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OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/10/2018 11:48:34 PM   
Footslogger


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I was wondering if what I heard was true?

Also, if the Chinese did have panzers, how did they do against the Japanese tanks?



< Message edited by Footslogger -- 1/10/2018 11:49:03 PM >
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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/11/2018 12:11:14 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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a few MG armed Panzer I


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanks_in_China

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-German_cooperation_1926%E2%80%931941

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/11/2018 1:01:53 AM   
Big B

 

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The Chinese had Soviet T-26 light tanks, they certainly would have been a match for any Japanese tanks of the era...I don't know of any tank vs tank engagements between the two.
Later, the Chinese used M4 Mediums, M-18 Hellcat TD's, and M3A3 Lights. The Chinese had a deal in place to receive some 250 M2 Light tanks - but I don't know if they ever arrived before Pearl Harbor.



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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/11/2018 1:53:47 AM   
spence

 

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From the links it would seem that the Chinese only managed to have one armored/mechanized division in the field by 12/41 but that that division had tanks that most certainly could compete with the armored units of the IJA on a very adequate basis.

In PBEMs I've seen IJA armored units advance hundreds of miles into the Chinese rear areas (apparently buying or confiscating gasoline from the "all too common vendors" of such commodities in the Chinese hinterlands or else hauling their gasoline on some very strong and fast horses/mules). Against the average Chinese peasant the Japanese tanks of 1941 (or 1945 for that matter) were adequate and it seems that wherever Japanese tanks attack Chinese units the tanks inflict heavy casualties on the Chinese while suffering nearly no losses themselves.

Perhaps the Japanese should have to worry a bit about running into the Chinese 200th Division. Said division apparently fought very well against the IJA/held in Burma until such time as it was outflanked and cut off.

The IJA had 4 years to overwhelm China when China had almost no friends in the world. Japan failed and created a stalemate. The game seems to portray Japan's simple solution to said problem was to declare war on the rest of the planet. Such a portrait of anything even approaching reality is UTTERLY LUDICROUS. At the very least the IJ Player should have to worry about getting a bloody nose when he runs into the wrong Chinese unit.

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/11/2018 2:05:18 AM   
Big B

 

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The Chinese 200th Div lost nearly 2/3's of it's tanks (Soviet) in operations on the Burmese/Chinese border area around 1941-1942, I have read.
However, the last of the Nationalist Chinese Army's T-26's (about a battalion in strength) were still in action in the civil war of 1949...so certainly, China's pre-war tank strength was not spent in WW2....not counting USA Lend Lease.

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

From the links it would seem that the Chinese only managed to have one armored/mechanized division in the field by 12/41 but that that division had tanks that most certainly could compete with the armored units of the IJA on a very adequate basis.

In PBEMs I've seen IJA armored units advance hundreds of miles into the Chinese rear areas (apparently buying or confiscating gasoline from the "all too common vendors" of such commodities in the Chinese hinterlands or else hauling their gasoline on some very strong and fast horses/mules). Against the average Chinese peasant the Japanese tanks of 1941 (or 1945 for that matter) were adequate and it seems that wherever Japanese tanks attack Chinese units the tanks inflict heavy casualties on the Chinese while suffering nearly no losses themselves.

Perhaps the Japanese should have to worry a bit about running into the Chinese 200th Division. Said division apparently fought very well against the IJA/held in Burma until such time as it was outflanked and cut off.

The IJA had 4 years to overwhelm China when China had almost no friends in the world. Japan failed and created a stalemate. The game seems to portray Japan's simple solution to said problem was to declare war on the rest of the planet. Such a portrait of anything even approaching reality is UTTERLY LUDICROUS. At the very least the IJ Player should have to worry about getting a bloody nose when he runs into the wrong Chinese unit.



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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/11/2018 8:04:21 AM   
RichardAckermann

 

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I do not know all too much about the war in china, before and during the games time era.
What were the reasons for japan to only achieve a stalemate?


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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/11/2018 1:36:08 PM   
spence

 

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quote:

What were the reasons for japan to only achieve a stalemate?


Lack of a modern of a rail net and a horse drawn supply organization. Japanese troops had better equipment and greater combat power than the Chinese but were overextended logistically. The Chinese had more men than the Japanese had bullets.

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/11/2018 2:07:22 PM   
Yaab


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Look at the combat losses for KMT China in 1937-1945 period. KMT switched to defence after Dec 7,1941 knowing that is was now USA's turn to bleed themselves in the war.

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/11/2018 3:30:44 PM   
Skyros


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Its too bad that Symons Asian roads mod was never fully developed before he left. Also the Supply restraints we see in Burma and Eastern India should be extended to China to represent the difficulty of supplying a major offensive.

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/11/2018 5:37:22 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

The Chinese had Soviet T-26 light tanks, they certainly would have been a match for any Japanese tanks of the era...I don't know of any tank vs tank engagements between the two.
Later, the Chinese used M4 Mediums, M-18 Hellcat TD's, and M3A3 Lights. The Chinese had a deal in place to receive some 250 M2 Light tanks - but I don't know if they ever arrived before Pearl Harbor.




According to the book "Am Himmel uber China 1937-1940" - first published in Russian version in Moscow 1980 - the SU provided
China with 82 T-26 tanks in 1938. Also in all 1550 other vehicles, 1317 artillery pieces, 14000 machine guns, 1.9 mill. artillery
shells, 164 mill. rounds of rifle ammo, 82000 bombs of various types and 985 aircraft.

Fred


< Message edited by Leandros -- 1/11/2018 5:39:38 PM >


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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/11/2018 8:57:10 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Look at the combat losses for KMT China in 1937-1945 period. KMT switched to defence after Dec 7,1941 knowing that is was now USA's turn to bleed themselves in the war.


Both Chang and the Communists realized that with the US entry into the war meant that the Japanese would be defeated elsewhere and eventually forced to leave China. But this is not the only reason they were on the defensive. By 1941 the Japanese held more than 90% of the Chinese industrial base. China did not have a whole lot to fight with after that. But of course, we should not forget the estimated 2.5 to 3 million Chinese troops that did die fighting the Japanese, and the estimated 20-40 million civilians.

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/12/2018 3:42:14 AM   
Shark7


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In 1937, during the Battle of Shanghai, China committed around 40 light tanks to the battle. The majority of which were Vickers Mark E Type B light tanks. There were also a few Panzer I present. And several armored cars as well. The end result of the battle was a Chinese defeat and loss of almost all their tanks and armored cars.

From what I've read, this single battle effectively limited China's ability to carry out any offensive operations until late in the war, due to the loss of so many of their best soldiers.

In the end, the Japanese tanks were not better than what the Chinese fielded, but there were 7 times as many Japanese tanks as Chinese.

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/12/2018 2:22:05 PM   
spence

 

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So we now know what happened in 1937 but earlier in the thread we hear that the Soviets provided 80 odd T-26 tanks in 1938. While it is true that the KMT didn't have a lot of tanks and certainly lacked the German-style doctrine for the employment of tanks it is not true that they had no tanks.

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/13/2018 2:36:20 PM   
m10bob


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http://www.wwiivehicles.com/china/default.asp


This is a decent albeit brief listing of armor used by China in WW2..

I was also able to verify some Marmon Herringtons produced in Indianapolis as 2 and 3 man "tankettes", but they ended up in Alaska and Africa with the Brits, none getting into Chinese service.

< Message edited by m10bob -- 1/13/2018 2:39:55 PM >


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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/13/2018 2:50:09 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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Many types of Panzers are rolling off the production lines in China.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OdGh8guiFU

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/13/2018 2:52:26 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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Why did the Chinese have German Panzers? - Sino-German Cooperation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2FJY4XULuY

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/13/2018 3:09:04 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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1937 German Trained Chinese Army

The 88th Division was one of the first divisions to be reorganized and alongside the 36th Division and 87th Division became the cream of the crop of the National Revolutionary Army.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUGxZQRzQOg

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/13/2018 3:14:04 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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Japanese crew with their capture Panzer I Ausf. A in China




Attachment (1)

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/13/2018 3:25:50 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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挑戰新聞軍事精華版--抗戰時期的中日坦克對決

Video of German tanks in China

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=203y0jF7GE8

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/13/2018 4:53:29 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Japanese crew??? with their capture Panzer I Ausf. A in China




All five of them fit in there?!

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/13/2018 4:56:31 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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I just reported the pic title from the source. I don't see how 1 fits in. The scale makes the pic look Photoshopped.

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/13/2018 4:59:32 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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M4 Sherman -Killer- and Japanese tankette on kwajalein




Attachment (1)

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/13/2018 7:46:25 PM   
rustysi


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Just an FYI here. To keep things a bit in perspective, in 1938 Japan had more tanks than Germany.

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/14/2018 4:12:01 AM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn



I just reported the pic title from the source. I don't see how 1 fits in. The scale makes the pic look Photoshopped.

I've seen a few museum pieces so I totally believe the scale is real, I'm just thinking "FIVE??!!! ". Wow!

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/14/2018 7:33:31 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn



I just reported the pic title from the source. I don't see how 1 fits in. The scale makes the pic look Photoshopped.

I've seen a few museum pieces so I totally believe the scale is real, I'm just thinking "FIVE??!!! ". Wow!

Right - one to drive, one to command and use the MGs, one to wave that flag, one to tend the garden on the rear deck, and one to wipe every trace of mud off the sprocket and road wheels.

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/14/2018 8:30:26 AM   
RichardAckermann

 

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Garden on rear deck - best explanation ever for crew size.
As far as I know, those Panzer I types had 2 crew. One to drive and one to operate the twin MG.
Some of them saw service during the opening stages of the war in europe, but they were quickly withdrawn from frontline duty.
I cannot imagine how to squeeze 5 in there. Probably maintenance or support "crew".

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/14/2018 2:37:25 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn



I just reported the pic title from the source. I don't see how 1 fits in. The scale makes the pic look Photoshopped.

I've seen a few museum pieces so I totally believe the scale is real, I'm just thinking "FIVE??!!! ". Wow!


It's real and SURREAL... and those are smaller soldiers compared to western sizes.

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/14/2018 2:38:17 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn



I just reported the pic title from the source. I don't see how 1 fits in. The scale makes the pic look Photoshopped.

I've seen a few museum pieces so I totally believe the scale is real, I'm just thinking "FIVE??!!! ". Wow!

Right - one to drive, one to command and use the MGs, one to wave that flag, one to tend the garden on the rear deck, and one to wipe every trace of mud off the sprocket and road wheels.


A Banzai gardener....

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/14/2018 3:26:18 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn



I just reported the pic title from the source. I don't see how 1 fits in. The scale makes the pic look Photoshopped.

I've seen a few museum pieces so I totally believe the scale is real, I'm just thinking "FIVE??!!! ". Wow!

Right - one to drive, one to command and use the MGs, one to wave that flag, one to tend the garden on the rear deck, and one to wipe every trace of mud off the sprocket and road wheels.


A Banzai gardener....

Bonsai gardens?

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RE: OT: The Chinese Had Panzers? - 1/14/2018 3:41:16 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Japanese crew??? with their capture Panzer I Ausf. A in China




All five of them fit in there?!



The Pzkpw 1 had a crew of two..In the pic shown, only one person is wearing the Japanese "tank" uniform, the others are grunts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_I

< Message edited by m10bob -- 1/14/2018 3:44:28 PM >


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