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Rebuilding destroyed USSR units - 1/31/2018 10:49:34 PM   
thedoctorking


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Are units destroyed in November 1941 rebuilt automatically? Or only up until the end of October? The manual says "prior to November" that suggests the latter, but the German offensive goes on until the first turn of December.
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RE: Rebuilding destroyed USSR units - 2/1/2018 1:00:51 AM   
56ajax


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Nearly all Soviet units are rebuilt automatically, from brigade and upwards. (I think Mountain and naval are gone forever). The question is at what cost? Up to a certain point they are free and then after that they will consume any leftover Admin points. So after October make sure you have used up all your points , until those dirty rotten axis buggers stop destroying your army.

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RE: Rebuilding destroyed USSR units - 2/1/2018 12:07:58 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

Are units destroyed in November 1941 rebuilt automatically? Or only up until the end of October? The manual says "prior to November" that suggests the latter, but the German offensive goes on until the first turn of December.


The 2x3 game .. the Soviets have been held under 4M Manpower with over 200,000 casualties average per turn.(Now it is turn 11). Many more units were destroyed, but the algorithm calculates how close isolated units are to friendlies, and adds devices/squads into the pool as they pass die rolls.
It is one reason I routed units out of the pocket in Leningrad as I calculated that at least 1/2 will be returned to the pool anyway. (It might have been a mistake). The units pocketed in VL have much less chance of returning to the pool as they are vey far from friendly units.

So I believe the Soviets are challenged right now for Manpower in the 2x3 game, which might be different than other games and rates of Soviet unit replenishment

That said .. I am a German fanboy so, I invite comment from those that are experienced with Soviets and can provide better advice given the above constraints..

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RE: Rebuilding destroyed USSR units - 2/1/2018 1:00:20 PM   
Telemecus


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Also in 2by3+ team game there will be a shortage of units (formations) for their OOB and not just manpower to fill them.

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RE: Rebuilding destroyed USSR units - 2/1/2018 5:59:20 PM   
thedoctorking


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The manual says "units destroyed before November" are rebuilt automatically as empty cadres. The question is, does this mean that destroyed units stop being rebuilt after the first of November? Or after the first of December? Or never?

Looking at my list of units coming in after a bunch of my guys were destroyed in one game in mid-November, I'm not seeing some of the formation numbers. So maybe it is after the first of November. A good reason to leave guys alive inside pockets you create late in the summer 1941 offensive as the Germans, to kill them in the snow turns. Seems a bit gamey, though.

I'd argue for the rebuilding to be permanent, as it is for the Axis.

I know that some of the elements in shattered/surrendered units are returned to the force pool as elements. I'm concerned about the formations. Building new USSR formations takes a ton of AP.

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RE: Rebuilding destroyed USSR units - 2/1/2018 6:06:34 PM   
Telemecus


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There can be delays on the return - it is not necessarily immediate?

Some players do deliberately not kill off pockets. And one Soviet player faced with this made suicide attacks by his pocketed units to get them killed off! Clearly at the point you are playing the game mechanics rather than the war simulation.

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RE: Rebuilding destroyed USSR units - 2/1/2018 6:12:13 PM   
thedoctorking


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Also, as the Germans, the troops you use sealing off those pockets can't be up front destroying the USSR units that are actually dangerous. I actually did leave a pocket alive as the Germans in one game until November so that the guys would not return (I thought).

It is your belief, Telemecus, that the rebuilding of USSR units continues to happen throughout the game?

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RE: Rebuilding destroyed USSR units - 2/1/2018 6:18:33 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking
It is your belief, Telemecus, that the rebuilding of USSR units continues to happen throughout the game?


I believe so - but also should say my experience of Soviets is by playing against them. So do watch out for a Soviet side player correcting me. It may (or may not) also tell you when they return in the arrivals/withdrawals screen? You are right the cost is large. The one trick is to leave your admin points close to zero at the end of the turn. I believe it charges for returning units before you get your next turns admin points - and it will not push your points score below zero. If you can do that you should just be paying for new formations rather than reforming old ones.

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RE: Rebuilding destroyed USSR units - 2/1/2018 6:34:03 PM   
lastkozak


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I thought returning units were dependent upon how many resources/man power you have in excess, like how planes form new squadrons, when you have an excess of planes in the pool a new squadron appears.

I have wondered about that being manipulated, by switching the TOE of all your units, to 95% or even 80%, and turning refit off after they reach that level, so that there was an excess in the pool. Of course you would still have the same number of manpower points on the board, but would have more units to cover more territory.



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RE: Rebuilding destroyed USSR units - 2/1/2018 6:39:10 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lastkozak
I thought returning units were dependent upon how many resources/man power you have in excess, like how planes form new squadrons, when you have an excess of planes in the pool a new squadron appears.


I could be corrected but I understand there is no auto ground unit creation for Soviets (unlike the auto air creation that has been at least described in the manual). So apart from the return of old units, if you want more formations you have to manually create them and pay for them. You still could choke ToEs to have more units with less manpower in each of them though.

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RE: Rebuilding destroyed USSR units - 2/1/2018 6:54:58 PM   
lastkozak


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

I could be corrected but I understand there is no auto ground unit creation for Soviets (unlike the auto air creation that has been at least described in the manual). So apart from the return of old units, if you want more formations you have to manually create them and pay for them. You still could choke ToEs to have more units with less manpower in each of them though.


Well, if that is the case, how does one deal with the reality, of having tonns of points for personnel, but a low number of units on the board, because too many have died off? Needing to pay AP, which are limited per turn, restricts the reality, that the USSR, would just build more units; I doubt they decided, "oopsie comradskiy, we ran out of numbers and alphabet letters, to name new units", "sorry comrade Stalin", our army can get no bigger, because we cannot name them, we will just have to wait for more of our soldiers to die off!

That is odd, but I presume the designers figured that if you lost that many units, you probably have lost the game. I presume disbanded units return though?




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and our former Mayor was smoking crack!

(in reply to Telemecus)
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RE: Rebuilding destroyed USSR units - 2/1/2018 7:00:03 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lastkozak

Well, if that is the case, how does one deal with the reality, of having tonns of points for personnel, but a low number of units on the board, because too many have died off? Needing to pay AP, which are limited per turn, restricts the reality, that the USSR, would just build more units; I doubt they decided, "oopsie comradskiy, we ran out of numbers and alphabet letters, to name new units", "sorry comrade Stalin", our army can get no bigger, because we cannot name them, we will just have to wait for more of our soldiers to die off!

That is odd, but I presume the designers figured that if you lost that many units, you probably have lost the game. I presume disbanded units return though?


I think you may not be understanding what admin points represents. It is not a measure of manpower or desire but administrative capability. And creating a big army does take a lot of administration. Mobilisation of millions is a lot more than choosing alphabet numbers! So on the admin side you really do have to budget your points for that.

However it is very unusual for a Soviet side to have a lack of units in 1941. In 95% of games they do have the units, especially with so many coming back for free and empty in 1941, but they do not have the manpower or training.


< Message edited by Telemecus -- 2/1/2018 7:08:36 PM >

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RE: Rebuilding destroyed USSR units - 2/1/2018 7:50:56 PM   
thedoctorking


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My sense of things up to now is that the Soviet player usually has the manpower and resources to fill those returning units. Maybe if there were really a huge number of losses, like in the multi-player game we are playing, it might be an issue. But I routinely go and set the TOE maximum of all USSR units to 100% at the beginning of each turn (the rebuilt units come in with TOE max of 20). Then set all those guys on refit and while they are railing up to the front they build up to 70 percent or so, enough to be barely combat-effective. I see reported CV values of 4 or 5 for infantry divisions by the time they get to the front and are assigned to armies.

If the destroyed units are rebuilt automatically (even if they use up accumulated stocks of AP, which for me are almost always 0), this is a big deal for the USSR. Eliminates gamey strategies like letting guys in pockets live, though.


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RE: Rebuilding destroyed USSR units - 2/2/2018 1:09:29 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

The manual says "units destroyed before November" are rebuilt automatically as empty cadres. The question is, does this mean that destroyed units stop being rebuilt after the first of November? Or after the first of December? Or never?

Looking at my list of units coming in after a bunch of my guys were destroyed in one game in mid-November, I'm not seeing some of the formation numbers. So maybe it is after the first of November. A good reason to leave guys alive inside pockets you create late in the summer 1941 offensive as the Germans, to kill them in the snow turns. Seems a bit gamey, though.

I'd argue for the rebuilding to be permanent, as it is for the Axis.

I know that some of the elements in shattered/surrendered units are returned to the force pool as elements. I'm concerned about the formations. Building new USSR formations takes a ton of AP.


Rebuilding is permanent.
Every Soviet unit, from brigade and above, is automatically rebuilt. They come back in 2,3 or however many weeks as per the algorithm, as close to empty shells. I think this also applies to eg Tank Corps, Guards Inf Corps etc. Exceptions are Mountain Divs and Naval Brigades which are lost for ever and can't be manually rebuilt either. I think there is also an anomaly in that regiments that surrender (not destroyed) also come back automatically.

The thing about the Nov date is that after this date the system will consume any end of turn Admin points for auto creation.

For example, in October you have 5 Admin points left at the end of your turn and 10 units to auto recreate then the system will let you keep the 5 points and create the 10 units. In Nov it will take your 5 Admin points but still create the 10 units. It does not use your Admin points allocated at the start of the next turn. So you will still get your 50 or 60 points or whatever.

And here is a small extract out of my Turn 55 Event Log playing as the Soviets

63rd Cavalry Division is reorganizing (will return in 2 weeks)
22nd Rifle Brigade is reorganizing (will return in 2 weeks)
416th Rifle Division is reorganizing (will return in 4 weeks)
128th Tank Brigade is reorganizing (will return in 3 weeks)
417th Rifle Division is reorganizing (will return in 2 weeks)
119th Rifle Brigade is reorganizing (will return in 4 weeks)
231st Rifle Division is reorganizing (will return in 4 weeks)
136th Rifle Division is reorganizing (will return in 2 weeks)
46th Rifle Division is reorganizing (will return in 2 weeks)
43rd Guards Rifle Division is reorganizing (will return in 4 weeks)
135th Rifle Brigade is reorganizing (will return in 3 weeks)
123rd Tank Brigade is reorganizing (will return in 3 weeks)
25th Rifle Brigade is reorganizing (will return in 4 weeks)
1st Guards Cavalry Division is reorganizing (will return in 4 weeks)
2nd Rifle Division is reorganizing (will return in 3 weeks)


< Message edited by 56ajax -- 2/2/2018 1:12:42 AM >


_____________________________

When you escape from the lions den, it is unwise to go back for your hat.

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 14
RE: Rebuilding destroyed USSR units - 2/2/2018 3:05:02 AM   
thedoctorking


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I almost always use all my AP's each turn anyway as the Soviets. There's always more to do - building corps for sure, but also building extra support units, replacing generals, and one thing I do a lot of, moving units from army to army. I look over the commander's report each turn for units that have high fatigue or low morale levels and move them out of front-line armies and back to the rear area STAVKA armies for a while. Kind of like removing air units that have fatigue or morale problems. It is too damaging to their combat effectiveness and easily fixed with a short spell in the rear. And if you leave them in the front-line armies, that hinders the ability of those generals to support their troops (if the army is overloaded) or to provide reserves to the front (if too many units are away recuperating). So yes, I use up all my AP's, no problem.

(in reply to 56ajax)
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