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Thank goodness for Command - 2/25/2018 8:33:28 PM   
thewood1

 

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I watched this video and kept wondering why you would play modern naval board game. People complain about the cost of Command and this game costs $80 and focuses on only a very small slice of what Command offers. I get the tactile feel of pushing things around the board, but this seems like a very painful way to play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=146&v=s8bGViSxDZI
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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/25/2018 9:07:46 PM   
rmunie0613

 

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When I was young, one of my first forays into wargaming was the board/miniature of Harpoon...and also the "Fleet" series from Victory... I actually still have them, it has been years since I played them but they are sort of a memento of, as you say, how far gaming has come.
I, too, seriously doubt I will ever play a different naval game now beside Command.

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/25/2018 11:05:43 PM   
mavfin

 

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I might have paid about $40 for Command/Northern Inferno/3 or 4 LIVEs in a 65% off sale, so Chains of War and Shifting Sands put me about $80, and a couple LIVEs plus Silent Service will put me over $80. Damned good value, I think!

Command is king at what it does, as Harpoon once was, but, Harpoon came out originally almost 40 years ago, and Harpoon 2 35+ years ago. They had no real successors till Command. Sure, Harpoon simply couldn't do what Command does now, but, you can't expect the same results from a game written 35-40 years ago for 386/486 than you can from one written for multicore processors, etc. People try to compare the two, but you really can't. They filled the same niche, but whole eras apart in gaming/simulation.

I never got into the paper wargaming or D&D on paper, so I can't comment on that much.



< Message edited by mavfin -- 2/25/2018 11:18:41 PM >

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 5:06:53 AM   
Dysta


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Not sure why, but last year has a bit of increase attention about turn-based games and DnD nostalga. Maybe some hypes about new video games or YouTube videos have brought them up.

I don't have much or experience with board game, mainly because Hong Kong isn't a perfect place to acquire these type of board game -- usually are traditional chess, Monopoly and other simple leisure. I have never encounter any RPG board game in my entire life, let alone Battleship or other military-based strategy games on the table.

I'd say video games made these games into publicity for a very good reason. But at the same time, enjoying bit of dice rolling with friends should not be underestimated.

Maybe I will get one, but I am not sure who will play with me because of language barrier (not all HK people can read English), and near-to-none interest of modern military.

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 8:34:01 AM   
rmunie0613

 

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I am not sure about DnD- never played it..and certainly the board (or even Harpoon paper) wargames are nothing at all like DnD.

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 11:59:54 AM   
Primarchx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I watched this video and kept wondering why you would play modern naval board game. People complain about the cost of Command and this game costs $80 and focuses on only a very small slice of what Command offers. I get the tactile feel of pushing things around the board, but this seems like a very painful way to play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=146&v=s8bGViSxDZI



Mainly because you can do one thing you can't with Command - play a real person head to head in a reasonable amount of time.

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 12:07:09 PM   
ExMachina


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx
Mainly because you can do one thing you can't with Command - play a real person head to head in a reasonable amount of time.


Yup. CMANO is certainly great but all of my fondest gaming memories come from tabletop games played at ridiculously late hours with friends.

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 12:07:25 PM   
thewood1

 

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If that person is nearby. I lived in Northern Maine when I was into ASL. I would have killed for a game like Command. The last stat I saw said that only 25% of board wargamers play face to face. The rest play solitaire.

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 12:09:59 PM   
thewood1

 

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btw, I noticed in the rules of that game that there is no hidden movement. I think the comment was that it was too complicated. To me, that defeats a huge part of naval warfare. Those are the concessions you have to make in boardgames.

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 12:31:54 PM   
Gunner98

 

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Cut my teeth on table top games. My high school wargame club (quite novel at the time I think) had a weekly game of Victory at Sea with transparency sheets run through a photo copy of a Janes FS image, yardsticks, referees and double blind maneuver cards. A fantastic experience but, replicating a skirmish between 1900 era cruisers and pre-dreadnaughts is one thing. Command is another altogether.

I very much doubt I would go back to a game like the one in the video, but if it works at keeping people gaming, introducing gaming to new players or in any way improving the theory of game design - that's good I think.

B

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 12:44:14 PM   
Primarchx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

btw, I noticed in the rules of that game that there is no hidden movement. I think the comment was that it was too complicated. To me, that defeats a huge part of naval warfare. Those are the concessions you have to make in boardgames.


One event I ref'd in college was a gigantic, multi-country conflict between modern states in the Indian Ocean. We used Harpoon, Fleet series rules, Command Decision and Air Superiority, as I recall. Took several months of Saturdays but was a real blast. The stinger at the end is that the players unknowingly installed Khan Noonian Singh (I referred to him as the 'Defense Minister' up until the end) as the leader of India. Good times!

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 2:29:41 PM   
kevinkins


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The Naval War College still recognizes board games in that they continue to use a physical representation of time, space, and force albeit most of the time with computer assistance (FOW and # crunching). Sorry, its huge, but see around page sixty:
http://www.professionalwargaming.co.uk/WarGamersHandbook.pdf

Can’t rule out tradition and the large teams involved in those war games are big factors for keeping a "game board" at the College. I remember seeing a recent RAND analysis on today's NATO ground forces vs Russia's that used a board game.

Here is a huge 2015 thread on Board vs. Computer Wargames with a lot of thoughtful comments from mostly board gamers - so little rebuttal: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1310363/solitaire-board-wargames-vs-computer-wargames/page/2

One sums it up for many: “I spend all day of my working week sat in front of a monitor. The last thing I want to do in the evening or at weekends is do the same.” Also: “For me, half the fun is the tactile delight of physically setting up the counters”. Another biggie: players fear their PC games will become obsolete: “I never found a table top that I can’t play my game on” even after 10 years of PC evolution. Players in that thread mention that lack of variety in PC Games since board games are so inexpensive to produce these days (low print and distribution costs).

So I guess if you are interested in modern naval warfare, current events and refuse PC games hands down, a product like the one in the video is your only option.

Very interesting topic that repeatedly comes up.

Kevin

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 2:40:29 PM   
SeaQueen


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The biggest problem I had with the old board game Harpoon was that because of the distances involved with modern warfare, unless you had a basketball court to play in, you basically couldn't play it!


quote:

ORIGINAL: rmunie0613

When I was young, one of my first forays into wargaming was the board/miniature of Harpoon...and also the "Fleet" series from Victory... I actually still have them, it has been years since I played them but they are sort of a memento of, as you say, how far gaming has come.
I, too, seriously doubt I will ever play a different naval game now beside Command.


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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 2:45:06 PM   
Primarchx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

The biggest problem I had with the old board game Harpoon was that because of the distances involved with modern warfare, unless you had a basketball court to play in, you basically couldn't play it!


We'd run at variable time/map scales for engagements.

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 3:30:30 PM   
djoos5


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I would have to agree with the comment above in kevinkin's post - it is the tactile-ness of board games and paper-pencil games that is appealing to me.

I really enjoy my PC games: CMANO, Strategic Command, Flashpoint Red Storm, along with all of the Xbox console content. But there are times when I love to break out my Avalon Hill and Victory games - whether it is to play Rise and Decline of the Third Reich, 6th Fleet, MBT, or even Axis and Allies. I love setting up my War of the Ring game and playing it with a friend, even though most times I know Sauron's forces are going to trounce over Middle-earth. There is something fun about the physicality of it all that a video game does not provide.

Don't get me wrong, I love CMANO and its function that allows me to click on any icon on the board and get a vast array of data for the platform or weapon. I love that it interacts all these pieces in real time to simulate a battle. It is truly awesome, but there is still something to sitting down at the table.

Maybe it is because I am older - in my 50's - and I grew up with that kind of gaming first. We had the fortune of watching computer games evolve into what they are today. I mean, my first foray into computer games was Pong. There is a comfort to opening a book, or manual, to discern the results. It is cool to look at all the counters on the board and think about how you will move them on your turn. To many, I am sure this is weird, but that is an enjoyment for me.

I do know that I cannot create the same interest for my son. He would rather run around in a FPS then to put his mind and time into my games, but I still try every time I get them out or there is a rainy Saturday to fill. I think it is unfortunate for him because he doesn't collect anything. Maybe that is just my nostalgia coming through, but I really like looking at my shelf and wondering what I want to do today. Where do I want to go?

Oh well, to each there own and as long as it is happy gaming!

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 3:47:23 PM   
Primarchx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: djoos5

...

I do know that I cannot create the same interest for my son. He would rather run around in a FPS then to put his mind and time into my games, but I still try every time I get them out or there is a rainy Saturday to fill. I think it is unfortunate for him because he doesn't collect anything. Maybe that is just my nostalgia coming through, but I really like looking at my shelf and wondering what I want to do today. Where do I want to go?

Oh well, to each there own and as long as it is happy gaming!


I wasn't even able to get my grandsons into Classic Arcade gaming (you know, with a quarter? :>). The games were 'too hard' and you couldn't pause them.

What has youth come to!?

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 3:48:14 PM   
Gunner98

 

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I do think there is a generational/age factor involved. When I play games with my daughters and son's-in-law, they take it quite seriously but there is a limit to the volume of 'rules' they want to, or are interested in digesting.

Card based games have the advantage that many of the rules are 'drip-fed' throughout the game as they come up, so you can get into the game itself quicker - And Mr. Google is always at hand if a problem or question is not immediately resolved. You can do a lot with card based games. I think this is also what a computer based game gives you, even Command - you can dive right in without reading the manual. As you stumble over things, and you will, your understanding of the game improves incrementally. More immediate satisfaction than wading through a rules tome, but probably not as efficient.

Quite interesting, and I'm sure game designers are paying attention to the trend.

B

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 4:24:03 PM   
jack54


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Command is indeed amazing but there are times when I don't want to look at a computer monitor. (I don't own South China Sea but I would have no problem playing it and it would be solo.)

Now the price of board games has become an issue IMHO

< Message edited by jack54 -- 2/26/2018 4:34:30 PM >


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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 6:30:22 PM   
Cik

 

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tabletop wargames are really fun, though i don't know if i would try actually playing something ultrarealistic.

i generally tend to stay in things that were designed as boardgames first, like battletech / BFG / epic armageddon etc. where necessary compromises to realism are easy to handwave due to the whole thing being fiction and far removed from reality.

if you are fielding an army of space-traveling football hooligans with 50 story tall war engines you start to care less about whether your radar shouldn't be .02% stronger to properly simulate real life.

granted i still prefer games with at least an attempt is made to model sensors but modeling 15 radars in ridiculous detail takes a back seat to modeling the fire plate of a plasma blastgun (which is more fun)

anyway they still have their place. nice thing is you can easily houserule something that isn't working right whereas while software is much better at managing automation and calculation getting it fixed and turned around is a longer process. likewise, tabletop roleplaying games are usually better because regardless of how dedicated a programmer is, you can only model so many interactions between the player and the world, whereas if your playground is the imagination you can do anything that you can think of (and that won't result in your friends punching you)

< Message edited by Cik -- 2/26/2018 6:58:06 PM >

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 7:06:04 PM   
BDukes

 

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Yes. Playing game with person is key.

Perhaps after Warfaresims done with scary strike editor they can get to multiplayer. Baloogs had a good home built thing. Not sure how many still use.


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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 7:15:01 PM   
apache85

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

If that person is nearby. I lived in Northern Maine when I was into ASL. I would have killed for a game like Command. The last stat I saw said that only 25% of board wargamers play face to face. The rest play solitaire.



That was always my problem; my social circle has zero interest in tabletop gaming or wargames. As a teenager I was really into tabletop wargaming but eventually I got bored with collecting stuff and never actually playing. I did get a few games in (less than 10 for sure), and unfortunately some of the games I did play against 'randoms' were less than satisfying...

I think that's why I like Command so much, whenever I feel like it I can play. And if I'm not having fun, I can switch to a different scenario or just do something else entirely. There's no pressure and it's basically 'on-tap'.

Also it doesn't throw tantrums when it loses (working on a Lua script for that)

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/26/2018 9:10:36 PM   
ultradave


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Played a LOT of WW2 naval miniatures in the past, using mostly 1:1200 models from Superior Models (this predates the 1:2400 GHQ models, which are also quite nice). We used Seapower 2 and 3 and also sometimes Seekrieg 4 (for smaller engagements - a little unwieldy for larger ones). I had a copy of the boxed Harpoon "board game" but never really played it other than a couple of one on one engagements.

Also played lots of various board games from AH, SPI, Victory Games, and others. In college one semester we had set up in a guys dorm room, the SPI monster game War in the East, and had usually 5 people playing, when we could get everyone together. Took all semester and we didn't finish. but we had a blast. Luckily the guy's room it was in had no roommate so we used the other half of the room for the game.

But opponents was always a problem.

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 2/27/2018 4:43:44 PM   
DWReese

 

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I own all of the board/computer versions of Harpoon dating back to the very beginning. I also own all of the SPI magazine/games dating from the 1970s through the 1990s.

Command is the best by far. I would easily pay $1000 for Command, if it were necessary. I am dead serious about that. It has brought me so many hours of enjoyment, and that would translate to just pennies a day for the number of times that I use it.

I also own each one of the modules, etc., and I would hope that everyone would continue to patronize this great game because of everything that they have created for each of us.

Doug

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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 3/1/2018 8:05:39 PM   
Slick91


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

Not sure why, but last year has a bit of increase attention about turn-based games and DnD nostalga. Maybe some hypes about new video games or YouTube videos have brought them up.



While I can't be 100% certain, the Netflix series Stranger Things has been linked to an increased interest in DnD.

Dungeons & Dragons is rampaging across pop culture like a fearsome Demogorgon.
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/stranger-breathes-fire-back-dungeons-dragons-article-1.2739642




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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 3/1/2018 8:11:59 PM   
Slick91


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmunie0613

I am not sure about DnD- never played it..and certainly the board (or even Harpoon paper) wargames are nothing at all like DnD.


I would like to politely disagree somewhat based on how classic board-game Harpoon is played.

The best way I’ve ever seen it played was with three groups of people: Blue team, Red team and an Umpire. Both teams were separated in different rooms and the Umpire would “manage” the game by playing the rules and giving the team certain contact and sensor information along the way to create a true “fog of war” element.

It was a heck of a lot different than having two people on opposite ends of the table moving counters around, etc.



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RE: Thank goodness for Command - 3/1/2018 10:03:00 PM   
Cik

 

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D&D is very partly a wargame. it's ancestor, gygax's chainmail was basically as far as i understand it, a medieval small unit tactics game.

even today most RPGs are basically games where you are often thrust into the role of a commander, if sometimes only of your specifically tailored character against whatever specifically tailored monster. there's a lot of strategy involved, especially in certain games where often one wrong move and you're dead.

there is not a sharp as distinction as people think. most wargames can even be played in a RPG-ish format, allowing for specific characters and stories to play out as part of a larger campaign.




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