Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Advanced Strike Planner

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Air / Naval Operations >> RE: Advanced Strike Planner Page: <<   < prev  2 3 4 5 [6]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/13/2018 3:09:37 PM   
BDukes

 

Posts: 149
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stilesw

emsoy & thewood1,

I absolutely believe this! I worked with the daily ATO process at Red/Green Flag (Nellis AFB) 1988-1997. The operations plans were created with a roomful of 12+ experienced air strike planners and an IBM mainframe cruncher (dinosaur now - today's PCs would have been great).

Developing the code for CMANO to do the same thing that involves fuel, AEW, OECM, loadouts, strike flight sizes, intelligence reports, hostile defensive ground units, etc, etc, etc would be far from a trivial or even moderate effort. And this was in a "peaceful" training environment. Doing it in the field during Desert Storm boggles the mind.

The beta AMP that has been created to date would have that whole staff green with envy (and heading for the O'Club).

Kudos for what I've seen to date.

-Wayne




I second this. They have done great work and have answered difficult questions when asked.

(in reply to stilesw)
Post #: 151
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/14/2018 2:28:15 PM   
tango4

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/19/2014
Status: offline
Just as a sidenote here, instead of answering the question "what do I need in and AMP", I'd like to just answer the "WHY do I need an AMP" and why I feel frustrated by its absence.
From the beginning, Command has been a very realistic game, and since its initial release, many features were added, including many details in order to simulate the specifics of modern combat systems. It has grown into an even more impressive game, allowing to reproduce very complex engagements.
Now in such engagements, the difference between success and a complete failure often lies in the details. To get the best military effect out of your modern assets, you usually need a good synchonization between all your assets, and careful planning. In the air part of Command, I feel frustated because I sometimes have a plan in my head, and basically feels that it is really difficult to realize not because it is not doable, but because I am limited by the tools at my disposal.
And moreover, I have the feeling that the process itself is not realistic. In real operations, you start by carefully preparing your strike (defining flight plans, synchonizing various assets and so on). And when in real time, you make adjustments to cope with the unexpected (which WILL happen almost everytime !). My biggest gripe with the air part of Command is that you have to make adjustments even before the unexpected happens because you cannot even pre plan the waypoints. So when a complex strike is starting, you have to catch every flight (sometimes difficult to distinguish when they depart in sequence), and manually plot each flight as they are already airborne. This is REALLY A LOT of micro management and feels discouraging to start all over and try a new strategy.
For me an advanced strike planner woud be an awesome addition, and would reveal the full potential of this game. If it is optional to use it or not depending on the mission, I don't see how it would render things more complex for begiiners. If done properly, it has the potential to really alleviate the real time workload in complex scenarii.

Now I do agree with lots of things that have been said above. Especially with the fact that I feel it is clearly a better idea to have "ideal AMP" target in mind, but start with a version 1.0 that would only have the most essential features (for me: ability to prepare a flight plan with levels and speeds, synchronize elements of a package and if possible tanker support) in order to see it come to fruition.

I really hope the dev team will decide it is worth their efforts.

Once again, thanks a lot to the dev team for at least allowing such an interesting discussion and taking the time to listen to our feedback. Whatever your decision, given the workload we are talking about, it will be perfectly respectable.

Charles

(in reply to BDukes)
Post #: 152
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/14/2018 5:47:15 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 3981
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
Another significant consideration is the amount of support the devs will have to invest in supporting an advanced planner. There are people here who don't know what a folder is, can't read a message properly, and don't know what a waypoint is...just as a start. Can you imagine those people buying and using something as complex as a TOT planner? Because they will try to use and will pummel the forum with questions before even reading a manual.

(in reply to tango4)
Post #: 153
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/14/2018 8:08:54 PM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5690
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline
Thanks for your feedback guys, much appreciated

Work is underway.

It seems most people would expect pre-takeoff waypoint editing and ToT for AMP v1.0 so guess we'll try to go for that.

Targeteering, weaponeering, detailed tanker planning, and various other features will have to come in version 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, etc.

Absolutely no promise on release date. It will probably take some time to get things up and running well enough to be releasable, and we'll likely run into all sort of unforeseen challenges that will delay the project. So please have some patience.

< Message edited by emsoy -- 2/14/2018 8:29:24 PM >


_____________________________



Developer "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 154
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/14/2018 8:12:07 PM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5690
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline
Hmmm one of you posted a screenshot of a really nice Excel sheet and then removed it?

It had a lot of neat calculations that the AMP should do automatically.

_____________________________



Developer "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to ComDev)
Post #: 155
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/14/2018 8:36:28 PM   
Lionheart

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 10/12/2013
From: Surrey, UK
Status: offline
Is this the Excel Strike Planner devised by skorpio667?

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4013929&mpage=1&key=Excel%2CStrike%2CPlanner�

(in reply to ComDev)
Post #: 156
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/15/2018 3:57:39 AM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5690
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lionheart

Is this the Excel Strike Planner devised by skorpio667?

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4013929&mpage=1&key=Excel%2CStrike%2CPlanner�


Thanks, the Excel Strike Planner is great but this other one looked quite differently

_____________________________



Developer "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to Lionheart)
Post #: 157
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/15/2018 11:55:35 AM   
c3k

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 4/25/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tango4

Just as a sidenote here, instead of answering the question "what do I need in and AMP", I'd like to just answer the "WHY do I need an AMP" and why I feel frustrated by its absence.
From the beginning, Command has been a very realistic game, and since its initial release, many features were added, including many details in order to simulate the specifics of modern combat systems. It has grown into an even more impressive game, allowing to reproduce very complex engagements.
Now in such engagements, the difference between success and a complete failure often lies in the details. To get the best military effect out of your modern assets, you usually need a good synchonization between all your assets, and careful planning. In the air part of Command, I feel frustated because I sometimes have a plan in my head, and basically feels that it is really difficult to realize not because it is not doable, but because I am limited by the tools at my disposal.
And moreover, I have the feeling that the process itself is not realistic. In real operations, you start by carefully preparing your strike (defining flight plans, synchonizing various assets and so on). And when in real time, you make adjustments to cope with the unexpected (which WILL happen almost everytime !). My biggest gripe with the air part of Command is that you have to make adjustments even before the unexpected happens because you cannot even pre plan the waypoints. So when a complex strike is starting, you have to catch every flight (sometimes difficult to distinguish when they depart in sequence), and manually plot each flight as they are already airborne. This is REALLY A LOT of micro management and feels discouraging to start all over and try a new strategy.
For me an advanced strike planner woud be an awesome addition, and would reveal the full potential of this game. If it is optional to use it or not depending on the mission, I don't see how it would render things more complex for begiiners. If done properly, it has the potential to really alleviate the real time workload in complex scenarii.

Now I do agree with lots of things that have been said above. Especially with the fact that I feel it is clearly a better idea to have "ideal AMP" target in mind, but start with a version 1.0 that would only have the most essential features (for me: ability to prepare a flight plan with levels and speeds, synchronize elements of a package and if possible tanker support) in order to see it come to fruition.

I really hope the dev team will decide it is worth their efforts.

Once again, thanks a lot to the dev team for at least allowing such an interesting discussion and taking the time to listen to our feedback. Whatever your decision, given the workload we are talking about, it will be perfectly respectable.

Charles


Very well said.

Let me Pre-Plan the strike before launching the package. The ability to create ingress/egress routes for multiple flights; to have timing triangles built in; to have designated launch points with Time to Impact information; to have pop-up windows which will help guide me as to the best altitude and airspeed to launch the weapon against THAT target; to see how much fuel is required at each point to follow the route and RTB; to see if that is a shortfall in internal/external fuel; these are the details which allow for competent use of modern air assets and give a chance of success.

The crux is the ability to pause the game and pre-plane a coordinated strike.

(in reply to tango4)
Post #: 158
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/15/2018 12:08:25 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 3981
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
I know this sounds crazy, but I play in the editor and if I have a big and complicated strike I am planning, I do my plan at a base level, save it, and then run it. From there I rinse and repeat, until I get it where I want. If its a large complicated scenario and mission, I'll end up with up to 10 variations saved.

It helps immensely with the timing and refueling needs to start to see where the plan falls apart. I consider this no different than having a simulated version of the mission I can use for adjustments. It becomes a scenario within the scenario. Looking at the features being requested for the planner, I don't think this is any more or less time and complication.

(in reply to c3k)
Post #: 159
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 3/5/2018 12:21:29 PM   
guanotwozero

 

Posts: 255
Joined: 12/27/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy

YES!

Very nice, this is exactly what an Advanced Mission Planner should do.

However it should probably be noted that setting up all the waypoints, timings, EMCON, etc, would require a bit of work for the player

If AMP v1.0 has this exact functionality, nothing more and nothing less, all would be good?




Something that may make life easier is the use of templates, defining statuses and/or actions at a waypoint. A template could define altitude, speed, EMCON, etc. These could be used to easily set the status of multiple flights arriving at a waypoint, instead of having to manage each one separately. For example, 3 flights could be set to TemplateX at WP5, while a 4th flight may have TemplateY at WP5.

A template could also include "time at", to help with coordination and sequencing, though there'd clearly need to be clever code under the hood to realistically make use of that.

An excel-like editor could create a template, and it could be cloned to create an (initially) identical one. Such a cloned template would allow small variations to be edited in, e.g. TemplateX and TemplateY differ only by altitude or TimeAt.

Another use of cloning would be to define subsequent waypoint states, e.g. TemplateA at WP6, and a modified TemplateB at WP7.

As well as defining states at a WP, it could also include actions such as commencing a sub-mission. For example, a tanker may commence serving local receivers, or a fighter may commence a BARCAP. A mud mover may commence its strike sub-mission. Clearly these sub-missions would need to created beforehand (include a create button in the AMP?) - the AMP & templates would coordinate their use.

In the AMP, any particular flight could have a sequence of "template instances", e.g. launch -> WP1:TemplateW -> WP2:TemplateX(refuel) -> WP3:TemplateY(Strike) -> WP2:TemplateZ -> Land.

Other flights could be coordinated to use some of the same waypoints for different purposes, such a a tanker having WP2:TemplateA(serve fuel), with TemplateX and TemplateA having the same TimeAt.

Such sub-missions would need an "exit mission" ability so as to return to the coordinating sequence; they'd otherwise be pretty similar to the existing missions.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by guanotwozero -- 3/5/2018 12:33:13 PM >

(in reply to ComDev)
Post #: 160
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 3/6/2018 4:05:44 PM   
Galahad78

 

Posts: 340
Joined: 9/28/2009
Status: offline
I have been following the idea exchange but haven't provided anything as all the good ideas I could have haven been already presented.

However, this quote has made me think:

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
My main concern is a full blowm military-grade planner will take a long time to code up and deliver. I would rather have something simpler, easier to use, and delivered faster.


I find quite intriguing that the professional customers of CMANO haven't requested an Advanced Strike Planner for themselves yet. Do they do all the micromanagement by themselves? I find that interesting/inevitable in some instances/levels of command, but not on others.

Therefore, my suggestion (if you will ): go for a full blown military-grade planner, that can be sold to the pro customers. That way you can sell us (perhaps) a bit nerfed down version while keeping development costs and times contained. And, hopefully, we could get it with a DLC price (and not Premium price hehe )

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 161
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 3/6/2018 5:49:13 PM   
Grazyn

 

Posts: 108
Joined: 10/24/2016
Status: offline
If development is projected to take 7+ years as the devs said, they may as well do nothing at all. And I'd rather have something than nothing

(in reply to Galahad78)
Post #: 162
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 3/18/2018 9:18:47 PM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5690
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: c3k
Very well said.

Let me Pre-Plan the strike before launching the package. The ability to create ingress/egress routes for multiple flights; to have timing triangles built in; to have designated launch points with Time to Impact information; to have pop-up windows which will help guide me as to the best altitude and airspeed to launch the weapon against THAT target; to see how much fuel is required at each point to follow the route and RTB; to see if that is a shortfall in internal/external fuel; these are the details which allow for competent use of modern air assets and give a chance of success.

The crux is the ability to pause the game and pre-plane a coordinated strike.



Thanks :)

For version 1.0 of the AMP I'm thinking this:

OK: Let me Pre-Plan the strike before launching the package.
OK: The ability to create ingress/egress routes for multiple flights;
OK: to have designated launch points with Time to Impact information;
OK: to see how much fuel is required at each point to follow the route and RTB;
OK: to see if that is a shortfall in internal/external fuel;

Sounds too complex for v1.0, what would it look like in-game: to have pop-up windows which will help guide me as to the best altitude and airspeed to launch the weapon against THAT target;

What do you mean by "To have timing triangles built in;"?


_____________________________



Developer "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to c3k)
Post #: 163
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 3/18/2018 9:23:26 PM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5690
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: guanotwozero


Something that may make life easier is the use of templates, defining statuses and/or actions at a waypoint. A template could define altitude, speed, EMCON, etc. These could be used to easily set the status of multiple flights arriving at a waypoint, instead of having to manage each one separately. For example, 3 flights could be set to TemplateX at WP5, while a 4th flight may have TemplateY at WP5.

A template could also include "time at", to help with coordination and sequencing, though there'd clearly need to be clever code under the hood to realistically make use of that.

An excel-like editor could create a template, and it could be cloned to create an (initially) identical one. Such a cloned template would allow small variations to be edited in, e.g. TemplateX and TemplateY differ only by altitude or TimeAt.

Another use of cloning would be to define subsequent waypoint states, e.g. TemplateA at WP6, and a modified TemplateB at WP7.

As well as defining states at a WP, it could also include actions such as commencing a sub-mission. For example, a tanker may commence serving local receivers, or a fighter may commence a BARCAP. A mud mover may commence its strike sub-mission. Clearly these sub-missions would need to created beforehand (include a create button in the AMP?) - the AMP & templates would coordinate their use.

In the AMP, any particular flight could have a sequence of "template instances", e.g. launch -> WP1:TemplateW -> WP2:TemplateX(refuel) -> WP3:TemplateY(Strike) -> WP2:TemplateZ -> Land.

Other flights could be coordinated to use some of the same waypoints for different purposes, such a a tanker having WP2:TemplateA(serve fuel), with TemplateX and TemplateA having the same TimeAt.

Such sub-missions would need an "exit mission" ability so as to return to the coordinating sequence; they'd otherwise be pretty similar to the existing missions.






Hmmm this is actually not a bad idea. But doubt we get time to add it for v1.0.

Another thing that could be useful (although I don't know how technically feasible it is, and it certainly will not be for v1.0) would be the ability to export and import flight plans. Perhaps in a Excel-readable format? That way, your large strikes could be exported, edited in excel, and imported into the same scenario or even a different scenario.


_____________________________



Developer "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to guanotwozero)
Post #: 164
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 3/18/2018 9:27:07 PM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5690
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grazyn

If development is projected to take 7+ years as the devs said, they may as well do nothing at all. And I'd rather have something than nothing


Which is why we need to split the project into manageable pieces. First up is basic flight planning in AMP v1.0. Then add targeteering, weaponeering, tanker stuff, etc, etc, in v2.0, v3.0, v4.0.

_____________________________



Developer "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to Grazyn)
Post #: 165
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 3/23/2018 4:48:49 AM   
guanotwozero

 

Posts: 255
Joined: 12/27/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy
Which is why we need to split the project into manageable pieces. First up is basic flight planning in AMP v1.0. Then add targeteering, weaponeering, tanker stuff, etc, etc, in v2.0, v3.0, v4.0.


A few ideas that might help:


1) Missions could be divided into mission segments, each consisting of a number of waypoints & legs. If the time at the last waypoint is known, then the aircraft speed can be used to calculate times at all earlier waypoints.

Say a flight is to take off off at A, then fly to waypoints B, C and D. It is required to be at D at a given time. The times at all earlier waypoints can be established by back-propagation, hence takeoff time is established. If D is the target, ToT is simply the time at D.


2) Mission segments could be chained, so that a new segment can commence from an earlier segment. Back-propagation of times works backwards along the chain.

Example 1:
Flight F1 flies segment ABCD, arriving at D at a given time. Here D is not the target, just a useful action point e.g. a split. Flight F1 splits into F2 & F3. F2 now flies chained segment DEFG, while F3 flies segment DXYG. G is the target. As ToT (time at G) is defined, then the required times at earlier waypoints can be established by back-propagation, including the split and takeoff times.

The bizlogic handling ABCD is the same as that handling DEFG, so adding segments can simplify multi-path missions with desired ToTs and other action points.

Example 2:
Similarly a cruise missile could be launched at D, following its own path DEFG as a chained segment. This would treat WToT the same way as as aircraft arriving at a timed waypoint. Possibly other weapons could be handled in a related way, with WToT propagating back all the way to takeoff.


3) This is all complicated by the fact that the target and carrier may be moving. Essentially the first and last legs are variable. The good news is that these will have exact solutions (assuming predictable movement), though as my linear algebra is very rusty, I'll not provide any here just now ;)





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by guanotwozero -- 3/23/2018 5:04:40 AM >

(in reply to ComDev)
Post #: 166
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 4/10/2018 6:49:48 PM   
Petrosa

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 3/26/2011
Status: offline
Hi there,

Long time lurker here. Firstly thanks to the devs for this great simulation. I have spent countless hours playing the game and trying to design scenarios (that end up too complicated and binned). I am far from expert in this game or military affairs in general but I think the ASP would greatly unlock the potential of this game and make it much more easier for casual (by that I mean people who do not want to spend 3 hours in front of an excel sheet before playing a scenario) to make the most out of the amazing possibilities that this game offers.

Firstly I think that the biggest benefit of the ASP would be to the scenario designer. Just imagine how more enjoyable and challenging to play would be scenarios that the "computer" side launches coordinated attacks that follow land features. As far as I am aware (correct me if I am wrong) specific waypoints cannot be assigned to a mission. Additionally, I agree with others that a military grade ASP that will take 7 years to develop would be a drag on resources and actually will be used in vey few occasions.

I believe that most of the features of an ASP that would be able to do what the vast majority of scenario designers and players want are already there!

I think the easiest way to explain my point is by a simple scenario. Lets say I want to attack and shut down a red airbase. I know the AB is defended by an S300 and I suspect that there are also 1-2 short range SAMs and a couple of AAA guns. I have at my disposal few cruise missiles, a flight with ARMs, a flight with laser-guided bombs, a flight with cluster bombs and a flight with anti-runaway ammunition. I want to shoot the tomahawks at the base and have my ARM flight in range to shoot at any SAMs that lights up when the cruise missiles enter the S300 maximum range. Simultaneously I want my flights with short-range ammo to enter the S300 engagement range and dash towards the AB whilst the SAMs are occupied with the cruise missiles and ARMs. Additionally, there are mountains that can cover part of the approach of my planes whilst within the S300 range.

For each of these flights I need to create separate missions. As it stands now the mission planer generates a straight route following the mission profile. But how about if in the ASP (and actually this could be useful for any mission) we can design each flights route adding waypoints similarly to what we do with cruise missiles. These waypoints need to be editable for speed, altitude and EMCON, as we currently can do (but now prior to launch) and also an extra option WAIT FOR (h:min:sec) needs to be added. An estimated time of arrival to each WP could be added but it is not entirely necessary as you will see below. I think this so far does not require a lot of extra coding and can be incorporated in the current mission planner (correct me if I am wrong).

So what happens if the player chooses the Advanced Strike Planner option. Then a new window with the game in simulation mode starts. In that new window all the ground and naval assets (subs, SAGs, radars, SAMs, airbases) and landed planes with their current loadout of the player are added. Also all the known ground assets of the enemy are added. E.g the AB, the S300 I have identified, any radars I am aware of etc. Also this needs to have some editor functions so enemy units can be added. Eg I suspect a TOR-M1 and a couple of AAA guns are also present at the AB but I have not positively identified them. Using the editor function I can add them. Then I can select to add (copy-paste?) relevant missions for the strike I am planning from the main game. E.g. The strike mission of the sub with my cruise missiles, the SEAD patrol, the approach of the flight with the cluster bombs and anti-runaway ammo etc. Then I unpause" the game and see what happens. Opps my cruise missiles arrive 5 mins early? no problem I delay the sub's strike mission by 4-5min. These changes modify the relevant missions in the "live" version of command. Are my planes loaded with durandals arriving too early, no problem I ask them to hold for 2 extra minutes in the waypoint 100Km off the target.

In this way by playing the "simulation" version of the game I can also see if for the profile and the route I have chosen some/all of my planes reach BINGO fuel so I need to add tankers on the way in, or on the way out, or if unavailable this profile/route is not possible. I hope you get what I am trying to explain.

The enemy SAMs/AAAs can also shoot at you as in the "real" game so you can get an idea how feasible is your approach. I do not think that enemy fighters need to be included at this stage - this is simplified strike planner making sure that all the packages arrive at the correct time and that you have enough fuel.

I think in this way by using mostly existing features of the game 90% of what is needed in most situations requiring coordination is covered. My only reservation with this idea is how easy in terms of programming and/or computer resources is to exchange information between the "live" and the "simulation" instances of the game.

Please let me know what you guys think

Regards
P.


(in reply to guanotwozero)
Post #: 167
Page:   <<   < prev  2 3 4 5 [6]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Air / Naval Operations >> RE: Advanced Strike Planner Page: <<   < prev  2 3 4 5 [6]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.117