Stymied at Baku

[hugh04]

Playing as the German in a server game. We are approaching the spring mud in 1943. Germans have hurt the Soviets in 41, taking Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov as well as inflicting large casualties. Victory conditions are 290 for the win, probably game would have ended if we had used the easier conditions.

42 saw allot of soviet attrition with over 120 division equivalents farmed by year end. However the strike to Baku went bust. After breaking the southern soviet armies and clearing the way to approach Stalingrad from the west and southwest, both 1rst panzer and 11th army moved toward Baku. We made it to the first river line west of Grozny, surged accross snagging two infantry corp and a couple of divisions. These armies were concentrated and ready to roll over the soviets and sieze Baku. But then the god of logistics struck, and he used a heavy hammer.

My front line in August was so far forward that little supply or fuel was getting through. Some armor units would start the turn with 1 mp. Partisans and a nasty amphib brigade staged raids breaking my rail line and preventing extending my rail heads for 6 turns. Mud saw my armies in the red for supply. When I pulled the plug on this advance, my averge morale in my infantry army (11th) was 57! and 1rst panzer army was in the 60's. The morale hit from being so far from a rail head was devastating.

Only after coming back to the Rostov area and resting on rail lines over 10 hexes from any soviets were these units able to recover to national morale. I started the campaign with some 86+ morale infantry and armor units and ended with tired and worn out units. Air supply simply could not support over 28 divisions and the attacks on my rail lines meant many turns of troops over 100 mp from a rail head. I was shocked how this turned out but logistics are harsh if you outrun them for any length of time.

[STEF78]

Baku is a permanent supply source and so almost impossible to take against an average russian player. Impossible to take against a good one.

[elloboloco]

Well, at least I did something right! You left one port on the Sea of Azov open and I was able to send the amphibious brigade and get it to your rail lines before you noticed. Other than that, your offensives of 41 and 42 were very impressive. I can not seem to be able to figure out how to stop or even slow down much, the immense strength of the panzer divisions using the alternate combat values. Am I wrong, or do the panzer divisions seem too strong now?

[beender]

I do have the impression or illusion that panzer divisions under alternative CV are stronger in combat.

[Denniss]

ORIGINAL: beender

I do have the impression or illusion that panzer divisions under alternative CV are stronger in combat.

I don't think so, better cv gives you a better prediction of combat results so you'll be more selective where to fight and where not.

[morvael]

ORIGINAL: beender

I do have the impression or illusion that panzer divisions under alternative CV are stronger in combat.

If you change only the method of calculation (without touching CV values of artillery and support elements) then nothing changes. It may be that you're simply more aggressive, seeing how strong they are, and being able to predict outcome better, and so you get more wins.

[beender]

That must be the explanation.

Also i noticed that different cv modes do get reflected in combat reports.

[GamesaurusRex]

Copied here for your convenience from my post in another recent thread...
_________________________________________________________________________

I have played the Grand Campaign scenario now for five years over and over again as the Russians versus Wheat, who is a "Master Level" Panzer Ball Player. (Through all the patch versions since 1.07.)

The one thing that is glaringly apparent is that, the standard initial morale settings, are entirely too strong in favor of the Germans in 1941-42. The Russian units are incapable of attacking or even penetrating German controlled hexes at that standard initial high differential.

IF you use the standard settings and play the game without the "extreme blizzard" and "1-1=2-1" options, the situation is made impossible, because those two options are the only settings that allow for any Russian attacks at all during 1941 winter... and without making those attacks, the Russians will suffer the well documented "snowball effect" downhill from there.

The fact is, given the current state of the game, there is no point for the Russian player to do anything other than retreat during 1941-42, except during the 41 "extreme blizzard". Using the standard morale settings and other than attacking during extreme blizzard, all Russian units smaller than Corp size are basically nothing but speed bumps that are going to get pocketed, if they stand and fight. (And here I would note that Morvael and Denniss greatly improved the game when they tried to fix the pocket "insta-death" of Russian units in the earlier patch versions.)

I have not yet given up attempting to manage the standard game settings by judicious Russian "fighting withdrawal"... but I am at the point where I have to concede that there is no "contest" here, unless you alter the initial game settings by reducing the Germans and raising the Russians. I don't know yet what a balanced change should be, but I'm guessing +5 for the Russians and -5 for the Germans as a starting point. Maybe, just maybe, this will slow the "Panzer Ball through butter"... but I'm not sure as we have not tried it yet with the latest patch.

The real problem is one of balance... since reducing the German strength in 41-42 in order to make it more reflective of reality must not go too far or it will penalize the German late game too much, while overly boosting the Russians. This is made more complex by the fact that the choice of using the "extreme blizzard" or "1-1=2-1" options completely changes the game, requiring different settings to make for a balanced game.

On the other hand, if you're entertained more by the myth of German Panzer "invinciblity"... then game on with the standard settings. Just accept that Leningrad and Moscow will be overrun in 41 and the Russians will need to run to the Urals before they can attack (unless you use the "extreme blizzard" and "1-1=2-1").

[elloboloco]

Right on Gamesaurus!

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

Copied here for your convenience from my post in another recent thread...
_________________________________________________________________________

I have played the Grand Campaign scenario now for five years over and over again as the Russians versus Wheat, who is a "Master Level" Panzer Ball Player. (Through all the patch versions since 1.07.)

The one thing that is glaringly apparent is that, the standard initial morale settings, are entirely too strong in favor of the Germans in 1941-42. The Russian units are incapable of attacking or even penetrating German controlled hexes at that standard initial high differential.

IF you use the standard settings and play the game without the "extreme blizzard" and "1-1=2-1" options, the situation is made impossible, because those two options are the only settings that allow for any Russian attacks at all during 1941 winter... and without making those attacks, the Russians will suffer the well documented "snowball effect" downhill from there.

The fact is, given the current state of the game, there is no point for the Russian player to do anything other than retreat during 1941-42, except during the 41 "extreme blizzard". Using the standard morale settings and other than attacking during extreme blizzard, all Russian units smaller than Corp size are basically nothing but speed bumps that are going to get pocketed, if they stand and fight. (And here I would note that Morvael and Denniss greatly improved the game when they tried to fix the pocket "insta-death" of Russian units in the earlier patch versions.)

I have not yet given up attempting to manage the standard game settings by judicious Russian "fighting withdrawal"... but I am at the point where I have to concede that there is no "contest" here, unless you alter the initial game settings by reducing the Germans and raising the Russians. I don't know yet what a balanced change should be, but I'm guessing +5 for the Russians and -5 for the Germans as a starting point. Maybe, just maybe, this will slow the "Panzer Ball through butter"... but I'm not sure as we have not tried it yet with the latest patch.

The real problem is one of balance... since reducing the German strength in 41-42 in order to make it more reflective of reality must not go too far or it will penalize the German late game too much, while overly boosting the Russians. This is made more complex by the fact that the choice of using the "extreme blizzard" or "1-1=2-1" options completely changes the game, requiring different settings to make for a balanced game.

On the other hand, if you're entertained more by the myth of German Panzer "invinciblity"... then game on with the standard settings. Just accept that Leningrad and Moscow will be overrun in 41 and the Russians will need to run to the Urals before they can attack (unless you use the "extreme blizzard" and "1-1=2-1").

You are really pushing this agenda ;-p. Say it enough people will start to believe..... or will they

[GamesaurusRex]

Morvael thinks it's an issue. I'll defer to his and Denniss' opinion.