Mission 2: Cross-Border Skirmish

Shifting Sands traces the history of many Arab-Israeli conflicts: from the sidelines of the Suez crisis, through the lightning Six-Day War, the guerilla-like War Of Attrition and the strategic surprise of the Yom Kippur War, all the way to the historic Osirak raid and the epic air battle over the Bekaa Valley
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$trummer
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Mission 2: Cross-Border Skirmish

Post by $trummer »

This is a terrific mission that I have been playing through several times in order to re-acquaint myself with the game's mechanics after a long time away. It's great scenario design to provide a strong, comprehensive briefing yet leave the player to figure out a few tactical/operational details that can give him an edge.

One small thing that amuses me more than it irks me is this: Syrian attack a/c will often get as far into Israel as Ramat David air base, with impunity. I realise that choices have to be made not to over-complicate mission design, even at the expense of realism, but I don't think any enemy aircraft, under any circumstances and in any time period, could have got within SHORAD range of Ramat David without being blasted out of the sky. Just a very small point.
Tiramisu
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RE: Mission 2: Cross-Border Skirmish

Post by Tiramisu »

ORIGINAL: $trummer

I realise that choices have to be made not to over-complicate mission design, even at the expense of realism, but I don't think any enemy aircraft, under any circumstances and in any time period, could have got within SHORAD range of Ramat David without being blasted out of the sky. Just a very small point.

Maybe they would not have come so far, if you were commanding them better. [:'(] It is surely possible to intercept them before they come too close to your border because of your early radar warning.

In this mission I have realised that the ground units are extremly important to throw back the Syrian ground advance near your border, before their artillery hits you. You can even get three additional tanks by detaching them from the northern military base. Even the heroic tractor group might be a valuable recon unit. :D So I am not sure what the air-to-ground aircraft are good for (their hit chance is very low anyway). I have tried to use them to bombard a Syrian airport, but that does neither help you nor does it give you any additional score.
Only the air-to-air fighters are extremly valuable to throw back the attack wave of Syrian fighters at the end of the mission. It was really tough for me not to lose too many aircraft during that phase.
gmsitton
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RE: Mission 2: Cross-Border Skirmish

Post by gmsitton »

ORIGINAL: $trummer

This is a terrific mission that I have been playing through several times in order to re-acquaint myself with the game's mechanics after a long time away. It's great scenario design to provide a strong, comprehensive briefing yet leave the player to figure out a few tactical/operational details that can give him an edge.

One small thing that amuses me more than it irks me is this: Syrian attack a/c will often get as far into Israel as Ramat David air base, with impunity. I realise that choices have to be made not to over-complicate mission design, even at the expense of realism, but I don't think any enemy aircraft, under any circumstances and in any time period, could have got within SHORAD range of Ramat David without being blasted out of the sky. Just a very small point.

I know it's been 18 months since you posted this, but here is my solution.

Set up an AAW Patrol (CAP) over the border, with a limited patrol box and a larger prosecution box (covering the pre-planned exclusion zone), and set your patrol to investigate contacts outside of the patrol area, but deselect same in the prosecution box. Or, simply use the exclusion zone for your prosecution box.

Create several two fighter Air Intercept strikes and set the 'Mission triggers when contact is minimum:' box to Hostile. This is because the pre-planned exclusion zone is set to flag any unknown air contacts entering the zone to Hostile. Set one Air Intercept to Active and the remainder to Inactive.

This method will give you a CAP over the border and an alert flight to respond to any hostiles. If you need additional fighters to enter the fray, change the remaining strikes you set up from inactive to active. They'll launch to interdict any Hostiles who enter the exclusion zone.
actrade
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RE: Mission 2: Cross-Border Skirmish

Post by actrade »

I have zero issue with the ground ops part of this scenario as using my ground forces and artillery easily neutralizes AAA and then I simply have my bombers kill the arty, but I keep getting overwhelmed by the wave of Syrian aircraft that come in later. ATM, I'm just using my Mirages for CAP. I can see no other way to counter all of the Syrian AC without perhaps trying to rearm strike aircraft or send them bomb-laden on suicide missions. One thing I haven't tried is setting the mission parameters to drop munitions when engaged, but still wondering if these strike aircraft can hold their own against fighters? I also noticed that most of my SARH miss as well so I'm thinking maybe I need to change mission parameters to a more discerning launch profile?
actrade
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RE: Mission 2: Cross-Border Skirmish

Post by actrade »

Doh, just figured out how to use the "ready selected aircraft" button. Didn't know I could change loadouts before the start, so got rid of Mirages carrying bombs and just guns and presto!
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pbrowne
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RE: Mission 2: Cross-Border Skirmish

Post by pbrowne »

On my fourth attempt at this second scenario in the Shifting Sands DLC.

Help needed! [&:]

I have no problem with my Meteors, at 3000ft, spotting the Syrian AAA and artillery on the Golan Heights border.

I also have little trouble taking out those ground units with the available Israeli ground units and artillery.

However, dealing with the Syrian Air Force is a problem. I have a standing AAW Patrol mission in a defined area over the exclusion zone with my Mirage aircraft (those not fitted with bombs), OK so far.

I also have sent all Mystère and Ouragan aircraft in groups of two to bomb the three Syrian airbases in succession which they APPEAR to be doing a good of destroying (although no way I can see of ascertaining damage...).

The Syrian aircraft keep coming and destroying too many of my aircraft, especially the Mystère and Ouragan, as they RTB.

Can anyone explain in detail what this scenario takes to win including points?

Also, how do I see in the scenario where the victory conditions are? Is there a way to open/edit a file to see this?
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Schr75
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RE: Mission 2: Cross-Border Skirmish

Post by Schr75 »

Hi pbrowne

SPOILER ALERT!!!

Let me answer your questions in reverse.
If you open the scen in editor mode and under the editor tab select "edit scoring" (see attached pic), then you can see the victory conditions.

Regarding bombing the Syrian airbases.
It´s been a while since I played this scen so this is from memory.
Looking at your assets from start, you don´t have enough to effectively shutdown the airbases.
Besides they are also to far away leaving your attackers dangerously low on fuel after their attacks far from home, making them easy targets.

Instead, concentrate on destroying the Syrian artillery. This is where you score a lot of points.
Then concentrate on destroying the AAA around the settlement you are supposed to protect.
When they are gone, concentrate your fighters around the settlement and prepare to defend it from the Syrian airstrikes. This way you will be fighting close to home base with plenty of fuel, and they will be short on fuel.

Also remember to never fight fair. If possible, attack en masse, forcing the Syrians defensive and making them burn a lot of fuel. This will also make then dive for the deck which is why it´s important to get rid of the AAA first.

A final pointer. Some of the Syrians carry AA-1 Alkali missiles. They are useless below 5000 feet/1500 meters, so if you attack them low, your missiles will work while theirs won´t.

I hope this helped, and let me know how it goes.

Søren

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pbrowne
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RE: Mission 2: Cross-Border Skirmish

Post by pbrowne »

Thanks Søren, very helpful indeed!

Regarding Edit Scoring. That is helpful, but it doesn't tell me the conditions/events that determine the points. IMO it would useful to see which tactical areas to focus in achieving a victory.

Though that said, all scenarios would be different and scenario developers would have different perspectives on what SHOULD be regarded as sound tactical decisions, and which should therefore earn more points. Bad tactical decisions resulting in loss of points.

I have also received other advice on the Steam forum to have a small patrol area and a larger prosecution area for the AAW patrols which I will also try out.
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pbrowne
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RE: Mission 2: Cross-Border Skirmish

Post by pbrowne »

The Game -> Scoring -> Scoring Log shows the events awarding or deducting points, which is something I have also been negligent in looking at...

Such a deep and fascinating simulator. I only wish it had a better alternative to TacView for those who want to see results of strikes etc, though I understand it would not be representative of real world command post operations, being a former Australian field artillery officer who never saw the rounds hit when in the CP, but relied on FO and others reports.
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pbrowne
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RE: Mission 2: Cross-Border Skirmish

Post by pbrowne »

In addition to using my arty and recon, I sent my Jeeps with RR to engage the AA and Arty. I noticed after engaging, the jeeps are stationary at the AA and have no available weapon. Is there a way to resupply ground units?
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Schr75
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RE: Mission 2: Cross-Border Skirmish

Post by Schr75 »

ORIGINAL: pbrowne
Regarding Edit Scoring. That is helpful, but it doesn't tell me the conditions/events that determine the points.
Glad to be of assistance.
If you want to know exactly what events trigger what points, look in the event editor menu point in the same editor tab (six down from edit scoring).

There you can see what triggers are build in to the scen and what actions they cause.
For instance a destroyed arty batt. gives the player 20 points, an enemy plane shot down 5 points and you lose 10 points for every plane you use.

Søren
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pbrowne
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RE: Mission 2: Cross-Border Skirmish

Post by pbrowne »

Great thanks again.

Is there way to resupply ground forces? I have read somewhere that if an ammo truck is available that you can automate or set manual resupply. I might ask this outside of this scenario thread...
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Schr75
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RE: Mission 2: Cross-Border Skirmish

Post by Schr75 »

ORIGINAL: pbrowne

Is there way to resupply ground forces? I have read somewhere that if an ammo truck is available that you can automate or set manual resupply. I might ask this outside of this scenario thread...

I´m not sure, I have never tried this.
I think that you have to add a magazine to the unit that you want to resupply but I could very well be wrong.

There are people with a lot more knowledge about this than me on this forum. I´m sure they can give you a better answer.

Søren
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pbrowne
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RE: Mission 2: Cross-Border Skirmish

Post by pbrowne »

Hi Soren

From apache85:
Yes, ground units (called 'Facilities' whether they are vehicles, troops or buildings) will resupply from 'Munitions' magazines of other ground units in their group.

To add an ammo truck to your scenario:

Press Insert or Ctrl+Right Click > Add Unit
Click on the desired position
Select 'Facility' from the Type drop-down box
Enter 'ammo' into the Class field
Select "Vehicles (Ammo Truck x 4) -- Generic (Generic)" from the results
Click OK

To add weapons to your newly placed ammo truck:
Select the newly added unit and click 'Magazines' in the right hand side Unit Status bar
Select the Magazine named 'Munitions' and click the 'Add Weapons' button
Locate and add your desired weapon record by clicking 'Add Selected'

As a practice point, it's generally a good idea to add the 0/10000 record and set the number of weapons manually, however this is not strictly necessary

To enable transfer of weapons from the ammo truck to different units either group them together (select the relevant units and press G) or order the (ungrouped) units to replenish by right clicking the unit, then selecting 'Replenish if possible' from the context menu and choosing the appropriate option.

So there needs to be magazines already in the scenario that have ammunition for the relevant weapons in the scenario. For the M67 Recoiless Rifle mounted on the IDF jeeps, there would need to be appropriate 90mm ammo.

Now at Camp Amiad (just NW of Sea of Galilee) in the Cross Border Skirmish scenario, the facility contains several magazines (Ammo Bunker (Underground)), but surprising no ammo that I can see. I'm tempted to add weapons to one ammo bunker for 155mm Arty and 90 mm fixed ammunition rounds, though for the latter, I don't see any that are used in the M67:

M371A1 HEAT
M59O Canister APERS

Peter
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pbrowne
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RE: Mission 2: Cross-Border Skirmish

Post by pbrowne »

My question re resupply and M67 ammo was answered at https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4883165&mpage=1&key=&#4883499
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pbrowne
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RE: Mission 2: Cross-Border Skirmish

Post by pbrowne »

ORIGINAL: actrade

Doh, just figured out how to use the "ready selected aircraft" button. Didn't know I could change loadouts before the start, so got rid of Mirages carrying bombs and just guns and presto!

Ah, doesn't it take 3 hours to change the load out, or does this take effect with minimal time if just getting rid of bombs (and not loading Matras)?

Still with just guns against Migs with AA missiles, the Mirage would be at a disadvantage?

I really would like to get past the dozenth attempt at this scenario...
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pbrowne
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RE: Mission 2: Cross-Border Skirmish

Post by pbrowne »

OK, I finally managed to pass this scenario. Not too hard after all..

I found the Enemy Arty and AA just outside the exclusion area along the Israeli-Syria border with a single Meteor at 3000ft plotted to fly up and down that border with slight increments towards the east.

Destroyed those enemy positions focusing on the Syrian Arty batteries first (to minimize damage to the Israeli settlements) with the available 155mm Arty, Jeep mounted M-67 Recoiless Rifles and tracked recon units. What they couldn't destroy I used a few flights of Mystere with bombs.

Now, I knew from playing previously (not exactly real life...) that the Syrians wouldn't start their CAP or strike missions until 45 minutes into the scenario. So I launched all of my ground strike aircraft (Mystere and Ouragan with suitable loads) at the same time as launching the Meteor at the start of the scenario, to preemptively hit the three Syrian airbases (that's what the IDF are good at...). This resulted in quickly destroying at least eight Syrian aircraft on the ground, lots of points and a VERY UPSET hornet's nest of Migs. I quickly set the strike missions to RTB losing maybe one aircraft. At this point I think I'm at around 135 points.

Once the Migs are aroused, I keep all IDF aircraft on the ground, except for Mirages fitted with Matra R.530 Air to Air missiles, which are set to launch on hostile aircraft entering the exclusion area. These take out 3 to 4 Migs and M42 Duster Anti Aircraft batteries take out several more when the Syrian strike mission hits Camp Amiad north of the Sea of Galilee.

Otherwise, I weather the Syrian Migs with aircraft grounded, until the Migs RTB on Bingo/Winchester towards the end of the scenario. I then quickly launch all now rearmed ground strike aircraft to hit the three Syrian airbases, again taking out many Migs on the ground. By this time I have 200 points (out of 160 to pass) and lost 3 aircraft (1 Mirage and 2 Mystere/Ouragan). [:)]
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