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Aircraft Weapon Filters - 1/31/2018 3:21:39 PM   
scopejockey

 

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Hello.

I am unable to get filter 2 and 4 to work together.

My last test I have a B7A3 set up as (for testing not for game):

Torpedoe x1 filter 2
800kg AP x1 filter 4 (sometimes 20)
500kg GP x2 filter 1
60kg GP x6 filter 40
250kg GP x2 filter 64

When set to Naval Attack using Torpedo the aircraft uses both Torpedo (*N) and 800kg AP (*nP). When set to Naval Attack using Bombs only the 800kg AP (*nP) is used (which is correct). All other filters work correctly.

What am I doing wrong?
Post #: 1
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 1/31/2018 3:25:49 PM   
btd64


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If a torpedo bomber is set to Torp weapons, then it will use torps until they are gone. Then switch to bombs....GP

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Post #: 2
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 1/31/2018 3:34:05 PM   
scopejockey

 

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The problem is when set to use Torpedo it uses both torpedo and bomb (it uses both filters, 2 and 4).

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 3
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 1/31/2018 3:38:48 PM   
btd64


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Tell me about the B7A3. Is it a 2E? Does it have the hard points for a torpedo and bombs? Is it an aircraft that you modded?....GP

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Post #: 4
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 1/31/2018 3:51:48 PM   
scopejockey

 

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It's an upgrade of the B7A in the stock game. All weapons are on centerline.

All my aircraft that use filter 2 and 4 are having this problem (when set to use torpedo they use both filters. 1E, 2E, 4E, Torpdeo bomber, dive bomber (they launch torpedoes at 200' elevation), heavy bomber, fighter bomber (they launch torpedoes at 200' elevation, fighters iirc correctly will not drop to 200'...it's been awhile since testing this). Weapon load out weight under or over the Max Load (which from what I seen max load does not matter for the load out).

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RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 1/31/2018 4:41:05 PM   
Dili

 

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Did you check if you had torpedoes and supply available?
Do you have the filters in tab 11-20 correspond with tab 1-10?

Did you tried to invert the filters? 4 for torpedo 2 for bomb. (i know how you made is how is supposed to be but just in case...)

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Post #: 6
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 1/31/2018 5:05:54 PM   
scopejockey

 

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Yes. Level 10 AF. Max amount of supply (all 9s, forum will not allow me to post 6 9s). HQ has 100 torpedoes.

Yes. Adjusted aircraft a few days ago in case this was the issue. Latest test do not use 11-20.

Yes. No luck.


< Message edited by scopejockey -- 1/31/2018 5:06:42 PM >

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 7
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 1/31/2018 6:19:42 PM   
BillBrown


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Here is a link to a long discussion of aircraft load filters, maybe it will help. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3185771&mpage=1&key=filter

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Post #: 8
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 1/31/2018 6:42:53 PM   
scopejockey

 

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Thanks for the help. That's the post that got me started with filters. I've been rereading to see if I have missed something.

I've been using filters for Allied aircraft for awhile.

A couple of weeks ago I've been editing the Japanese aircraft. I played the first turn of my campaign and noticed my B5Ns and G4Ms were attacking with both torpedo (filter 2) and 800kg AP bomb (filter 4). Checked my edits, everything looked ok. Other filters work ok. This morning I made a small map scenario to test various setups. No luck.

Another weird thing is using filters for the Alt Device/Alt Use. My USN string is working (torpedo (ALT Use 2, ALT Device GP Bomb) GP Bomb (ALT Use 52, Alt Device Napalm) Napalm (Alt Use 8, Alt Device Torpedo), but my IJN string is not. Using device filters will not work if using aircraft filters. I'm not using these devices for the above problem.

< Message edited by scopejockey -- 1/31/2018 7:00:08 PM >

(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 9
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 1/31/2018 9:13:03 PM   
scopejockey

 

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I just copied Scenario 2 to a new slot. Added filter 2 to the existing torpedo for the B5N2 Kate and added a 800kg AP bomb with filter 4. It is using both weapons when "Use Torpedo".

I ran a second turn to engage Lexington and Enterprise. Torpedoes and bombs used by Kates.

< Message edited by scopejockey -- 1/31/2018 9:27:23 PM >

(in reply to scopejockey)
Post #: 10
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/1/2018 9:06:20 AM   
RichardAckermann

 

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This is a know issue. There seems to be no way to define custom torpedo replacement by filter.
It's on Michaelm's to do list, but with him and bugfix support gone...

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Post #: 11
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/1/2018 1:34:19 PM   
scopejockey

 

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Thanks.

I tried a search of the forum. I found one old, vague post, I believe the individual was talking about this issue.

I never have much luck with the forum search feature.

Thanks again. Back to the edit room.

(in reply to RichardAckermann)
Post #: 12
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/1/2018 2:29:57 PM   
Alfred

 

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The 800kg bomb must never be designated as the alternate for a torpedo.

Use of the 800kg bomb is hard coded and dependent on several variables.  The game was designed to make it a rare event when the 800kg bomb is used (just as the 2000lb bomb is also meant to be a rare event).  Any attempt by a player to make it regularly available will result in perverse outcomes.

The 04 filter alternate to the filter 02 torpedo should be a bomb of 250kg or less.

Alfred

(in reply to scopejockey)
Post #: 13
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/1/2018 3:39:19 PM   
el cid again

 

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I have successfully hard coded the 800 kg bomb for various aircraft and it works fine PROVIDED that you
define it as a bomber vice a torpedo bomber. I allow players to produce various variants of some
aircraft - including in some cases dedicated torpedo bombers, anti-submarine armed bombers, horizontal
bombers, etc. [As appropriate for the date and type] The discussion is correct in that there is a hard
code 800kg bomb alternate load for a torpedo in theory. It omits that the alternate load probability is
33% - but some thread alleges that it is and that seems to be true from testing. It also omits that you
seem to be able to CONTROL the alternate load by how you define it in the device list - if you want to.
Just be sure your alternate device goes into the very same slot as the 800 kg bomb does. Generally you
can define alternate devices as you please, with apparently the same 33% chance they will be used, but
in the case of torpedo weapons, you must use the exact slot stock does. Also FYI one CAN drop larger
torpedoes from aircraft. The G7A program contemplated dripping the 21 inch Long Lance (for submarines),
and indeed that works if you put it in your aircraft data.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The 800kg bomb must never be designated as the alternate for a torpedo.

Use of the 800kg bomb is hard coded and dependent on several variables.  The game was designed to make it a rare event when the 800kg bomb is used (just as the 2000lb bomb is also meant to be a rare event).  Any attempt by a player to make it regularly available will result in perverse outcomes.

The 04 filter alternate to the filter 02 torpedo should be a bomb of 250kg or less.

Alfred


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 14
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/1/2018 4:25:33 PM   
scopejockey

 

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"The 04 filter alternate to the filter 02 torpedo should be a bomb of 250kg or less."

I tried 250lb, 500lb, 250kg, 500kg size bombs (both GP and AP) as filter 4. When set to Use Torpedo the aircraft, no matter type of aircraft, uses both torpedo (filter 2) and bomb (filter 4).

I've run my mod to Jan 49 many times. There is no issue with using 800kg or 2000lb bombs. Many of my late war aircraft, of all types, are armed with the heavier bombs.

The only problem I've encountered is with filter 2 and 4 (which is a known issue that is on a list of things to fix....see a few posts above).

When using the filters I've never had the game use the default alternate device.

When doing a Naval Strike, if I have torpedo as filter 2 and no filter 4 it uses the torpedo when "Use Torpedo" is selected. When "Use Bomb" is selected no weapon appears, because filter 4 was not used.

If I have torpedo as filter 2 and a bomb for filter 4 it uses the torpedo and bomb when "Use Torpedo" is selected. When "Use Bomb" is selected only the bomb is used.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 15
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/1/2018 5:13:25 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: scopejockey

"The 04 filter alternate to the filter 02 torpedo should be a bomb of 250kg or less."

I tried 250lb, 500lb, 250kg, 500kg size bombs (both GP and AP) as filter 4. When set to Use Torpedo the aircraft, no matter type of aircraft, uses both torpedo (filter 2) and bomb (filter 4).

I've run my mod to Jan 49 many times. There is no issue with using 800kg or 2000lb bombs. Many of my late war aircraft, of all types, are armed with the heavier bombs.

The only problem I've encountered is with filter 2 and 4 (which is a known issue that is on a list of things to fix....see a few posts above).

When using the filters I've never had the game use the default alternate device.

When doing a Naval Strike, if I have torpedo as filter 2 and no filter 4 it uses the torpedo when "Use Torpedo" is selected. When "Use Bomb" is selected no weapon appears, because filter 4 was not used.

If I have torpedo as filter 2 and a bomb for filter 4 it uses the torpedo and bomb when "Use Torpedo" is selected. When "Use Bomb" is selected only the bomb is used.



Don't presume that I don't read every post in a thread. Nor should you presume that everyone who posts actually has any idea about what they say.

There is no list of bug fixes which anyone is looking into. Too many people around here like to present themselves as having direct contact with the devs.

1. The 800kg issue I referred to comes directly from the man who coded the air algorithms. It is an obvious issue based on your OP. You can prefer to rely on what others, without access to the code, say but I will always accept what the actual coder says instead.

2. The only "bug" involving torpedoes in the alternate loadouts was fixed by the coder back in 2012. It had revolved around shortage of torpedoes. Other modders have got their filters 02 and 04 to work in their mods so the problem lies with you and not with this invented 02 with 04 filter "bug". When you reach the threshold to post screenshots, do so for invariably inexperienced players never provide all the relevant details of what exactly they have done, or not done.

3. As the French say, "quel surprise" that when you order torpedoes be used, they appear on the aircraft. Also how convenient that at no stage you bother to tell us which weapon slots are being used. Both filters and weapon slots need to be used properly, especially when dealing with torpedoes. I see now that it was my mistake in believing that you had understood properly that long thread on the subject, far easier to believe that a bug exists.

Try to read what I wrote in both posts accurately and not substitute your own thinking for my words. I did not say 800kg bombs could not exist. What I said was not to make them the alternate for torpedoes, said in the context of you attempting to have them as nP in the loadout; nP of course standing for alternate Port Attack as a standard Port attack is both a different filter and presents differently on screen.

Alfred

(in reply to scopejockey)
Post #: 16
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/1/2018 5:33:46 PM   
scopejockey

 

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No need to get ugly. I never called it a bug. I asked why it is not working for me.

"invariably inexperienced players" hardly, I've been playing since UV.

When doing a Naval Strike, if I have torpedo, Wpn 3, as filter 2 and no filter 4 it uses the torpedo when "Use Torpedo" is selected. When "Use Bomb" is selected no weapon appears, because filter 4 was not used.

If I have torpedo, Wpn 3, as filter 2 and a bomb, Wpn 4, for filter 4 it uses the torpedo and bomb when "Use Torpedo" is selected. When "Use Bomb" is selected only the bomb is used.

"I did not say 800kg bombs could not exist." I did not imply that. I said there is no issue using as many of them as you want. From all of my testing the filters hold over default settings.


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 17
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/2/2018 1:05:39 PM   
RichardAckermann

 

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I briefly talked to Michaelm about this and a lot of other small issues found by players several month ago before he went on another project.
If I remember his answer right, he told me that filter 4 should be used for naval bombing, and filter 2 for naval torpedoing. No matter what device ID was used for the weapon slot.
The filters 2 & 4 should exclude each other.


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Post #: 18
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/2/2018 11:19:03 PM   
Dili

 

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That is what OP is doing. But he says when he sets the squadron to fire torpedoes the aircraft drops both.

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RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/3/2018 12:21:51 AM   
scopejockey

 

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While trying to find a work around I came across something pretty exciting. I'm still testing, but right now it seems to work. If this is known I apologize (I have not seen it in the three or four mods I have looked at).

For awhile I have been linking three to five weapons together using Alt Device/Alt Use (filter 1 and 64 do not work). Example: 22" torpedo (Alt Use 2), 2000lb bomb (Alt Use 48), Napalm (Alt Use 8), back to torpedo (Alt Device points to next weapon in string). I've always had weapons of similar weight in the string.

Today I did a new string 22" torpedo (Alt Use 2) to a 1000lb SAP (Alt Use 16) to a 1000lb GP (Alt Use 32) to a 1000lb napalm bomb (Aly Use 8) back to the torpedo.

I put ONE torpedo on the centerline of my AD-1. Opened the game, checked the loads for each mission.

Airfield Attack: 2 x 1000lb GP bombs (when I changed the weight to 20 got 114 bombs)
Port Attack: 2 x 1000lb SAP bombs
Naval Attack: 1 torpedo (no change in weapon numbers)
Ground Attack: 2 x napalm bombs

Basically the weight of the Alt Device is divided into the weight of the carried weapon the result is number of Alt Device carried.

I'm still testing. Right now I believe if an A-20 was loaded with 4 500lb bombs (Alt Use 26) would use 80 25lb parafrags (Alt Use 32).

++++++++++++++

Now I know why my IJN/IJA device strings did not work. My mod is a copy of Scenario 2. Two of the Japanese torpedoes have wrong weights and would not use the 800kg bomb. I corrected the weight and now the bomb works along with the 60kg bombs (currently I get 10 60kg bombs for a torpedo swap).

< Message edited by scopejockey -- 2/3/2018 1:19:39 PM >

(in reply to Dili)
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RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/3/2018 8:09:23 AM   
RichardAckermann

 

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The conversion of alt devices is calculated on AC load capacity if I remember correctly.
The hardcoded torpedo replacement for japan uses dual 250Kg bombs and fills the rest with dual 60 Kg bombs if fit.
You may change the AC load capacity to check if the number of alt devices is changing according to that.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili
That is what OP is doing. But he says when he sets the squadron to fire torpedoes the aircraft drops both.


Yes, I confirmed the same behaviour at least for japanese AC.
For some reason, the engine calculates
Filter = 2;
( Filter & 4 ) == TRUE && (Filter & 2 ) == TRUE
on having an airgroup "Using torpedos"

That result should only happen on filter = 6, or more precise on having filter bit 0x02 and 0x04 set to "1"


< Message edited by RichardAckermann -- 2/3/2018 8:17:42 AM >

(in reply to scopejockey)
Post #: 21
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/3/2018 1:24:29 PM   
scopejockey

 

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"( Filter & 4 ) == TRUE && (Filter & 2 ) == TRUE
on having an airgroup "Using torpedos"

Thanks.



(in reply to RichardAckermann)
Post #: 22
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/3/2018 3:18:28 PM   
Dili

 

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So any fix must be made by michaelm? or is there anyone that can look at it?

< Message edited by Dili -- 2/3/2018 3:22:52 PM >

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Post #: 23
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/3/2018 4:08:02 PM   
RichardAckermann

 

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Yes, Michaelm is the one to take a look at this and determine if it is something to fix. I think all other coders working on WITP AE have left for other projects. Yet since Michaelm is also gone for now, it maybe never looked at.
There is, by the way, another issue related to this. Airgroups having torpedoes with a filter value set are dropping those torps on missions like ground attack. At least it was so back when I tested for how the filters work.
I guess the cause is a conflict with the hardcoded torp replacements.

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 24
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/3/2018 4:54:47 PM   
Dili

 

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This is surprising since the 2 and 4 fields are the most important.
So what is the functional solution? i mean use 2+4= 6 with torpedoes or that also can't work?

If so this means that weapon filters are useless for aircraft that have torpedoes?

< Message edited by Dili -- 2/3/2018 4:55:07 PM >

(in reply to RichardAckermann)
Post #: 25
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/3/2018 5:40:53 PM   
scopejockey

 

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"If so this means that weapon filters are useless for aircraft that have torpedoes?"

1, 8, 16, 32 and 64 are not.

But for 4 it looks like it. A bit frustrating.

A setup like this works:

An example I have been using for B5N2.
1x 45cm torpedo filter 2
1x 800kg AP bomb filter 16 (was using 20, but 4 does not work for me)
6x 60kg GP bomb filter 40
3x 250kg GP bomb filter 65


Everything works fine, just no option to navy strike with bomb(s).



(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 26
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/3/2018 5:51:02 PM   
scopejockey

 

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quote:

he conversion of alt devices is calculated on AC load capacity if I remember correctly.


I think it may be a default number of bombs, not based on AC Max Load. I have some aircraft I have not edited yet. If primary weapon is a torpedo it uses 2x the default device ID (208 or 210 for Japanese). My G3Ms (not edited) are dropping
two torpedoes on airfields (I have JAAF torpedoes in device ID 208 and 210). The weight of both torpedoes is double the G3M Max Load.

This is why I wanted 2 and 4 to work. Each nation has it's own bombs and torpedoes. I did not want all Allied torpedoes to default to the same 500lb bomb and IJN.IJA to default to same 250kg bomb.

(in reply to RichardAckermann)
Post #: 27
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/3/2018 6:10:20 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: scopejockey

"If so this means that weapon filters are useless for aircraft that have torpedoes?"

1, 8, 16, 32 and 64 are not.

But for 4 it looks like it. A bit frustrating.

A setup like this works:

An example I have been using for B5N2.
1x 45cm torpedo filter 2
1x 800kg AP bomb filter 16 (was using 20, but 4 does not work for me)
6x 60kg GP bomb filter 40
3x 250kg GP bomb filter 65


Everything works fine, just no option to navy strike with bomb(s).





Thanks.
A- So what happens if you do not set to use torpedoes in squadron interface?

B -or if you set but the HQ have no torpedoes?

(in reply to scopejockey)
Post #: 28
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/4/2018 9:12:24 AM   
RichardAckermann

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

This is surprising since the 2 and 4 fields are the most important.
So what is the functional solution? i mean use 2+4= 6 with torpedoes or that also can't work?

If so this means that weapon filters are useless for aircraft that have torpedoes?


I did not find a functional solution to make the weapon filters work for craft that use torpedos.
Maybe there is a workaround using the "alternate use" and "alternate device" values of the devices itself.
I guess this filter behaviour is still at this state because there are voices that insist on this is working as it should.

I do not agree, as having one missiontype using two filter values at the same time does contradict logic.

Also, it is quite complicated to setup a good filter calculation. For my "WITP 2" I had the same issues as seen in AE before I finally got it working.

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 29
RE: Aircraft Weapon Filters - 2/4/2018 12:21:50 PM   
Dili

 

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So the game uses as alternate the device slot 208 for Axis and device slot 210 for Allies?

(in reply to RichardAckermann)
Post #: 30
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