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RE: Advanced Strike Planner

 
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RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/13/2018 3:09:37 PM   
BDukes

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stilesw

emsoy & thewood1,

I absolutely believe this! I worked with the daily ATO process at Red/Green Flag (Nellis AFB) 1988-1997. The operations plans were created with a roomful of 12+ experienced air strike planners and an IBM mainframe cruncher (dinosaur now - today's PCs would have been great).

Developing the code for CMANO to do the same thing that involves fuel, AEW, OECM, loadouts, strike flight sizes, intelligence reports, hostile defensive ground units, etc, etc, etc would be far from a trivial or even moderate effort. And this was in a "peaceful" training environment. Doing it in the field during Desert Storm boggles the mind.

The beta AMP that has been created to date would have that whole staff green with envy (and heading for the O'Club).

Kudos for what I've seen to date.

-Wayne




I second this. They have done great work and have answered difficult questions when asked.

(in reply to stilesw)
Post #: 151
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/14/2018 2:28:15 PM   
tango4

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/19/2014
Status: offline
Just as a sidenote here, instead of answering the question "what do I need in and AMP", I'd like to just answer the "WHY do I need an AMP" and why I feel frustrated by its absence.
From the beginning, Command has been a very realistic game, and since its initial release, many features were added, including many details in order to simulate the specifics of modern combat systems. It has grown into an even more impressive game, allowing to reproduce very complex engagements.
Now in such engagements, the difference between success and a complete failure often lies in the details. To get the best military effect out of your modern assets, you usually need a good synchonization between all your assets, and careful planning. In the air part of Command, I feel frustated because I sometimes have a plan in my head, and basically feels that it is really difficult to realize not because it is not doable, but because I am limited by the tools at my disposal.
And moreover, I have the feeling that the process itself is not realistic. In real operations, you start by carefully preparing your strike (defining flight plans, synchonizing various assets and so on). And when in real time, you make adjustments to cope with the unexpected (which WILL happen almost everytime !). My biggest gripe with the air part of Command is that you have to make adjustments even before the unexpected happens because you cannot even pre plan the waypoints. So when a complex strike is starting, you have to catch every flight (sometimes difficult to distinguish when they depart in sequence), and manually plot each flight as they are already airborne. This is REALLY A LOT of micro management and feels discouraging to start all over and try a new strategy.
For me an advanced strike planner woud be an awesome addition, and would reveal the full potential of this game. If it is optional to use it or not depending on the mission, I don't see how it would render things more complex for begiiners. If done properly, it has the potential to really alleviate the real time workload in complex scenarii.

Now I do agree with lots of things that have been said above. Especially with the fact that I feel it is clearly a better idea to have "ideal AMP" target in mind, but start with a version 1.0 that would only have the most essential features (for me: ability to prepare a flight plan with levels and speeds, synchronize elements of a package and if possible tanker support) in order to see it come to fruition.

I really hope the dev team will decide it is worth their efforts.

Once again, thanks a lot to the dev team for at least allowing such an interesting discussion and taking the time to listen to our feedback. Whatever your decision, given the workload we are talking about, it will be perfectly respectable.

Charles

(in reply to BDukes)
Post #: 152
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/14/2018 5:47:15 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 3648
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: online
Another significant consideration is the amount of support the devs will have to invest in supporting an advanced planner. There are people here who don't know what a folder is, can't read a message properly, and don't know what a waypoint is...just as a start. Can you imagine those people buying and using something as complex as a TOT planner? Because they will try to use and will pummel the forum with questions before even reading a manual.

(in reply to tango4)
Post #: 153
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/14/2018 8:08:54 PM   
emsoy


Posts: 5530
Joined: 5/12/2006
From: A cold and snowy place far to the north!
Status: offline
Thanks for your feedback guys, much appreciated

Work is underway.

It seems most people would expect pre-takeoff waypoint editing and ToT for AMP v1.0 so guess we'll try to go for that.

Targeteering, weaponeering, detailed tanker planning, and various other features will have to come in version 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, etc.

Absolutely no promise on release date. It will probably take some time to get things up and running well enough to be releasable, and we'll likely run into all sort of unforeseen challenges that will delay the project. So please have some patience.

< Message edited by emsoy -- 2/14/2018 8:29:24 PM >


_____________________________



Database guru and scenario designer in the "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 154
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/14/2018 8:12:07 PM   
emsoy


Posts: 5530
Joined: 5/12/2006
From: A cold and snowy place far to the north!
Status: offline
Hmmm one of you posted a screenshot of a really nice Excel sheet and then removed it?

It had a lot of neat calculations that the AMP should do automatically.

_____________________________



Database guru and scenario designer in the "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to emsoy)
Post #: 155
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/14/2018 8:36:28 PM   
Lionheart

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 10/12/2013
From: Surrey, UK
Status: offline
Is this the Excel Strike Planner devised by skorpio667?

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4013929&mpage=1&key=Excel%2CStrike%2CPlanner�

(in reply to emsoy)
Post #: 156
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/15/2018 3:57:39 AM   
emsoy


Posts: 5530
Joined: 5/12/2006
From: A cold and snowy place far to the north!
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lionheart

Is this the Excel Strike Planner devised by skorpio667?

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4013929&mpage=1&key=Excel%2CStrike%2CPlanner�


Thanks, the Excel Strike Planner is great but this other one looked quite differently

_____________________________



Database guru and scenario designer in the "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to Lionheart)
Post #: 157
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/15/2018 11:55:35 AM   
c3k

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 4/25/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tango4

Just as a sidenote here, instead of answering the question "what do I need in and AMP", I'd like to just answer the "WHY do I need an AMP" and why I feel frustrated by its absence.
From the beginning, Command has been a very realistic game, and since its initial release, many features were added, including many details in order to simulate the specifics of modern combat systems. It has grown into an even more impressive game, allowing to reproduce very complex engagements.
Now in such engagements, the difference between success and a complete failure often lies in the details. To get the best military effect out of your modern assets, you usually need a good synchonization between all your assets, and careful planning. In the air part of Command, I feel frustated because I sometimes have a plan in my head, and basically feels that it is really difficult to realize not because it is not doable, but because I am limited by the tools at my disposal.
And moreover, I have the feeling that the process itself is not realistic. In real operations, you start by carefully preparing your strike (defining flight plans, synchonizing various assets and so on). And when in real time, you make adjustments to cope with the unexpected (which WILL happen almost everytime !). My biggest gripe with the air part of Command is that you have to make adjustments even before the unexpected happens because you cannot even pre plan the waypoints. So when a complex strike is starting, you have to catch every flight (sometimes difficult to distinguish when they depart in sequence), and manually plot each flight as they are already airborne. This is REALLY A LOT of micro management and feels discouraging to start all over and try a new strategy.
For me an advanced strike planner woud be an awesome addition, and would reveal the full potential of this game. If it is optional to use it or not depending on the mission, I don't see how it would render things more complex for begiiners. If done properly, it has the potential to really alleviate the real time workload in complex scenarii.

Now I do agree with lots of things that have been said above. Especially with the fact that I feel it is clearly a better idea to have "ideal AMP" target in mind, but start with a version 1.0 that would only have the most essential features (for me: ability to prepare a flight plan with levels and speeds, synchronize elements of a package and if possible tanker support) in order to see it come to fruition.

I really hope the dev team will decide it is worth their efforts.

Once again, thanks a lot to the dev team for at least allowing such an interesting discussion and taking the time to listen to our feedback. Whatever your decision, given the workload we are talking about, it will be perfectly respectable.

Charles


Very well said.

Let me Pre-Plan the strike before launching the package. The ability to create ingress/egress routes for multiple flights; to have timing triangles built in; to have designated launch points with Time to Impact information; to have pop-up windows which will help guide me as to the best altitude and airspeed to launch the weapon against THAT target; to see how much fuel is required at each point to follow the route and RTB; to see if that is a shortfall in internal/external fuel; these are the details which allow for competent use of modern air assets and give a chance of success.

The crux is the ability to pause the game and pre-plane a coordinated strike.

(in reply to tango4)
Post #: 158
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/15/2018 12:08:25 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 3648
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: online
I know this sounds crazy, but I play in the editor and if I have a big and complicated strike I am planning, I do my plan at a base level, save it, and then run it. From there I rinse and repeat, until I get it where I want. If its a large complicated scenario and mission, I'll end up with up to 10 variations saved.

It helps immensely with the timing and refueling needs to start to see where the plan falls apart. I consider this no different than having a simulated version of the mission I can use for adjustments. It becomes a scenario within the scenario. Looking at the features being requested for the planner, I don't think this is any more or less time and complication.

(in reply to c3k)
Post #: 159
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