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RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW)

 
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RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/5/2018 6:14:53 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 35581
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Turn 231
2nd December 1942


The victory level is 96 - and for the first time moves to marginal victory. However I have a message from devoncop to say that he will concede at the end of my turn as he is literally scrabbling round for units.

It would have been nice to see how the last dozen turns play out and how far the CW could get, but I understand from devoncop's point of view that simply retreating in the hope that you keep the score as low as possible isn't perhaps the best fun.

I still don't quite understand what happened - and guess I won't until I see it from the Axis side. One minute it seemed there was an impenetrable wall of Axis units, well dug-in with copious tank, aircraft and artillery support and then..... there wasn't.

So thanks again to devoncop for a thoroughly enjoyable frolic in the sand

With STBP and now CFNA done, I can concentrate on PAW - and that needs a lot of concentration. I still have four other CFNA non-AAR games going (and am losing heavily in three of them!) so I can give them more time too.

I'm really impressed Rob dude. You're working on your PhD in TOAW wargamming and you're learning by leaps and bounds and I see steady improvement. Good for you. You're a good opponent and you have instincts for this.

I'm constantly running into potential opponents that want to play PBEM but have very limited time for it. I'm feeling their pain. I kind of think of TOAW as not just a video game but as a pretty accurate simulator about war. An accurate way to play out what-if's and try different things to see what's best. A scientific experiment being conducted using mathematical models that have been tweaked fur accuracy and relevence. It's a very much more complicated form of Chess.

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Post #: 1111
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/5/2018 7:02:02 AM   
devoncop


Posts: 654
Joined: 7/17/2006
Status: offline
Hi Rob

I have popped in to give you appropriate public recognition for both the victory and the phenomenal AAR. Though I haven't been able to read it I have seen the pages increasing along with the page views (over 30,000....,wow).

I thought maybe you would find it a bit tedious driving through empty desert capturing towns which is why I suurendered. After conducting a too long delayed fighting withdrawal from Egypt I had nothing but the tattered remnants of the 15th and 21st Panzer Division's left...maybe two or three regiments worth. The Tobruk garrison had long since been stripped to try and maintain the line.

The game as a whole has been a revelation and this scenario ....learning as we did in tandem has been invaluable. So many mistakes....I never realised the power of the JU87's in driving off the CW fleet (despite clear advice from Curtis) so took far more losses taking Tobruk than needed.The delay in using armour to storm the defences also wasted a lot of Italian infantry.

I also failed to recognise the damage poor supply causes when trying to batter through the CW defence lines in Egypt. In retrospect I am not sure that preserving the Axis force just East of Bardia and digging in with good supply rather than pressing on to El Alemain would have been possible but for a short time it did look possible to get to Alexandria....ah those were the days

I hope people enjoyed the to and fro despite our stumbles and thank Rob again for all his work.

Now I have an appointment with Adolf to explain how it all went wrong
I

_____________________________

"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 1112
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/5/2018 7:10:01 AM   
Szilard

 

Posts: 349
Joined: 1/3/2001
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Thanks for the hugely enjoyable AAR.

And kudos to the scenario designer - it seems to capture the history pretty well, combined with a tense fun game.

I wonder how many people ever got this far with the original CFNA monster?

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1113
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/5/2018 9:40:38 AM   
MikeJ19


Posts: 1613
Joined: 1/29/2014
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
Rob,

Great job. I really enjoyed reading your AAR. The scenario looks like a good challenge.

Thanks for taking the time to put it all together! I look forward to reading more in your PAW AAR.

All the best,

_____________________________

Mike

Retired Gunner

(in reply to Szilard)
Post #: 1114
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/5/2018 2:58:57 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 10724
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
That was an extremely enjoyable read, despite the continuous piteous whining and the less-than-ideal shots of movement points. To have come back from a complete balls-up of O'Connor's Raid to absolute victory is a signal accomplishment. Well done!

Maybe we could have some end of game shots?

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to MikeJ19)
Post #: 1115
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/5/2018 3:04:48 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 10724
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Szilard

And kudos to the scenario designer - it seems to capture the history pretty well, combined with a tense fun game.


Thank you. Things did work out pretty historically, didn't they.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Szilard)
Post #: 1116
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/5/2018 3:38:25 PM   
devoncop


Posts: 654
Joined: 7/17/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Szilard

And kudos to the scenario designer - it seems to capture the history pretty well, combined with a tense fun game.


Thank you. Things did work out pretty historically, didn't they.



As the designer you must have been tearing your hair out at some of our idiocies but I can only applaud your design. If you don't look too closely at the tactical screw ups the strategic to and fro could hardly have been modelled better.

I heard this scenario was a masterpiece and I heard right.

Many thanks

Ian



_____________________________

"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 1117
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/5/2018 4:29:12 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 37321
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

That was an extremely enjoyable read, despite the continuous piteous whining and the less-than-ideal shots of movement points.
warspite1

Yes, the AAR's are warts and all productions . They are sanitised because its a family friendly forum, but the anger, at game design, bugs, and my own monunental stupidity are there for all to see. The former hopefully helps with an even more superior product , the latter is a bit of self-flagellation that showcases my gaming limitations .

But the key point - if its not clear from the number of games I'm playing and the comments I've made on this game in this and other forums is that this is an excellent, fun, immersive game.

Now, there's the praise - now just fix interdiction already (as our Colonial cousins say )


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 1118
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/5/2018 4:57:10 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 37321
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: devoncop

Hi Rob

I have popped in to give you appropriate public recognition for both the victory and the phenomenal AAR. Though I haven't been able to read it I have seen the pages increasing along with the page views (over 30,000....,wow).

I thought maybe you would find it a bit tedious driving through empty desert capturing towns which is why I suurendered. After conducting a too long delayed fighting withdrawal from Egypt I had nothing but the tattered remnants of the 15th and 21st Panzer Division's left...maybe two or three regiments worth. The Tobruk garrison had long since been stripped to try and maintain the line.

The game as a whole has been a revelation and this scenario ....learning as we did in tandem has been invaluable. So many mistakes....I never realised the power of the JU87's in driving off the CW fleet (despite clear advice from Curtis) so took far more losses taking Tobruk than needed.The delay in using armour to storm the defences also wasted a lot of Italian infantry.

I also failed to recognise the damage poor supply causes when trying to batter through the CW defence lines in Egypt. In retrospect I am not sure that preserving the Axis force just East of Bardia and digging in with good supply rather than pressing on to El Alemain would have been possible but for a short time it did look possible to get to Alexandria....ah those were the days

I hope people enjoyed the to and fro despite our stumbles and thank Rob again for all his work.

Now I have an appointment with Adolf to explain how it all went wrong
I
warspite1

Hi devoncop - thank-you.

I would say (from my limited view of things) that you made just one tactical mistake (the Stuka/RN thing doesn't really count as we were learning the game). There was a point where your advance seemed to stall and I really felt the need to get on the attack. However I decided instead to withdraw and try and draw you forward out of your prepared positions. That was the one time in the game I thought a plan of action was actually working.

Although I'm not happy, with the game, that the German paratroopers could land in Alexandria when I had air superiority (I may have mentioned that once or twice ) the game allowed it and you played that brilliantly - capturing Alexandria and putting the RN out of the game permanently.

You got your reward for being bold whereas by contrast I was too chicken to use the amphibious capability east of Derna that I had toward the end of the game.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to devoncop)
Post #: 1119
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/5/2018 4:58:23 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 37321
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeJ19

Rob,

Great job. I really enjoyed reading your AAR. The scenario looks like a good challenge.

Thanks for taking the time to put it all together! I look forward to reading more in your PAW AAR.

All the best,
warspite1

Hi MikeJ19 I hope to be meeting you in this scenario when you end your self imposed PBEM exile in the autumn


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to MikeJ19)
Post #: 1120
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/5/2018 5:00:15 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 37321
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Szilard

Thanks for the hugely enjoyable AAR.

warspite1

Thank-you Szilard, and for being a supporter of the thread as it developed - and in particular the words of encouragement when I was having one of many crises of confidence!


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Szilard)
Post #: 1121
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/5/2018 11:08:32 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 10724
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: devoncop

As the designer you must have been tearing your hair out at some of our idiocies but I can only applaud your design. If you don't look too closely at the tactical screw ups the strategic to and fro could hardly have been modelled better.

I heard this scenario was a masterpiece and I heard right.

Many thanks

Ian


Thank you for your kind words. I think you did a respectable job of filling Rommel's shoes. They are rather large.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to devoncop)
Post #: 1122
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/6/2018 4:43:59 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 37321
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online
As requested, here are some end of game shots. Now I know the outcome I don't really have motivation to actually do my turn (although did do a couple of RBC moves) so will show things pretty much as they are at the end of the Axis turn 231 2nd December 1942.

The Overall Situation. As can be seen the result has tripped into 'marginal victory' for the first time.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/6/2018 6:05:04 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 1123
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/6/2018 5:02:48 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 37321
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online
Aircraft

I showed an update last turn on squadron strengths and that won't have changed much so won't repeat that here. For most turns - and all turns since the Axis air forces began their retreat - I've been employing a policy of resting all aircraft not on 'dark green' status.

With the Axis in the ascendancy and the Allied aircraft obviously handicapped, the amount of fine tuning was heavier because I had to ensure that aircraft within each squadron was sufficient for them to fly - and if not then put them not just to rest, but put the range to 0 and get them out of the way to re-build. Latterly I haven't bothered as there's been no need.

Air Superiority was showing as 16 vs 1 and it had been massively in the CW favour for many months




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1124
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/6/2018 5:07:50 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 37321
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online
The construction units had begun the task of repairing the rail road west from Mersah Matruh, although they had not got very far by the time the game ended.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1125
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/6/2018 5:16:17 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 37321
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online
Most units were on red or orange - there simply wasn't the time to muck about if I was to get a victory - and just had to hope the Axis were in as poor a state. However, some units had enforced rest because when attacking the Halfaya Pass there simply wasn't the room for many units.

The position south of Halfaya was also easing and the plan was to halt as many units as practicable to allow recovery while still continuing the chase to Tobruk.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1126
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/6/2018 5:25:30 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 37321
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online
Supply

I kept all four supply units intact during the game (easy to lose the two that you start the game with during the early turns). I wasn't sure of their best positioning but had them spread out along the coast road (there are airfields along the route and some reinforcements have to stop along the way) with one always close to the front line (yellow circle). They can't move off the coastal road in this scenario which always meant that supply dissipates quickly once off track.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1127
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/6/2018 5:42:06 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 37321
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online
Big Picture

As can be seen there were two areas of contention - the main one centred along the coast road and areas to the south, and the fighting around the Giarabub Oasis.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1128
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/6/2018 5:45:21 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 37321
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online
The fighting at Giarabub was pretty small scale and I (with hindsight) wasted two armoured regiments here.

One of the annoying features of the game is the impassable hexes that are passable to infantry only units. This is really annoying as most Italian units can use these features and are simply immune from attack unless the attacker is foot only.

The CW has few of these units of this type and its a real challenge to ensure that these small number of units are in the right place at the right time. This is a perfect example. I was able to make progress here until I came to the impassable hexes and found I'd sent too many lorried or motorised infantry to the area. devoncop wasn't to know it but I probably wasn't going to get much further here!




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/6/2018 6:01:59 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1129
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/6/2018 5:59:33 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 37321
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online
Reinforcements

There were no new units coming (and indeed there were still some withdrawals to come) but the CW had a number of replacements still to arrive - albeit their status was in many cases somewhat ropey!

I believe (although the wording could be clearer re the fall of Alexandria) that the Axis replacements had stopped with 14 turns left. I'd be interested to hear from devoncop on this.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/6/2018 6:00:04 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1130
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/6/2018 6:22:49 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 37321
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online
When I get time the last thing I will look at are some individual units. The great thing about a game like this is the immersion. I find myself really getting attached to certain units.

Edit: On reflection there is not much to say here. I can show the units within each division of brigade that remains but there is not much point in showing this. It would have been an idea perhaps to have a unit diary but then one can't be sure if the unit will survive!

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/14/2018 8:02:52 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1131
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/8/2018 1:45:04 AM   
MikeJ19


Posts: 1613
Joined: 1/29/2014
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
Warspite,

Neat stuff. You did a great job.

Mike

_____________________________

Mike

Retired Gunner

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1132
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/11/2018 6:15:20 AM   
Zap


Posts: 3181
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
Status: online
I enjoyed following. Where is your evaluation of game and scenario?

_____________________________


(in reply to MikeJ19)
Post #: 1133
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 6/11/2018 6:27:25 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 37321
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

I enjoyed following. Where is your evaluation of game and scenario?
warspite1

Thank-you. I will put something together soon.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Zap)
Post #: 1134
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