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Catch up Tech - 3/8/2018 6:09:33 PM   
Taxman66


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It seems rather odd and brutally unfair that the opposing side gets a Tech catch up bonus off a non-mobilized major power, while powers allied to said non-mobilized major do not benefit from sharing until the major becomes mobilized.



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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/9/2018 3:58:34 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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Would have to agree.

Do non-mobilized powers get any catch up?

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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/9/2018 4:24:07 PM   
Taxman66


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I don't know for sure.

The text in the manual just says 'if your opponent...', so it depends on if non-mobilized powers consider powers on the side 'opponents'.

One would hope that if an active power gained catch up benefits from a non-active on the other side that it would work in reverse as well.

Still seems a bit weird.

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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/12/2018 8:30:18 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Hi Taxman66,

Just looking at the code, it looks like there is no mobilization check for either the highest enemy level, nor the highest friendly level, when performing these checks, just looking at alignments alone.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/12/2018 8:52:29 PM   
Taxman66


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So you are confirming that Germany and Italy benefit from US tech levels and the UK doesn't while the US is non active?

If so, that feels unfair.

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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/13/2018 12:07:33 AM   
Hubert Cater

 

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I may have mispoken above upon further review of the code and with what is written in the User Manual. Let me confirm with Bill and get back to you here.

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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/13/2018 3:42:59 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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I can confirm that this is an oversight and we'll correct this so that any enemy research will not be looked at unless the enemy is also at 100%.

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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/13/2018 3:54:22 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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I nominate taxman to be amongst the beta tester team for the next SC game!

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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/13/2018 4:26:58 PM   
Taxman66


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I'm pretty good at discovering 'unintended consiquences'

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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/13/2018 5:29:17 PM   
Sugar

 

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Just to make sure: is Taxman66's statement right, that research of minors like Italy is more or less useless, because Germany won't benefit from it in case Italy is faster in Int.? I know that Bill or Hubert said it`s not.

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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/13/2018 6:27:40 PM   
Taxman66


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I don't understand your question.

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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/13/2018 8:13:25 PM   
Sugar

 

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quote:

If my interpretation (which is what I've been questioning in this discussion) is correct, then for defensive purposes (i.e. preventing the other side from getting a bonus) then yes. If Germany is at 3, Italy 0, and the UK 2, then Italy will not get a research bonus while Germany will get one; and none of the Allies will.


Your post in the war room, taxman.

Therefor nobody gets any research bonus, if both sides lvl of Int. are the same (p.e. GB and Germany at 2, all the others at 1), if I understand correctly?

That would mean, the only reason to research Int. with both Axis` powers would be to get a breakthrough (since Germany starts already with 1 chit), but the bonus disappears at the point the other side reaches the same lvl.

Seems not to be right. Acording to the manual: "Each new level of Spying & Intelligence research increases your own research bonus by 1% and decreases your opponent’s bonus by 1%."

If I understand correctly, own research is only benefitting, if there's a difference in the lvls of Int. between your sides highest lvl and the other sides` highest lvl of Int.. If there's no difference between those lvls, there`s no benefit at all, and the difference between p.e. USA at lvl. 2 and Italy at lvl. 0 is not existing, if Germany and GB are at lvl 3?

That would mean, the only reason to research Int. is to get the next lvl before your opponent does, and to invest is a waste, if you're already late, if p.e. Germany already has the first lvl, and Italy didn`t invest so far.

The benefits of researching Int. should be: every single lvl of Int. should provide a progress of +1% under all circumstances. The additional benefit (+1% progress and -1% to your opponent) should only apply, if there`s a difference in the lvls of Int., no matter the major nation and its according war readiness or belonging.


< Message edited by Sugar -- 3/13/2018 8:27:58 PM >

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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/13/2018 8:27:16 PM   
Taxman66


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Thats the assumption I've made given what they have told us.

You also want to invest to eventually neutralize whatever bonus the other side gets if they are ahead, and you don't want to be 2 levels down. Additionally you are unlikely to ever know for sure if you are ahead or behind or even.

Also, don't discount the unit reveals it provides as well. At level 3 it's 3% per unit. 2 countries at level 3 would be 2 checks at 3% for each unit.

Lastly, not sure how this is directly related to the tech sharing/enemy catch up bonus, that this thread is discussing. They are independent issues (which have similar effects).

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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/13/2018 8:37:44 PM   
Sugar

 

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quote:

At level 3 it's 3% per unit. 2 countries at level 3 would be 2 checks at 3% for each unit.


I agree, there's a good reason to invest into Int., especially in PbEMs. But that's not the question, and if I understand correctly, this benefit only applies until both sides reached the last lvl.

I edited my post and added a demand: The benefits of researching Int. should be: every single lvl of Int. should provide a progress of +1% under all circumstances. The additional benefit (+1% progress and -1% to your opponent) should only apply, if there`s a difference in the lvls of Int., no matter the major nation and its according war readiness or belonging.

Sorry if my posts are confusing, english is not my first language, and I`m also getting old. :)

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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/13/2018 8:53:58 PM   
Taxman66


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That would make it more worthwhile, but something would be needed to balance it, as it would increase the speed at which techs are picked up and particularly favor Germany (while the UK also starts at level 1, Germany has more money/capability to invest in tech than anyone other than the US, who starts at level 0 and doesn't make as much until mobilized).

For clarification, mobilization issue only applies to the sharing bonus and the enemy catch up bonus. It has no effect on the spying & intel tech level.

< Message edited by Taxman66 -- 3/13/2018 8:56:22 PM >


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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/13/2018 9:18:12 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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My understanding was that the breakthrough bonus was not impacted by the other side tech spy tech level, only the research bonus was.

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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/13/2018 10:22:57 PM   
Taxman66


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If you read that other thread they are connected.
The breakthrough chance is equal to your base (before randomization roll) chance + various benefits.
So with 1 chit and no bonus it would be 5%, and 10% with 2 chits. If you have say +3% from various boni (sharing, catch up, S&I advantage) then your chance for a breakthrough would be 8% or 13% respectively.

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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/13/2018 10:30:04 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

If you read that other thread they are connected.
The breakthrough chance is equal to your base (before randomization roll) chance + various benefits.
So with 1 chit and no bonus it would be 5%, and 10% with 2 chits. If you have say +3% from various boni (sharing, catch up, S&I advantage) then your chance for a breakthrough would be 8% or 13% respectively.


I thought catch-up only applied to research increase %.

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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/13/2018 10:39:54 PM   
Taxman66


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Reread the section in the manual and read the other thread, particularly Hubert and Bill's comments.

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RE: Catch up Tech - 3/13/2018 11:31:47 PM   
Sugar

 

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quote:

That would make it more worthwhile, but something would be needed to balance it, as it would increase the speed at which techs are picked up


Of course, one could decrease overall progression related to the lvl, like in the predecessor. Additionally I`d prefer to increase the limits related to breakthroughs.

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