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different ways to defend vs Barbarossa

 
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different ways to defend vs Barbarossa - 1/5/2018 4:56:29 PM   
LLv34Mika


Posts: 148
Joined: 12/29/2017
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Hi everyone,

I asked myself what you prefer. I read about the Barbarossa thread and about entrenching some units every few hexes to slow down the Axis.

But now more details!

Do you set up strongpoints at Leningrad? Or do you prefer Moscow? Or Stalingrad? Two of three? All of them?

What do you research? Inf weapons is vital we know. What elese? intelligence? I like armor warfare but most tanks are just nice targets for German tactical bombers. Do you research for AT-guns? AA power or advanced aircraft? Both? Do you ignore anything?

So far I only played a few offline games to see what changed from SC2 and get used to the new game. Just had my first pbem game and terribly $%&&&% it up. (lost the british Island in 1940, won't happen again soon)

I just feel that I lack everything. When researching some more inf and building inf the German Stukas rip apart everything and when I build some tanks (not so cheap) I lack the manpower and as soon as some tanks are gone there is no big army left to defend. And when I research (and build) Inf, some tanks, some airpower, some AA,... then it is not enough in every category.

So far I couldn't find the best way. Of course all goes along with stong western allies that start distracting the Axis as soon as possible.

Just let me know what you usually prefer, what worked and what did end in a disaster.

Cheers
Mika
Post #: 1
RE: different ways to defend vs Barbarossa - 1/5/2018 5:54:19 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 323
Joined: 5/6/2017
Status: online
Hi,

This is my take

First you need to keep USSR => allies Diplomacy percent as high as possible prior to 1941. Allow French communists dont attack Finland with Brits etc

Additional Research 1) Inf weapons, 2)anti tank weapons. 3) Anti air weapons (level 2) , 4) Industrial tech (level 2), 5)Infantry warfare.

Also move existing troops that are far away from front (Army at Stalingrad etc) up. Move them dont operate them.

Prior to being invaded I only buy Corps & garrisons and get them entrenched. Put Armies in key cities where they can entrench more.

The object is to hold Moscow until Siberian troops arrive. The Winter of 41 will give you some time.

hope that helps,


Good Luck

(in reply to LLv34Mika)
Post #: 2
RE: different ways to defend vs Barbarossa - 1/7/2018 6:22:06 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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I agree mostly with PvtBenjamin. Probably the most important thing is keeping USSR mobilization as high as possible. In addition to what Private Benjamin says this means not accepting the revisions to the Pact and not annexing the Baltic States. The latter will not only prevent your USSR mobilization from decreasing it will also reposition the units that normally start in Latvia to the Ostrov area. This means they probably won't be destroyed by the initial German assault. Generally I don't even engage in the Winter War with Finland, but many consider this a mistake on my part.

I generally spend all my USSR MPPs on research until January 1941 and then switch to unit production.

For research I prioritize (in order) Infantry wpns, Spying and Intelligence, AA (to level 2), Infantry warfare, Command and Control, Advanced Tanks and Advanced Air. If I have chits in all of these (or have reached maximum desired/possible level) then I research Aerial Warfare, Ground Attack Wpns, Armored warfare, Long Range Aircraft, Artillery Wpns, Logistics, Production, Industrial and Mobility (Did I miss any?). The order in which I research the latter may depend on the game situation. For example, if I need another HQ in order to have all my units attached to an HQ but I have reached my maximum limit, than I will research logistics. I don't research AT as the only units that benefit from this are the few (I think it is 4) AT Units that the Russians receive. At higher levels they are very effective against Tanks, but I would rather spend my MPPs on something that will benefit more units more quickly.

AA increases the defence strength of your units (up to tech level 2) and it is very important that you research this to tech level 2 ASAP. Sometimes I will put a 2nd chit here to speed up this research. If your tanks have level 2 AA, are entrenched and have high efficiency (which means they are attached to an HQ) it will require far more enemy bombing attacks to destroy them.

Prior to Barbarossa I generally only build Corps and perhaps 1 or 2 AA. Armies, tanks and aircraft are too expensive and Corps are almost as good on defence as Armies. I personally don't build more than 1 or 2 garrisons as, in my opinion, they are nothing more than road bumps for the Axis and give him free experience. But I know others disagree.

< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 1/7/2018 6:25:45 PM >

(in reply to PvtBenjamin)
Post #: 3
RE: different ways to defend vs Barbarossa - 1/8/2018 12:02:57 AM   
Taxman66


Posts: 823
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
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I'm currently trying a different tact. Basically, the complete opposite of PvtBenjamin suggestions.
The USSR took as much land as possible with her DEs (though I might consider skipping the Polish border renegotiation next time.
I made France as tough as possible.
Germany didn't Declare War on Belgium and Russia's prewar Mobilization was around 14%; and yes this hurt her prep pretty hard.
However, Germany didn't declare Vichy until Late August 1940, and took lots of damage doing so (including getting 1 paratrooper shattered).
At a guess he lost 2-3 turns because of Belgium and going after the UK land units (shattering a UK Corps, and badly damaged the BEF).

What this did was:
a) Stopped a 1940 Sea Lion before it could start.
b) Reduced pre-Barbarossa German MPP.

The above caused secondary effects as well:
a) It quickly became clear that 1941 Sea Lion wasn't happening either. This let the UK go heavy in Egypt, while still leaving enough behind to stop or at badly drag out any 'Sea Lion without planes' attempt.

b) Meant Germany had to decide between either fewer German units, or fewer Tech buys (and it also delays Tech buying either way). My opponent went unit heavy and was late (and some very late) with Tech buys. He also didn't invest anything more in Diplo (after he spent 350 MPP between GE & IT on a failed Yugo attempt (UK blocked him with 250 MPP spent). He didn't send any additional help to Egypt, until it became obvious that the base DAK units weren't going to be enough. Then when he sent more (planes), they came in piece meal and only just stalled the offensive switching to the UK. Once Egypt was safe, the UK (as painful as it was and still is) sent the maximum to the USSR, and that is significant when you still hold the whole empire. Having said all that in the summer of 1942 it still feels like the USSR is on a knife's edge. However, I don't believe he can take more than 2 of: (Leningrad, Stalingrad, Moscow and the Caucuses), and certainly not all 4, before the weather turns again. His late Tech ups also meant the USSR was doing more damage (i.e. dinging his land units for a point or two more often, and while still coming out on bad end of air engagements was not getting outright crushed by being 2 levels behind in Air Tech at any point). In the meantime Italy is going to be in a heap ton of trouble as Libya is well on its way of falling and has lost a lot of units, particularly expensive ones.

Ru

_____________________________

"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 4
RE: different ways to defend vs Barbarossa - 1/8/2018 4:24:53 PM   
LLv34Mika


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Joined: 12/29/2017
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I always sent my special forces to Finland. There is not much to lose. If they arrive in time the Germans have to invest in diplomacy to bring the northern ally back to the Axis. And if they don't invest any chits they miss their units and the supplies. The worst case is that you get two units and the soviets stay calm. A win-win situation if you ask me.

About the baltic counties... both ways are fine. May be that I like it a bit better to annex the baltic states. You will get more MPPs every turn (not much, I know) but more important is that it makes the road to Leningrad much longer. It's not so easy to capture Leningrad in the first year.

I was a bit surprised that you suggest to invest in industrial tech as last tech of choice. I always want that one mobility point. It is almost impossible to start any counter attacks without that extra point. The German troops will block movement of too many units. And the industrial bonus is VERY powerful for Russia. Of course that means you have some units less. But only in the first or maybe second year. Then it should start to pay off. Or am I wrong about calculating the soviet industrial bonus? It should count for cities, mines and oil fields, correct? So every industrial tech should give you around 40 - 50MPP more every turn.

Cheers
Mika

(in reply to Taxman66)
Post #: 5
RE: different ways to defend vs Barbarossa - 1/8/2018 7:30:03 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 323
Joined: 5/6/2017
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Anglo French expeditionary force (DE204) costs 150MPP and has a 50% chance of success which leads to a 8-12% swing for USSR towards Axis and USSR gets no land. There is also substantial upside (special force, Finnish Diplomacy (+25-35%) and a boost to morale) with success. Germany will have to invest in Diplomacy for Finland to enter the war but USSR mobilization is substantially reduced.

In my message I listed my research in the order they are in the game. I research Industrial Tech (2) first. 2 chits =15% one 5%.

(in reply to LLv34Mika)
Post #: 6
RE: different ways to defend vs Barbarossa - 1/13/2018 9:27:31 PM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 1743
Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LLv34Mika

I always sent my special forces to Finland. There is not much to lose. If they arrive in time the Germans have to invest in diplomacy to bring the northern ally back to the Axis. And if they don't invest any chits they miss their units and the supplies. The worst case is that you get two units and the soviets stay calm. A win-win situation if you ask me.

My feeling on the Finnish expedition is the opposite, that it is lose/lose. If the expedition succeeds than Russian mobilization is significantly reduced; which means less production and later War Entry. In my opinion this more than offsets the swing in Finnish allegiance. And if it fails the 2 units are not worth the cost at that stage of the War.

quote:

About the baltic counties... both ways are fine. May be that I like it a bit better to annex the baltic states. You will get more MPPs every turn (not much, I know) but more important is that it makes the road to Leningrad much longer. It's not so easy to capture Leningrad in the first year.

Annexing the Baltic States reduces Russian mobilization, so I believe the net effect is that you get less MPPs not more. By moving your starting units out of harms way you gain more units to delay the Axis drive on Leningrad. Also as the Axis DOWs the Baltic States I believe this increases US Mobilization.


quote:

I was a bit surprised that you suggest to invest in industrial tech as last tech of choice. I always want that one mobility point. It is almost impossible to start any counter attacks without that extra point. The German troops will block movement of too many units. And the industrial bonus is VERY powerful for Russia. Of course that means you have some units less. But only in the first or maybe second year. Then it should start to pay off. Or am I wrong about calculating the soviet industrial bonus? It should count for cities, mines and oil fields, correct? So every industrial tech should give you around 40 - 50MPP more every turn.


Do you mean you invest in Russian "mobility" early or "industry" or both? I used to invest in both of these relatively early as well. But against a competent Axis player you will get few opportunities to counter attack anyway and upgrading a units mobility is very expensive. I prefer to use my Russian MPPS to build a greater number of slower units. Investing in Industry tech for Russia early is, IMHO, a false economy. Yes you will produce more MPPs, but since you probably did this at the expense of increasing one or more of your combat techs it means you will also take more casualties.








(in reply to LLv34Mika)
Post #: 7
RE: different ways to defend vs Barbarossa - 1/14/2018 6:02:39 AM   
LLv34Mika


Posts: 148
Joined: 12/29/2017
Status: offline
quote:

Do you mean you invest in Russian "mobility" early or "industry" or both? I used to invest in both of these relatively early as well. But against a competent Axis player you will get few opportunities to counter attack anyway and upgrading a units mobility is very expensive. I prefer to use my Russian MPPS to build a greater number of slower units. Investing in Industry tech for Russia early is, IMHO, a false economy. Yes you will produce more MPPs, but since you probably did this at the expense of increasing one or more of your combat techs it means you will also take more casualties.


Well, that is strange... that is more or less the only point that I was sure about. Increasing the industrial capacity by 10% with just 1 investment of 200 makes a huge difference pretty soon. You get what? Around 50MPPs more every turn as soon as GE declared war!? That means just 4 turns to pay off. I only wondered how much I should invest. Sure, having industrial tech 3 or more is nice but then your opinion is worth thinking about too. That would be 600 points in other techs. Could be infantry, anti air, modern fighters,... all that causing much more damage.

I think I would go for at least one, maybe two investments in industry. If you feel that the tide is turning you can still invest another point to make it a sure win in the long run. The other thing is, that if the USSR loses too much territory the higher industry tech compensates the losses of cities, mines and oilfields. At least a bit. So in the long run it is easier to rebuy shattered units and annoy the Axis with endless units popping up all the way to every city you defend.

Only finished 1 pbem game so far after playing SC2 for a long long long time. So I still have to try out different things.

Mika

_____________________________

"Oderint, dum metuant."

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 8
RE: different ways to defend vs Barbarossa - 1/17/2018 2:57:42 AM   
Leadwieght

 

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I always wait to invest in Russian mobility tech until after Barbarossa starts. I agree with HB, the Russians typically don't have much chance to counterattack in the first 12-18 months. I also don't bother to invest additional chits in Industrial Technology until later.

There's a lot of debate over the "quality vs. quantity" approach to build the Red Army before the Germans attack, ; I tend to favor quantity. Playing as the Russians in 1941, I like to force the German player to move into a cloud of Garrisons and Corps (with a few Armies at key cities). His aim is to apply massive force on narrow fronts along four axes of advance: 1. Riga/Ostrov/Leningrad, 2. Minsk/Smolensk/Moscow 3. Lwow/Kiev/Kursk or Byransk and 4. Odessa/Dnepro./Rostov. The Russian aim is to force the Germans to spread out and guard the flanks and supply lines of these spearheads. Even a bypassed Garrison can throw off the German timetable by cutting a rail link for a turn. Even one turn at zero supply for his forward units in July or August can cause him trouble later in autumn.

IMO, the absolute minimum must-have Russian techs by the time of the German attack are: Inf Warfare 1 Inf Weapons 1 (and working towards 2), Advanced Tanks 1 (working on 2) Armored Warfare 1, AA Level 1 (working on 2). By 1941, Russia will also have gotten the tech advances for which there were chits automatically invested in Sept 1939, but anything else, I'd spend on the "cloud."


(in reply to LLv34Mika)
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