
Red2112


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Rico, we are just waiting for quantum computers to become available for personal use

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RE: Burn Out - 4/4/2018 9:08:55 PM   
balto

 

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No worries, we have Vic (new screens on Shadow Empire) and we have Paradox. Those two are enough for generations of great times. And then there is Panzer Corp 2 (not sure who is the boss of that) and you have Distant Worlds 2 (matrix).., so yeah, we are good to go.

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RE: Burn Out - 4/4/2018 11:10:39 PM   
Pvt_Grunt

 

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Better to Burn out than to fade away ..... My My Hey Hey

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RE: Burn Out - 4/4/2018 11:30:29 PM   
E

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pvt_Grunt
Better to Burn out than to fade away ..... My My Hey Hey

Have you considered naming that horse, YET?


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RE: Burn Out - 4/5/2018 2:04:28 AM   
Rosseau

 

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All I can say is I've humbly done my part in terms of support. If my wife only knew!!

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RE: Burn Out - 4/5/2018 5:59:27 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JReb

This is a major hurdle for Matrix as a lot of their developers are doing this in addition to their real jobs, raising kids, etc. . Its a shame that the wargame business can not generate enough sales / revenue to support a professional, full-time development company where wargame creation / development is more than just a side business / hobby / pet project.

War game genre isn't alone in this boat. At least RPG and platformer genres are there along for the ride. I have read Steam gets some 10 new games in a day. There are few bright gems, like Sonic Mania and Shovel Knight. And of course some multi-million $$ games made by full time professionals. But can you guess what are the great majority? I have bought & played an RPG where language is worse than Engrish and game balance isn't much better: "overpowered" is understatement for player character.

Matrix Games, Slitherine & developers under them are doing good job and fantastic games. Get it?

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RE: Burn Out - 4/5/2018 6:40:35 PM   
JReb


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Get what?

All I said was its a shame our genre doesn't generate enough revenue to warrant a full time development team. That's all. I did not insult Matrix or Slith in any way.

Take a chill pill and quit going out of your way to be offended!

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Post #: 20
RE: Burn Out - 4/5/2018 7:52:57 PM   
rico21

 

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Wait gentlemen, E did not manage to close the thread, follow his example...

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