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Why are Germans better at digging than Russians?

 
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Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 2/10/2018 3:51:11 AM   
thedoctorking


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I've been noticing since the new patch came out that my guys don't dig as well as they used to. Maybe it's just me. Even with a couple of 50-Exp Sapper Regiments, we don't dig as fast as the Germans. You'd think it would be the other way around. Digging is one thing the Soviets ought to be really good at.

And does the civilian construction bonus work as advertised?

Also, is there any way to assign a construction unit to rebuilding a city-based facility? You'd think they would be good at that too.
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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 2/10/2018 7:48:33 AM   
Stelteck

 

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Training about how to use a tower is linked to XP

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 2/10/2018 12:28:35 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking
Also, is there any way to assign a construction unit to rebuilding a city-based facility?


If you mean like a factory not in WitE1. But someone wrote it will be in WitE2.

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 2/10/2018 2:28:28 PM   
thedoctorking


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It just seems like if you leave Germans alone on the front line for a couple of turns, they have entrenchment level 2, while Russians in quiet rear area sectors sit there for months and can't get beyond level 1.

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 2/10/2018 2:50:55 PM   
Telemecus


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It is worth choosing the units with high construction values in their unit details. Get a couple of good construction value units and you will go up several levels quick. Sadly the Soviet side does not have too many of them.

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 2/10/2018 3:47:22 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

It is worth choosing the units with high construction values in their unit details. Get a couple of good construction value units and you will go up several levels quick. Sadly the Soviet side does not have too many of them.


It used to be much much worse in the previous patch. At least in the current patch the Soviets can entrench pretty well now. But exactly what Telemecus wrote, you need units with high entrenchment values and those units are normally high morale units and in the early game your Tank/Mech. I wrote about this in the Dinglir AAR and still has some relevance today. Experience matters in the units ;-)

_____________________________

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 2/10/2018 6:08:13 PM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

It just seems like if you leave Germans alone on the front line for a couple of turns, they have entrenchment level 2, while Russians in quiet rear area sectors sit there for months and can't get beyond level 1.


Far away from the frontlines you cannot get to high fort levels without fort units.

(in reply to thedoctorking)
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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 2/11/2018 2:08:58 AM   
thedoctorking


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Yeah, but two or three hexes back that isn't an issue. I put a fort unit and a good experience division with two or three sapper regiments in one of the hexes at the mouth of the Neva on turn 6 or so, and when the Germans arrive in front of the hex on turn 10, I consider myself lucky if I have fort level 2. The Germans retreat a bit during the mud and when I catch up with them two turns later, they have fort level 2. Seems unrealistic to me. One thing the Russians knew how to do in 1941 was dig trenches.

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 2/11/2018 2:36:14 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

Yeah, but two or three hexes back that isn't an issue. I put a fort unit and a good experience division with two or three sapper regiments in one of the hexes at the mouth of the Neva on turn 6 or so, and when the Germans arrive in front of the hex on turn 10, I consider myself lucky if I have fort level 2. The Germans retreat a bit during the mud and when I catch up with them two turns later, they have fort level 2. Seems unrealistic to me. One thing the Russians knew how to do in 1941 was dig trenches.


Personnally I dont believe that the hype of Russians digging in faster than anyone else. I think this is an overblown myth. But of course always happy to hear from historians to show the different rates Soviet men entrench faster than German men or US men.

_____________________________

“If you teach a man anything, he will never learn.”;

Bernard Shaw

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 2/11/2018 11:06:06 AM   
Searry

 

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I think digging levels should be the same for the Soviets and the Germans.

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 2/11/2018 11:10:59 AM   
morvael


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Soviets have bonus to digging, but their lower experience, smaller units and probably less engineer squads result in lower entrenchment rates.

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 2/12/2018 4:53:06 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking
You'd think it would be the other way around. Digging is one thing the Soviets ought to be really good at.


Just was going through some economic statistics that reminded me of this question - and the important difference between effort and productivity. No doubt the Soviet side had heroic efforts with many having a stakhanovite attitude to digging. But a mechanical digger still will win the day. Like the economy, the German army needed less effort to dig because it was better capitalised/mechanised.

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 3/1/2018 1:41:47 AM   
BrianG

 

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Having retreating fast in my latest game, the hex limit to increase beyond 1X fort is way too low.

It should go back to at least 5 or 6 hexes.

AND again German afv wear and tear should be based on Km moved and combat.

And No mercy should be given to the Km moved wear and tear penalty.

(in reply to Telemecus)
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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 3/1/2018 12:25:50 PM   
darbycmcd

 

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I also think we are too focused on entrenching as the act of digging. It is really the process over many days which serve as a force multiplier on the defense. More than foxholes, which really is worth like level 0 25%, as every front-line unit would do that in one day (1/7 of a turn), it is far more about things like, proper siting of those foxholes, with oblique interlocking fields of fire, marked fire-lanes and well communicated fire discipline plans, effective LP/OP network, pre-registered arty strike zones, fallback defensive positions with integrated resupply plans, buried wire for communications, my gosh even something like a well made latrine system and established rotation back for hot food can make soldiers fight better.

And around level 2 are you talking things like minefields and wire mobility limiters (which have to be integrated into fire-plans to be effective), hardened shelters, or deception efforts, multiple firing positions for arty or armor, all that kind of stuff.

And these are the areas where the German army would really shine compared to the soviets. The German army advantage in the NCO and unit leadership levels would mean they would be much, much more effective at this stuff. It is easy to have the commissar come over and kick guys until they start digging holes, but when a divisional or regimental commander knows that the lower level guys will just do the complex stuff because they know how to do the complex stuff, things will happen much quicker. And that allows the higher level command to focus on things like lateral integration, coordination with combat support assets, supply management, etc.

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 3/1/2018 5:18:48 PM   
thedoctorking


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All good points, darby. I guess that translates in game terms into higher construction ratings.

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 3/3/2018 7:20:20 AM   
Dinglir


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One further point: As the Soviets were really porly equipped in the early war (ie not every rifleman actually having a rifle), it stands to reason that they would not all have shovels either.

I remember reading in Viktor Nekrasov's book Stalingrad, that they often saw pilfering of shovels and spades, which suggests that even in 1942, the frontline troops simply did not have as easy access to these items as they would have liked.



_____________________________

We need only to kick in the door, and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down.

Adolf Hitler, on the eve of Barbarossa.
-----

There are only 10 kinds of people. Those that use binary numbers and those that do not.

Unknown origi

(in reply to thedoctorking)
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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 3/4/2018 11:42:58 AM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

Yeah, but two or three hexes back that isn't an issue. I put a fort unit and a good experience division with two or three sapper regiments in one of the hexes at the mouth of the Neva on turn 6 or so, and when the Germans arrive in front of the hex on turn 10, I consider myself lucky if I have fort level 2. The Germans retreat a bit during the mud and when I catch up with them two turns later, they have fort level 2. Seems unrealistic to me. One thing the Russians knew how to do in 1941 was dig trenches.


Personnally I dont believe that the hype of Russians digging in faster than anyone else. I think this is an overblown myth. But of course always happy to hear from historians to show the different rates Soviet men entrench faster than German men or US men.


Early games like Squad Leader promoted this myth. The Soviet units dug foxholes (which protect squads from direct fire as good as a wooden building and indirect fire from all but the heaviest calibers. The other concepts discussed in this thread required “points” or some pre scenario rules to emplace. In all dug in Soviets were much more difficult to “move” (meaning rout ) and thus the digging there was a great advantage. Some other operational games like Drang Nach Osteen also perpetrated the mythical Soviet “digging” qualities when in fact defenses at that level require much more complex planning and resources beyond digging.

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 3/4/2018 9:39:28 PM   
tomeck48

 

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If soviet digging in is a myth, then it is a pervasive and wide spread myth and predates even the early games from late 60's and 70's. Perhaps there is something to it. A possible solution is to give the Soviets a better bonus to get them to level 1 or 2 faster, then have it drop off back to the current state.

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 3/5/2018 12:49:34 PM   
Telemecus


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To be fair the Soviets did have greater abilities to mobilise the civilian population to join in the digging - as you would expect for the Stalinist system. Almost the whole Moscow population dug three enormous anti tank ditches around Moscow which left the German High Command dumb struck. This is of course modelled by the game in using civilian assistance to dig near big cities. I believe this is the source of what I would call a half truth rather than a myth. But when the Soviet Union could not mobilise large amounts of manpower to dig it did not achieve spectacular results. Man for man the Germans could still fortify better as they had better equipment.

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 3/5/2018 1:11:28 PM   
PPetar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

One further point: As the Soviets were really porly equipped in the early war (ie not every rifleman actually having a rifle), it stands to reason that they would not all have shovels either.

I remember reading in Viktor Nekrasov's book Stalingrad, that they often saw pilfering of shovels and spades, which suggests that even in 1942, the frontline troops simply did not have as easy access to these items as they would have liked.



quote:

One further point: As the Soviets were really porly equipped in the early war (ie not every rifleman actually having a rifle), it stands to reason that they would not all have shovels either.

I remember reading in Viktor Nekrasov's book Stalingrad, that they often saw pilfering of shovels and spades, which suggests that even in 1942, the frontline troops simply did not have as easy access to these items as they would have liked.



I really don't want to start a war, or insult someone, and i know this is not a thread for this, but "not every rifleman actually having a rifle" ... I mean, picture the Soviet union during the war as you like, but why would someone send a man without a rifle to fight? To shout at the Germans? It's just illogical...
And i'm saying this because the respect i have for normal Soviet people who bravely fought in the war, commissars and political leadership you can criticize all you want...
Hope i'm not out of line here, just had to say this

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 3/6/2018 6:40:07 AM   
postfux

 

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Not sure if this is adding to the discussion, but when my sister was making her garden she got complimented she would dig like a russian woman by someone who should know.

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 3/6/2018 10:22:21 PM   
thedoctorking


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That "not everybody had a rifle" thing is part of the Great Patriotic War popular culture legend. I'm pretty sure it was rare to have folks without even personal weapons on the front line. That said, there were plenty of Soviet units that went into action with gross shortages of ammo, support weapons, etc.

So, regarding the opening scene of "Enemy at the Gates", the Guards division that we see attacking had just arrived by train on the eastern shore of the Volga and manpower was desperately needed to defend the ferry landings. So despite the fact that their support weapons were several trains back and wouldn't be unloaded for a couple of days, they were rushed into battle. They had plenty of rifles, just no artillery or other heavy weapons (a "hasty attack" in game terms).

The Soviet leadership became much more careful of conserving manpower after the spring of 1942 when Zhukov convinced Stalin to back off day-to-day military leadership. So again, the screaming wave of ant-like Russians vision of the war only refers to the first year or so, mostly.

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 3/8/2018 10:48:06 AM   
PPetar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

That "not everybody had a rifle" thing is part of the Great Patriotic War popular culture legend. I'm pretty sure it was rare to have folks without even personal weapons on the front line. That said, there were plenty of Soviet units that went into action with gross shortages of ammo, support weapons, etc.

So, regarding the opening scene of "Enemy at the Gates", the Guards division that we see attacking had just arrived by train on the eastern shore of the Volga and manpower was desperately needed to defend the ferry landings. So despite the fact that their support weapons were several trains back and wouldn't be unloaded for a couple of days, they were rushed into battle. They had plenty of rifles, just no artillery or other heavy weapons (a "hasty attack" in game terms).

The Soviet leadership became much more careful of conserving manpower after the spring of 1942 when Zhukov convinced Stalin to back off day-to-day military leadership. So again, the screaming wave of ant-like Russians vision of the war only refers to the first year or so, mostly.

That's pretty much how i understood it too...

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 3/14/2018 6:45:53 AM   
randallw

 

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Back to the fortification thing....

Maybe there's a bug in the database. The first Soviet sapper upgrade ( happens towards the end of the 3rd quarter of 1941 ) causes them to be produced for parts of two months, then there are no more sappers produced until the last quarter of 1942. Maybe the end date of the first upgrade is supposed to be 1942?

I mentioned this problem in the tech support thread; it hasn't been handled yet.

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 3/15/2018 4:29:09 AM   
thedoctorking


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quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

Back to the fortification thing....

Maybe there's a bug in the database. The first Soviet sapper upgrade ( happens towards the end of the 3rd quarter of 1941 ) causes them to be produced for parts of two months, then there are no more sappers produced until the last quarter of 1942. Maybe the end date of the first upgrade is supposed to be 1942?

I mentioned this problem in the tech support thread; it hasn't been handled yet.

This was fixed in the newest patch. Make sure you are fully updated.

(in reply to randallw)
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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 3/15/2018 7:27:42 PM   
Dinglir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

That "not everybody had a rifle" thing is part of the Great Patriotic War popular culture legend. I'm pretty sure it was rare to have folks without even personal weapons on the front line. That said, there were plenty of Soviet units that went into action with gross shortages of ammo, support weapons, etc.

So, regarding the opening scene of "Enemy at the Gates", the Guards division that we see attacking had just arrived by train on the eastern shore of the Volga and manpower was desperately needed to defend the ferry landings. So despite the fact that their support weapons were several trains back and wouldn't be unloaded for a couple of days, they were rushed into battle. They had plenty of rifles, just no artillery or other heavy weapons (a "hasty attack" in game terms).

The Soviet leadership became much more careful of conserving manpower after the spring of 1942 when Zhukov convinced Stalin to back off day-to-day military leadership. So again, the screaming wave of ant-like Russians vision of the war only refers to the first year or so, mostly.


One of the sources I know of, was a description of the Soviet style of attack made by a Danish SS soldier, describing the battle of the Demyansk pocket in early spring 1942 (my own translation from Danish to English): "It was like, how to say it, a horde that came charging. It was only the ones in front that had weapons. When they fell, the next ones grapped the weapon, and then yelled 'Huzzah'! It was as simple as lying there picking them off one by one. Ammunition was no issue to us."


< Message edited by Dinglir -- 3/15/2018 7:29:58 PM >


_____________________________

We need only to kick in the door, and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down.

Adolf Hitler, on the eve of Barbarossa.
-----

There are only 10 kinds of people. Those that use binary numbers and those that do not.

Unknown origi

(in reply to thedoctorking)
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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 3/15/2018 11:47:19 PM   
randallw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

Back to the fortification thing....

Maybe there's a bug in the database. The first Soviet sapper upgrade ( happens towards the end of the 3rd quarter of 1941 ) causes them to be produced for parts of two months, then there are no more sappers produced until the last quarter of 1942. Maybe the end date of the first upgrade is supposed to be 1942?

I mentioned this problem in the tech support thread; it hasn't been handled yet.

This was fixed in the newest patch. Make sure you are fully updated.


I have version 1.11 of the game. According to the gamemenu window it is the latest update.

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 27
RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 3/16/2018 1:53:34 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

Back to the fortification thing....

Maybe there's a bug in the database. The first Soviet sapper upgrade ( happens towards the end of the 3rd quarter of 1941 ) causes them to be produced for parts of two months, then there are no more sappers produced until the last quarter of 1942. Maybe the end date of the first upgrade is supposed to be 1942?

I mentioned this problem in the tech support thread; it hasn't been handled yet.

This was fixed in the newest patch. Make sure you are fully updated.


I have version 1.11 of the game. According to the gamemenu window it is the latest update.

May want to check for 1.11.01 - the latest public beta perhaps?

(in reply to randallw)
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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 3/17/2018 11:13:16 PM   
randallw

 

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I've installed 1.11.01; the 1941 sappers still have the same cutoff date for their end production.

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RE: Why are Germans better at digging than Russians? - 3/22/2018 2:10:22 PM   
morvael


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This was done on purpose, ask Denniss. It's not a code change, it's data change.

(in reply to randallw)
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