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Air units - 2/15/2018 8:45:39 PM   
warspite1


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I don't understand why the program ignores orders for air units? I mean what is the point of having Air Assistant Off so that control can be maintained over one's air units - and then find those orders are simply overridden?? I've just lost 12 aircraft that should never have been in the air. Why is this game mechanic in place? It makes no sense.

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RE: Air units - 2/15/2018 8:51:02 PM   
Lobster


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Please post this as a bug. If air assistant is off there should be no actions performed by your air units other than the ones you assign them as far as I know. Of course your air units will attempt to defend their airbase when it is attacked if I recall correctly.

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RE: Air units - 2/16/2018 3:28:40 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I don't understand why the program ignores orders for air units? I mean what is the point of having Air Assistant Off so that control can be maintained over one's air units - and then find those orders are simply overridden?? I've just lost 12 aircraft that should never have been in the air. Why is this game mechanic in place? It makes no sense.



Is it possible those were non-combat losses?

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RE: Air units - 2/16/2018 3:52:42 PM   
devoncop


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As Warspite's opponent in the CFNA AAR he is doing I am not sure which specific combat he is referring to as I cannot look at the AAR but I can confirm 3 airfield attacks on my turn v his airfields which may well have brought his fighters into the air.

HOWEVER....none of those attacks were authorised by myself...the air assistant was off and each of my air units had been set to rest or specific missions such as naval interdiction or air strikes on the Tobruk garrison. I lost a large number of planes myself during these attacks as the airfields were well defended. This was distinctly irksome but fortunately the following turn there has been no such idiocy.

I will see if the problem persists.

Warspite may be able to confirm if the losses were during the airfield attacks or not.

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RE: Air units - 2/17/2018 6:54:34 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I don't understand why the program ignores orders for air units? I mean what is the point of having Air Assistant Off so that control can be maintained over one's air units - and then find those orders are simply overridden?? I've just lost 12 aircraft that should never have been in the air. Why is this game mechanic in place? It makes no sense.



Is it possible those were non-combat losses?
warspite1

No. When a squadron is ordered to rest in, for example, Mersa Matruh, and it then flies - and is shot down - over Tobruk it is not a non-combat loss


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RE: Air units - 2/17/2018 6:58:04 PM   
warspite1


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All three squadrons have one thing in common. They were ordered to rest..... This is game-changing stuff - I'm trying to manage my precious few squadrons to they are available for certain functions and then they go and fly and get evaporated or badly mauled for no reason and are then unavailable when I need them.

I see devoncop just "launched" two airfield attacks which, no doubt, he didn't.....

Has anyone else noticed this issue other than in a CFNA scenario?




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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/17/2018 7:01:39 PM >


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RE: Air units - 2/17/2018 7:42:04 PM   
btd64


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Yes, I have in a number of different scenarios. But did you set the option from within the scenario or from the options menus before starting the scenario?....GP

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RE: Air units - 2/17/2018 8:39:51 PM   
devoncop


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Hi

I only set mine within the scenario. Not sure what Warspite did.

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RE: Air units - 2/18/2018 4:27:44 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64

Yes, I have in a number of different scenarios. But did you set the option from within the scenario or from the options menus before starting the scenario?....GP


It should not matter when you turned off the air assistant. Off means off. Players should not have to guess when off doesn't mean off. If this is happening in any scenario and it can be reproduced it should be reported as a bug and the turn should be made available in the bug report so Dev can see it.

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RE: Air units - 2/18/2018 6:33:46 AM   
sPzAbt653


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18.7. unIt deployments and aIr unIt mIssIons
Remember that if Air units are “resting” they will not respond to enemy
air action. (Actually, the units will still rise to their own defense if their base is attacked.)


Base on that, there may be something wrong. Try to turn on the TOAW LOG and maybe post it here so that someone can take a look and maybe figure out what is going on.

For myself, it has been my practice for a long time to move air units back out of range in order to rest and refit. I know in some scenarios this is difficult due to map size, but look for airfields with 'distance'.

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RE: Air units - 2/18/2018 9:44:25 AM   
larryfulkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
For myself, it has been my practice for a long time to move air units back out of range
in order to rest and refit. I know in some scenarios this is difficult due to map size,
but look for airfields with 'distance'.

I do exactly the same thing. For one thing the supply levels are usually higher in the
rear and the planes can rest and refit faster that way. I'm playing D21 right now and
I try to fly all the "yellow" planes to the coast near Konigsburg or one of the four
airfields around Minsk and for the "orange" ones they usually park near Berlin for awhile.
Just to make the game more realistic for me, I've been flying the Rumanian planes to rest
near Budapest and the Hungarians near Sophia. They have the range and they are going to
be down for maint. for a while anyway, why not give them a couple of days leave in their
home country?

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RE: Air units - 2/18/2018 10:19:49 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
For myself, it has been my practice for a long time to move air units back out of range
in order to rest and refit. I know in some scenarios this is difficult due to map size,
but look for airfields with 'distance'.

I do exactly the same thing. For one thing the supply levels are usually higher in the
rear and the planes can rest and refit faster that way. I'm playing D21 right now and
I try to fly all the "yellow" planes to the coast near Konigsburg or one of the four
airfields around Minsk and for the "orange" ones they usually park near Berlin for awhile.
Just to make the game more realistic for me, I've been flying the Rumanian planes to rest
near Budapest
and the Hungarians near Sophia. They have the range and they are going to
be down for maint. for a while anyway, why not give them a couple of days leave in their
home country?
warspite1

Hi Larry I really hope that's a mis-print or that is one flipped up scenario!

Firstly, if you are flying Romanian planes to Budapest then I assume that's on a bombing mission - and regardless of whether it is or isn't, how many actually land before being shot out of the sky by Hungarian AA or fighter units?

For Hungarian planes to get to Sofia they must fly over Romanian airspace. So regardless of what the Bulgarians think of planes that have been fighting the Soviets landing in their capital (this is Bulgaria that refuses to fight the Soviets remember - (but maybe that happened??)) they are still going to have to fly the gauntlet of Romanian fighters and AA to get there.

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Post #: 12
RE: Air units - 2/18/2018 1:02:07 PM   
larryfulkerson


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From: Tucson, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
I do exactly the same thing. For one thing the supply levels are usually higher in the
rear and the planes can rest and refit faster that way. I'm playing D21 right now and
I try to fly all the "yellow" planes to the coast near Konigsburg or one of the four
airfields around Minsk and for the "orange" ones they usually park near Berlin for awhile.
Just to make the game more realistic for me, I've been flying the Rumanian planes to rest
near Budapest
and the Hungarians near Sophia. They have the range and they are going to
be down for maint. for a while anyway, why not give them a couple of days leave in their
home country?
warspite1
Hi Larry I really hope that's a mis-print or that is one flipped up scenario!

Firstly, if you are flying Romanian planes to Budapest then I assume that's on a bombing mission - and regardless of whether it is or isn't, how many actually land before being shot out of the sky by Hungarian AA or fighter units?

For Hungarian planes to get to Sofia they must fly over Romanian airspace. So regardless of what the Bulgarians think of planes that have been fighting the Soviets landing in their capital (this is Bulgaria that refuses to fight the Soviets remember - (but maybe that happened??)) they are still going to have to fly the gauntlet of Romanian fighters and AA to get there.

Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking. Too much inebriation and drunkness. I usually play
with a buzz on. Helps me organize my thoughts. At any rate, I don't mean Budapest and yes
Sophia is not the place to fly Hungarians. Hungarians need to go to Hungaria to rest. LOL.

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Post #: 13
RE: Air units - 2/18/2018 1:05:35 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
I do exactly the same thing. For one thing the supply levels are usually higher in the
rear and the planes can rest and refit faster that way. I'm playing D21 right now and
I try to fly all the "yellow" planes to the coast near Konigsburg or one of the four
airfields around Minsk and for the "orange" ones they usually park near Berlin for awhile.
Just to make the game more realistic for me, I've been flying the Rumanian planes to rest
near Budapest
and the Hungarians near Sophia. They have the range and they are going to
be down for maint. for a while anyway, why not give them a couple of days leave in their
home country?
warspite1
Hi Larry I really hope that's a mis-print or that is one flipped up scenario!

Firstly, if you are flying Romanian planes to Budapest then I assume that's on a bombing mission - and regardless of whether it is or isn't, how many actually land before being shot out of the sky by Hungarian AA or fighter units?

For Hungarian planes to get to Sofia they must fly over Romanian airspace. So regardless of what the Bulgarians think of planes that have been fighting the Soviets landing in their capital (this is Bulgaria that refuses to fight the Soviets remember - (but maybe that happened??)) they are still going to have to fly the gauntlet of Romanian fighters and AA to get there.

Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking. Too much inebriation and drunkness. I usually play
with a buzz on
. Helps me organize my thoughts. At any rate, I don't mean Budapest and yes
Sophia is not the place to fly Hungarians. Hungarians need to go to Hungaria to rest. LOL.
warspite1

- could be an interesting scenario idea though couldn't it? As the Germans advance so the Hungarians and Romanians kick seven types of crap out of each other


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Post #: 14
RE: Air units - 2/18/2018 1:12:35 PM   
larryfulkerson


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From: Tucson, AZ
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quote:

could be an interesting scenario idea though couldn't it? As the Germans advance so the Hungarians and Romanians kick seven types of crap out of each other

At least one of the Axis minor allies actually switches sides during the war. I don't remember which nation and what
the circumstances are but there's some kind of trigger for them and if it's pulled then they start fighting for the
Soviets. I think it's the Bulgarians but I'm not sure. Makes for an interesting war.

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RE: Air units - 2/18/2018 2:27:21 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

could be an interesting scenario idea though couldn't it? As the Germans advance so the Hungarians and Romanians kick seven types of crap out of each other

At least one of the Axis minor allies actually switches sides during the war. I don't remember which nation and what
the circumstances are but there's some kind of trigger for them and if it's pulled then they start fighting for the
Soviets. I think it's the Bulgarians but I'm not sure. Makes for an interesting war.
warspite1

They pretty much all did - after a fashion


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RE: Air units - 2/18/2018 5:02:28 PM   
devoncop


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The performance of the Italians in the CFNA scenario (with honourable exception of their Artillery) suggests they may have joined the 8th Army already.....

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RE: Air units - 2/18/2018 6:38:39 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

could be an interesting scenario idea though couldn't it? As the Germans advance so the Hungarians and Romanians kick seven types of crap out of each other

At least one of the Axis minor allies actually switches sides during the war. I don't remember which nation and what
the circumstances are but there's some kind of trigger for them and if it's pulled then they start fighting for the
Soviets. I think it's the Bulgarians but I'm not sure. Makes for an interesting war.
warspite1

They pretty much all did - after a fashion



You tend to do that if someone has a gun pointed at your head.

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RE: Air units - 2/18/2018 10:57:32 PM   
larryfulkerson


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quote:

You tend to do that if someone has a gun pointed at your head.

The Allies just said whatever the Axis is paying you I'll double it. That usually does the trick.

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RE: Air units - 2/19/2018 5:35:13 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

You tend to do that if someone has a gun pointed at your head.

The Allies just said whatever the Axis is paying you I'll double it. That usually does the trick.
warspite1

Each of the minor Axis powers had their own reasons for throwing their lot in with the Nazis. But when the Soviets pushed the Germans back I don't think payment had anything to do with the changing of sides.


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RE: Air units - 2/19/2018 2:28:43 PM   
DanNeely

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

You tend to do that if someone has a gun pointed at your head.

The Allies just said whatever the Axis is paying you I'll double it. That usually does the trick.
warspite1

Each of the minor Axis powers had their own reasons for throwing their lot in with the Nazis. But when the Soviets pushed the Germans back I don't think payment had anything to do with the changing of sides.



Disagree. In both cases the minors got "paid" in not having a super power stomp them into the mud immediately. Instead they were crushed into the filth on an installment plan.

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RE: Air units - 2/20/2018 5:45:53 AM   
echo9c

 

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So, I'm playing Bitter Victory Sicily 1943, solitaire with both sides set with the air staff assistant off. I end the Axis turn with no attacks planned. The allies conduct +40 air attacks on a variety of targets. The turn ends and I check the Allied Air Unit report. I confirm the air assistant is off. The air units are on Interdiction, air superiority and 1 unit is on combat support. Most of them are now reorganizing after this mass of air attacks. Does this happen because of 9.1.4 Air Superiority and Interdiction - "Impairing your opponent's ability to supply his force" and "units performing interdiction missions are subject to interdiction by enemy air units with air superiority missions" or is it something that I don't understand about the game?

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RE: Air units - 2/20/2018 6:30:38 AM   
devoncop


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Firstly....how many of the Allied attacks were Airfield attacks?I would guess quite a few. That forces Axis fighter planes up to defend their bases even if outnumbered and may be most of the reason for the chaos



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RE: Air units - 2/20/2018 12:39:44 PM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: echo9c

Most of them are now reorganizing after this mass of air attacks.



There are a few reasons this happens to a unit. Open the manual and do a search (the little magnifying glass towards the left top) for reorganizing. It would be helpful if, when you put the game cursor over a reorganizing unit, it would give a reason for the reorganizing status.



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RE: Air units - 2/21/2018 3:05:12 AM   
echo9c

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: devoncop

Firstly....how many of the Allied attacks were Airfield attacks?I would guess quite a few. That forces Axis fighter planes up to defend their bases even if outnumbered and may be most of the reason for the chaos



I'm not sure how many were airfield attacks. I'll have to go back to the game, play another turn and have a look.

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RE: Air units - 2/21/2018 3:23:40 AM   
echo9c

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: echo9c

Most of them are now reorganizing after this mass of air attacks.



There are a few reasons this happens to a unit. Open the manual and do a search (the little magnifying glass towards the left top) for reorganizing. It would be helpful if, when you put the game cursor over a reorganizing unit, it would give a reason for the reorganizing status.



I understand the aspects of reorganizing, that's not my issue. I always played the earlier versions of Opart with the air assistant managing the air war. However TOAW IV with its time stamp and IMO a much easier system of managing time encouraged me into looking after the air war in addition to the ground war. I read warspite's post on his problems with the air force attacking and although I'm not sure if I'm having the same issue I couldn't find anything in the manual other then maybe rule 9.1.4, that explained why both the Allied and Axis are were doing all these attacks when I ended a turn, as I had not ordered any attacks, but I had set most of the units on air superiority and combat support. I hope this makes sense, its not always easy to explain what you mean in print. (I'll take face to face conversations with a couple of beers any day:) ) If anyone can explain whats going on, I'd appreciate it, if not, its not a show stopper for me. I just like to try understand the "why" of these things.

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