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Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/11/2018 5:17:29 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

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1)Corps Hqs.
Currently distance from Corps HQ to their on-map units does not matter for leader's raitings.. Let's say you've Corps HQ and their division in same hex and move this HQ to somewhere far away (e.g. to New Zeland). Leader's raitings for this division will not change.
But if you move next HQ in the chain of command (e.g. Army HQ) more closer to on-map unit you'll get some additional % for raiting.
This is affect also Air component. E.g.if you want to get additional % for Air raiting for some Air bases during AF bombing on 1st German turn you can move closer Luftflotte Hqs (Army level Hqs for Airforces).

2)Army HQs.
This is mainly affect Soviet side because during summer 1941 starts from July there is happens auto-disbanding Corps Hqs. So Soviet player not only loses one level for the raiting checks but also have to keep Army Hqs in 4 hexes away from their on-map units. Because if you move this HQ to one more hex you'll lose some % for raitings (sometime up to 10%).
Exampe 4-5 hexes difference:
At start of GC we have SS division directly assigned to 4th Panzer Group.For purity of calculations let's move AGN and OKH Hqs to hex with 4th Panzer Group HQ. Now numbers of raitings for SS division:
4 hexes from Hqs – 56,8-82,9-94,1-78,0-81,9
5 hexes from Hqs – 49,0-73,6-86,3-67,8-72,4

These things looks a bit disbalanced and sometime even absurdly and funny.I hope that something can be reworked for this “strange” mechanics.

For sure unlimited distance for Corps Hqs must be restricted. There can be added additional distance for some Hqs (e.g. for Panzer Corps,Panzer Groups,Tank Armies). Leader's Initiative can be added for the calculation of the maximum distance.
Air forces can have separate formulas/mechanics for these calculations.
Also for calculation “on-map unit – next Hqs in chain of command” need to count only distance between Hqs (if we calculate raitings for on-map unit after failing 1st check). I want to say if we have the chain “division-Corps-Army-Army Group-OKH” and for some reasons need to calculate raiting for division – Army(or next Hqs), than need only count distance between Hqs.

And sorry my English so specific =)
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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/13/2018 12:28:41 AM   
Nirosi

 

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Hi Dreamslayer,

Could the answer be that the distance is not taken into account for the 1st HQ of a particular unit (not necessarely the corps HQs)? So most of the time it will be corps for Axis but Armies for Soviets.

If it is as such it would cancel the discrepancy.

Regards,

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/13/2018 12:04:24 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

Hi Dreamslayer,

Could the answer be that the distance is not taken into account for the 1st HQ of a particular unit (not necessarely the corps HQs)? So most of the time it will be corps for Axis but Armies for Soviets.

If it is as such it would cancel the discrepancy.

Regards,

Hey.

Currently the unlimited range works only for units assigned to Corps HQs. It's easy to check via moving units which directly assigned to Army Hqs(on both sides) or vice versa.
And some of these “issues” can't be solved by application of this rule (unlimited range) for all directly assigned on-map units of all HQs higher than Corps.

Atm these “issues” are:
1 Unlimited range for Corps HQs.
How is it possible to effectively command by units if HQ is very far.

2 Locations of Hqs that higher than Corps.
Currently player have to keep them more closer to combat units. But more correctly would be for the logic of their positioning, consider the locations of lower level HQs.

These two things leads to absurd. When player have to move Army and higher Hqs more closer to combat units and same time Corps HQs can be far behind.

3 Starts from July (about turn 5) Soviet player not only lose these magic unlimited-range Corps HQs and one level in rating checks but also have “issue” with “4/5 – hex border” for Army HQs.

(in reply to Nirosi)
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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/13/2018 2:56:05 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Hi Dreamslayer,

I I tried moving them away as you said in a scenario to check. However, I did not move the unit away from an HQ since then the unit would also move away from all HQs in it’s chain (so impossible to see if the reduction is due to the 1st or 2nd HQ). So I instead moved quite a few hexes away the 1st HQ (a Soviet army HQ), check the stats, and then moved the second one higher up (a front HQ).

I did not notice any change in the stats when I moved the army (the first in the chain of combatant of that unit’s HQ) but did notice a reduction when I moved the Front HQ (although I must say a very small one)

I did the same thing with a soviet corps (airborne) vs army vs front. Same result: no change for the first HQ only.

I used the stats in percentages displayed in the unit’s second column of the supply info, I guess those are the one we are talking about? Also, in case it makes a difference, I am using the latest beta patch.

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/13/2018 3:03:57 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nirosi
I I tried moving them away as you said in a scenario to check. However, I did not move the unit away from an HQ since then the unit would also move away from all HQs in it’s chain (so impossible to see if the reduction is due to the 1st or 2nd HQ). So I instead moved quite a few hexes away the 1st HQ (a Soviet army HQ), check the stats, and then moved the second one higher up (a front HQ).


it is possible to test it by moving the 1st level HQ not the unit

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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/13/2018 3:13:24 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

Hi Dreamslayer,

I I tried moving them away as you said in a scenario to check. However, I did not move the unit away from an HQ since then the unit would also move away from all HQs in it’s chain (so impossible to see if the reduction is due to the 1st or 2nd HQ). So I instead moved quite a few hexes away the 1st HQ (a Soviet army HQ), check the stats, and then moved the second one higher up (a front HQ).

I did not notice any change in the stats when I moved the army (the first in the chain of combatant of that unit’s HQ) but did notice a reduction when I moved the Front HQ (although I must say a very small one)

I did the same thing with a soviet corps (airborne) vs army vs front. Same result: no change for the first HQ only.

I used the stats in percentages displayed in the unit’s second column of the supply info, I guess those are the one we are talking about? Also, in case it makes a difference, I am using the latest beta patch.


Example from 1st German turn in GC'41:
move OKH and AGN to 4th PzGroup's hex
move SS division to 4 hexes away from HQs and check ratings (let's it be morale – we have 56,8)
move this division to 1 more hex – morale drops to 49,0
move 4th PzGroup HQ to 1 hex to this division – morale increases back to 56,8

So,optimal range for units that assigned directly to Armies is 4 hexes.

(in reply to Nirosi)
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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/13/2018 4:20:13 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Hi Dreamslayer,

I did as you said and moved the army HQ away from the SS division (I did not bother moving higher up HQs since their distance to the division would remain constant anyway) and to my surprise, yes the stats did decrease at the 5ht hex as you said. And this of course did not happen with corps. This does bring up more questions however.

1)Morale also wen down but the rule book seems to say that morale is not affected by range

2)Once the 5th hex was reached, there was no more reduction, whether at 6, 8 or15 hexes! I must say this was counter intuitive…

3) Also, I doubled checked my earlier test with the Soviets in another scenario (there a quite a few scenarios where the Soviets start). And once again, when I moved a Soviet Army HQ away from it’s unit, there was no change in stats whether at 4, 5 or 17 hexes. Maybe soviet armies do have the same rule of no distance as Axis corps?

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/13/2018 4:33:26 PM   
Telemecus


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One thing to note is that when ranges get large the changes get smaller - so you will come to a point eventually when the change will not reach two decimal points.

(in reply to Nirosi)
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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/13/2018 5:41:24 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

Hi Dreamslayer,

I did as you said and moved the army HQ away from the SS division (I did not bother moving higher up HQs since their distance to the division would remain constant anyway) and to my surprise, yes the stats did decrease at the 5ht hex as you said. And this of course did not happen with corps. This does bring up more questions however.

1)Morale also wen down but the rule book seems to say that morale is not affected by range

2)Once the 5th hex was reached, there was no more reduction, whether at 6, 8 or15 hexes! I must say this was counter intuitive…

3) Also, I doubled checked my earlier test with the Soviets in another scenario (there a quite a few scenarios where the Soviets start). And once again, when I moved a Soviet Army HQ away from it’s unit, there was no change in stats whether at 4, 5 or 17 hexes. Maybe soviet armies do have the same rule of no distance as Axis corps?


I've checked in other scenario (Stalingrad to Berlin) and in my pbem game.
You're right ,there are Soviet Army HQs starts works as German Corps HQs(unlimited range for ratings). Perhaps its happened same turn when Soviet Corps HQs starts to disbands (5th turn).

But others things still questionable.

I'm also was sure that range is not affect morale checks as it said in the game manual.

(in reply to Nirosi)
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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/13/2018 5:45:53 PM   
KenchiSulla


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The way it works:

Morale: No distance penalty

Other stats:
1st level HQ - no distance penalty for attached units (Army, Corps does not matter)
2nd level HQ - distance penalty. The effect is roll (20) + range HQ to unit
3rd level HQ - distance penalty. The effect is roll (40) + range HQ to unit
4th level HQ - distance penalty. The effect is roll (80) + range HQ to unit

An example of the result for Soviet Southwestern front, calculated for 1st level HQ (ARMY ONLY) - no distance penalty (STAVkA and SW Front on top of unit)






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivo

(in reply to Telemecus)
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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/13/2018 5:46:35 PM   
KenchiSulla


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With distance penalty (15 hexes for front, 50 hexes for Stavka)






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivo

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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/13/2018 5:49:49 PM   
KenchiSulla


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It is about command focus simulation. Normally the 1st level HQ is in direct control of attached units. The decision to not have a distance penalty for 1st level HQs seems to be a practical one. A reduction of the penalty (you could also look at it as a bonus) by moving command focus from army, army group, front, high command / STAVKA towards critical areas of the front is simply another tool in the players toolbox.

The german player has the clear advantage:

- A higher quantity of capable leaders
- An additional level of checks (could lead to 1 - 3 % increase of chance to make a benicial role PER UNIT)
- More flexibility due to corps level command

< Message edited by KenchiSulla -- 1/13/2018 5:51:25 PM >


_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivo

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/13/2018 5:51:13 PM   
Telemecus


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Also means you can place the first level of command for supply purposes - and others only for ratings checks. If the first location matter for both supply and ratings checks the positioning would be much more difficult to decide on

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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/13/2018 5:54:59 PM   
KenchiSulla


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Note that there are circumstances where it is better to directly attach units to a good army commander (and eliminate one level of command) instead of to individual corps. This makes a lot of sense. Sometimes it is better to give the orders yourself as compared to the village idiot.....

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivo

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 14
RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/13/2018 6:16:33 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

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quote:

1st level HQ - no distance penalty for attached units (Army, Corps does not matter)

KenchiSulla, what you mean no penalty (for morale too) if there is penalty in my example of SS division and 4th Pz Group HQs?

I can even accept this strange thing when Model and his HQ's guys sit in a bar in Potsdam while his divisions somewhere in the Ural mountains. And it does not affect rating.
Mostly I'm surprised by logic how is HQ command chain have to be positioned on the map for best effect of ratings. For more effect player have to keep Army and others higher lvl HQs more closer to combat units than Corps HQs. It's looks like we have no Corps HQs on the map as HQ , only as supply/support units source.
I would like to see logic where is for location of German Army HQ accounted of locations their Corps HQs, not combat units. Same for calculations various checks.

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/13/2018 6:49:57 PM   
KenchiSulla


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What it means is that regardless if unit is attached to army or corps (1st level HQ) there is no distance penalty.

Corps - no distance penalty
Army - roll (20) + distance to unit divided by 2
Army Group (40) + distance to unit divided by 3
OKH (80) + distance to unit divided by 4

OR

Army - no distance penalty
Army Group - roll (20) + distance to unit divided by 2
OKH - (40) + distance to unit divided by 3

The way I look at it is that the direct HQ is in control of the division and distance is relevant for committing support on time (when requested by division) and keeping the unit in supply. The bonus from Army and higher command simply means additional focus, directions and control from Army level command staff.

As for your example of Model / HQ - it does matter and the player is severely punished - no support units and severe penalties to supply....





_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivo

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 16
RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/13/2018 7:10:22 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

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So, there is need to have explanation for term “1st level HQ “.
Very likely it is all Corps HQs and from 5th Soviet turn it is also Soviet Army HQs.

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/13/2018 7:17:00 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

So, there is need to have explanation for term “1st level HQ “.
Very likely it is all Corps HQs and from 5th Soviet turn it is also Soviet Army HQs.


But not necessarily. 99Lt division for instance starts the game with its first level HQ as Army Group South.
Where you assign your units is up to you - and using corps in Axis and army in Soviet sides is not always the best choice.

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/13/2018 9:09:15 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Hi KenchiSulla , Telemecus,

Tanks for the explanation. However I am still confused by the numbers I see on screen. For example, for the 99th light division (attached to AGN) and for the SS division attached to the 4th Panzergroup, there are two sets of stats : one for range 1-4 and one fore range 5+. The moment their HQs are 5+ hexes, all stats (including morale) fall, but just once at the movement from 4 to 5 hexes. This however does not apply to units attached to corps.

Could there be another reason other than just "range" that explain this particular drop? I thought maybe isolation but that is not it.

(in reply to Telemecus)
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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/14/2018 12:14:24 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

Hi KenchiSulla , Telemecus,

Tanks for the explanation. However I am still confused by the numbers I see on screen. For example, for the 99th light division (attached to AGN) and for the SS division attached to the 4th Panzergroup, there are two sets of stats : one for range 1-4 and one fore range 5+. The moment their HQs are 5+ hexes, all stats (including morale) fall, but just once at the movement from 4 to 5 hexes. This however does not apply to units attached to corps.

Could there be another reason other than just "range" that explain this particular drop? I thought maybe isolation but that is not it.


I have to say in our experience this never matches what I see - so it may be worth doing screenshots to demonstrate as it may be something else. So far when I move the HQs there is never any change in the morale rating. It may also be worth looking at the forum thread called "USSR Fronts" which has a post by one of the developers detailing extra ratings checks in the game not documented in the manual, patch notes or previously in the players forums. For example there is a ratings check called the last chance roll.

There are rounding down formulas which mean that the range penalty is applied as following
First level command - no penalty
Second level command - no penalty one hex away, one penalty two or three away, two penalty, four or five away etc.
Third level - no penalty two hexes away, one penalty for three to five hexes away, two penalty for six to eight penalties away etc

So it could be you are facing a place where there is no change because of rounding.

Perhaps with a save we can demonstrate from the same situation where the error is creeping in?

(in reply to Nirosi)
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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/15/2018 2:04:22 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Ok thanks, will try to post a screenshot soon.

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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/15/2018 8:28:33 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Hi,

Here you can see the SS division at 1 hex from HQ. Those stats will remain the same up to range 4.



Attachment (1)

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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/15/2018 8:31:54 PM   
Nirosi

 

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And here you can see the same division the moment the HQ moves from 4 to 5 hexes. And those new stats will remain the same no matter what the distance after that (6, 8 or 12)...


I also took captures for the 99th light divison attached to AGS. But I do not know how to post more than one picture per message, and how to make them appear in the message directly. If somebody has a trick... :-)

Attachment (1)

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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/15/2018 9:49:36 PM   
Nix77

 

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Is the SS div attached to army group? It could be that high level HQs are not allowed to be ”1st level HQ”, which makes kind of sense.

(in reply to Nirosi)
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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/15/2018 10:06:31 PM   
Nirosi

 

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The SS is attached to the 4th Panzergroup (army level) . The 99th light division is indeed attached directly to AGS. Still, even if that is the explanation, why the sudden drop at exactly 5 hexes and no more after that, and why also the morale drop? So many subtleties...

(in reply to Nix77)
Post #: 25
RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/16/2018 6:09:57 AM   
KenchiSulla


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I can reproduce Nirosis observation... Perhaps Morvael can contribute here?

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivo

(in reply to Nirosi)
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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/16/2018 8:28:49 AM   
Nix77

 

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Seems like units under HQs that are meant to be "non-direct" HQs (Front/Stavka and Army/ArmyGrp/OKH), suffer a -25% penalty to ALL leader rolls when units are 5 or more hexes away from them. This is a really good thing, since they're not supposed to have direct units in active combat roles except in special cases.

Not sure why the limit is 5+ hexes and not 6+ which would be more intuitive.


EDIT: this is actually really good info, I've never noticed this, and I'm sure people using units in direct Stavka or Front control (I guess this is more common on the Soviet side) are really glad (or sad) to notice this!

< Message edited by Nix77 -- 1/16/2018 8:35:01 AM >

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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/16/2018 12:53:15 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

Seems like units under HQs that are meant to be "non-direct" HQs (Front/Stavka and Army/ArmyGrp/OKH), suffer a -25% penalty to ALL leader rolls when units are 5 or more hexes away from them. This is a really good thing, since they're not supposed to have direct units in active combat roles except in special cases.

Not sure why the limit is 5+ hexes and not 6+ which would be more intuitive.


EDIT: this is actually really good info, I've never noticed this, and I'm sure people using units in direct Stavka or Front control (I guess this is more common on the Soviet side) are really glad (or sad) to notice this!


I'd recomend reading the USSR fronts thread - it details a lot of extra die rolls and ratings penalties not detailed in the manual or patch notes. I imagine that may go a long way to explaining this.

(in reply to Nix77)
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RE: Distance to HQ. Strange things. - 1/16/2018 1:02:26 PM   
Nix77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

Seems like units under HQs that are meant to be "non-direct" HQs (Front/Stavka and Army/ArmyGrp/OKH), suffer a -25% penalty to ALL leader rolls when units are 5 or more hexes away from them. This is a really good thing, since they're not supposed to have direct units in active combat roles except in special cases.

Not sure why the limit is 5+ hexes and not 6+ which would be more intuitive.


EDIT: this is actually really good info, I've never noticed this, and I'm sure people using units in direct Stavka or Front control (I guess this is more common on the Soviet side) are really glad (or sad) to notice this!


I'd recomend reading the USSR fronts thread - it details a lot of extra die rolls and ratings penalties not detailed in the manual or patch notes. I imagine that may go a long way to explaining this.



Lazy me, never took the time to find it since there were no direct links provided!

And there it all is, even the 4 hex limit!

Many thanks for pointing that out :)

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 29
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