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Semi OT: The Life and Death of the Scharnhorst - BBC 1971

 
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Semi OT: The Life and Death of the Scharnhorst - BBC 1971 - 1/4/2018 9:27:27 AM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

Semi OT: The Life and Death of the Scharnhorst - BBC 1971

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LVS-u26no


Few days ago it was anniversary of her last sortie!


BTW, I didn't know that the father of the Ludovic Kennedy (BBC presenter) was the captain of the HMS "Rawalpindi"...


Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: Semi OT: The Life and Death of the Scharnhorst - BB... - 1/4/2018 12:54:59 PM   
LeeChard

 

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Watched it and thought it was very good.

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RE: Semi OT: The Life and Death of the Scharnhorst - BB... - 1/4/2018 4:12:15 PM   
witpqs


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That was a great documentary, thanks Leo.

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RE: Semi OT: The Life and Death of the Scharnhorst - BB... - 1/4/2018 6:17:40 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

That was a great documentary, thanks Leo.


Old school documentary... I liked it very much as well...


Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: Semi OT: The Life and Death of the Scharnhorst - BB... - 1/4/2018 9:11:40 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

BTW, I didn't know that the father of the Ludovic Kennedy (BBC presenter) was the captain of the HMS "Rawalpindi"...


Leo "Apollo11"

Ludovic Kennedy is the author of "Pursuit - The Sinking of the Bismarck", a good read on a well covered story.
IIRC, he was the captain or an officer on one of the DDs that accompanied PoW and Hood so he could describe the Battle of Denmark Strait.
Also IIRC, his DD squadron tried to torpedo Bismarck on the night before her sinking. He said he did not think they got any hits. Later he describes how the DDs that stayed behind to rescue German sailors were bombed by the Luftwaffe and the big Tribal Class DD Mashona was sunk.

He was interviewed on a documentary about the discovery of Bismarck's final resting place by Dr. Ballard's submersibles. His take on the issue of whether the British or the Germans sank the Bismarck is that she was a shattered wreck on fire from end to end and was eventually going to sink regardless of scuttling efforts or not. His mixed emotions at the sinking of this "beautiful ship" and loss of so many of her crew were touching.

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RE: Semi OT: The Life and Death of the Scharnhorst - BB... - 1/5/2018 4:12:26 PM   
Zecke


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Thx Leon¡; as i can see and not the only one that think that the Scharnhorst is The German BB that i most like the ship and The Size.

Great DOC

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RE: Semi OT: The Life and Death of the Scharnhorst - BB... - 1/6/2018 4:57:52 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zecke

Thx Leon¡; as i can see and not the only one that think that the Scharnhorst is The German BB that i most like the ship and The Size.

Great DOC


Eh, under-gunned.


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RE: Semi OT: The Life and Death of the Scharnhorst - BB... - 1/6/2018 10:34:59 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zecke

Thx Leon¡; as i can see and not the only one that think that the Scharnhorst is The German BB that i most like the ship and The Size.

Great DOC


Eh, under-gunned.


They were designed as long-range commerce raiders, able to outrun anything the British could send after them, including Hood, Repulse and Renown. They were never intended to go toe-to-toe with capital ships. The designers and naval strategists in 1933 could not have known how radar and long-range search aircraft would become pivotal in finding and trapping such commerce raiders.

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau had some success at the start of the war but once the Allied radar and air search made the Atlantic too visible they were relegated to ports as a fleet in being. Hitler did not want Scharnhorst to go on her final sortie but the Grand Admiral (can't remember if Döenitz had taken over or if Raeder was still there) persuaded him that ambushing an Arctic convoy would help the Eastern front and boost Germany's morale. The Germans probably had better than usual intel on the convoy and thought they had the whole picture - i.e. they knew about the cruiser covering force but did not know about BB Duke of York's "distant cover" force.

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RE: Semi OT: The Life and Death of the Scharnhorst - BB... - 1/6/2018 11:30:56 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zecke

Thx Leon¡; as i can see and not the only one that think that the Scharnhorst is The German BB that i most like the ship and The Size.

Great DOC


Eh, under-gunned.


They were designed as long-range commerce raiders, able to outrun anything the British could send after them, including Hood, Repulse and Renown. They were never intended to go toe-to-toe with capital ships. The designers and naval strategists in 1933 could not have known how radar and long-range search aircraft would become pivotal in finding and trapping such commerce raiders.

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau had some success at the start of the war but once the Allied radar and air search made the Atlantic too visible they were relegated to ports as a fleet in being. Hitler did not want Scharnhorst to go on her final sortie but the Grand Admiral (can't remember if Döenitz had taken over or if Raeder was still there) persuaded him that ambushing an Arctic convoy would help the Eastern front and boost Germany's morale. The Germans probably had better than usual intel on the convoy and thought they had the whole picture - i.e. they knew about the cruiser covering force but did not know about BB Duke of York's "distant cover" force.

There was also pressure to do something to help the troops on the eastern front.
Raeder was kicked upstairs in January 43.

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Post #: 9
RE: Semi OT: The Life and Death of the Scharnhorst - BB... - 1/7/2018 5:43:09 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

They were designed as long-range commerce raiders,


Expensive design for a commerce raider. Thirty thousand something tons to sink a Maru, fiddle faddle. How many subs is that?

< Message edited by rustysi -- 1/8/2018 2:07:36 PM >


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Zorch)
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RE: Semi OT: The Life and Death of the Scharnhorst - BB... - 1/7/2018 10:06:41 PM   
Denniss

 

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Commerce raiders were not only to sink enemy shipping but also forcing the enemy to use many of its naval ships to search for them and to escort convoys.
Vs subs you just need a lot of DDs and smaller vessels to escort convoys, vs large ships you either need lots of cruisers or a battleship with limited amount of cruisers

(in reply to rustysi)
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RE: Semi OT: The Life and Death of the Scharnhorst - BB... - 1/8/2018 8:23:50 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Commerce raiders were not only to sink enemy shipping but also forcing the enemy to use many of its naval ships to search for them and to escort convoys.
Vs subs you just need a lot of DDs and smaller vessels to escort convoys, vs large ships you either need lots of cruisers or a battleship with limited amount of cruisers


I would argue that building 4 BBs was too few to challenge any power and at the same time way too many for simple "fleet in being". Just Scharnhost + Gneisenau would had done it.

But this of course with the benefit of foresight

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 1/8/2018 8:24:20 PM >

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RE: Semi OT: The Life and Death of the Scharnhorst - BB... - 1/8/2018 8:59:55 PM   
Denniss

 

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quote:

On 5 October, the British and French navies formed eight groups to hunt down Admiral Graf Spee in the South Atlantic. The British aircraft carriers HMS Hermes, Eagle, and Ark Royal, the French aircraft carrier Béarn, the British battlecruiser Renown, and French battleships Dunkerque and Strasbourg, and 16 cruisers were committed to the hunt.
That was only for the heavy cruiser Admiral Graf Spee ....

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RE: Semi OT: The Life and Death of the Scharnhorst - BB... - 1/9/2018 12:13:31 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

quote:

On 5 October, the British and French navies formed eight groups to hunt down Admiral Graf Spee in the South Atlantic. The British aircraft carriers HMS Hermes, Eagle, and Ark Royal, the French aircraft carrier Béarn, the British battlecruiser Renown, and French battleships Dunkerque and Strasbourg, and 16 cruisers were committed to the hunt.
That was only for the heavy cruiser Admiral Graf Spee ....

Graf Spee was of the SW coast of Africa when her float plane spotted a French TF with Dunkerque or Strasbourg just over the horizon. Capt. Langsdorf immediately set course for the SE coast of South America!

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RE: Semi OT: The Life and Death of the Scharnhorst - BB... - 1/9/2018 8:19:02 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Commerce raiders were not only to sink enemy shipping but also forcing the enemy to use many of its naval ships to search for them and to escort convoys.
Vs subs you just need a lot of DDs and smaller vessels to escort convoys, vs large ships you either need lots of cruisers or a battleship with limited amount of cruisers


I would argue that building 4 BBs was too few to challenge any power and at the same time way too many for simple "fleet in being". Just Scharnhost + Gneisenau would had done it.

But this of course with the benefit of foresight
warspite1

Of course the Germans did not specifically build 4 capital ships for either purpose. These ships were part of a general naval re-armament plan, and later the repudiation of the Treaty of Versailles with the implementation of the Anglo-German Naval Agreement.

Hitler believed that Britain could be placated and he wasn't going to make the same 'mistake' as the Kaiser and threaten Britain's naval dominance and provoke her to war.

When it became clear the Britain was not going to play ball the fanciful Plan Z came into being. Raeder was told there would be no general war until 1944. But events took a different path, Hitler could not wait, and the British and French drew a line in the sand at Poland.

Thus the Germans went to war with what they had, not what they planned to have. As for the war, the surface fleet were pretty unsuccessful in terms of tonnage sunk, but they did achieve results as a fleet in being and the Admiralty felt forced to keep capital ships at Scapa to cover off this menace. This was a god-send for the Regia Marina.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 1/9/2018 8:20:07 AM >


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RE: Semi OT: The Life and Death of the Scharnhorst - BB... - 1/9/2018 8:49:30 AM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Commerce raiders were not only to sink enemy shipping but also forcing the enemy to use many of its naval ships to search for them and to escort convoys.
Vs subs you just need a lot of DDs and smaller vessels to escort convoys, vs large ships you either need lots of cruisers or a battleship with limited amount of cruisers


I would argue that building 4 BBs was too few to challenge any power and at the same time way too many for simple "fleet in being". Just Scharnhost + Gneisenau would had done it.

But this of course with the benefit of foresight
warspite1

Of course the Germans did not specifically build 4 capital ships for either purpose. These ships were part of a general naval re-armament plan, and later the repudiation of the Treaty of Versailles with the implementation of the Anglo-German Naval Agreement.

Hitler believed that Britain could be placated and he wasn't going to make the same 'mistake' as the Kaiser and threaten Britain's naval dominance and provoke her to war.

When it became clear the Britain was not going to play ball the fanciful Plan Z came into being. Raeder was told there would be no general war until 1944. But events took a different path, Hitler could not wait, and the British and French drew a line in the sand at Poland.

Thus the Germans went to war with what they had, not what they planned to have. As for the war, the surface fleet were pretty unsuccessful in terms of tonnage sunk, but they did achieve results as a fleet in being and the Admiralty felt forced to keep capital ships at Scapa to cover off this menace. This was a god-send for the Regia Marina.


Ahh... Italians in the Med...

BTW, with what we know nowadays, it seems that Germans (with the Enigma) "helped" the Royal Navy much more than the Regia Marina... God knows how things would turn if Bletchley Park was not involved...


Leo "Apollo11"

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Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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