Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

What to do with Axis navy?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Strategic Command Series >> Strategic Command WWII War in Europe >> What to do with Axis navy? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
What to do with Axis navy? - 1/1/2018 12:47:13 AM   
MarkWayneClark

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 7/22/2008
Status: offline
I have searched this topic with every term I know, and not found advice.

As Axis, it seems my navy is worthless. It can raid, but the instant it comes in contact with an allied surface ship, it is dead.

Capital ships especially seem worthless. Take them out of port and they are sunk the instant they are discovered. The allied navy is massive and can be anywhere in force in an instant.

What should I do with my navy? Just leave it in port and play this like a land game?

Thanks.
Post #: 1
RE: What to do with Axis navy? - 1/1/2018 1:06:31 AM   
MarkWayneClark

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 7/22/2008
Status: offline
Let me be more specific: everything but the subs are worthless. The German destroyers cannot make a dent against Allied subs, and if your try, will be quickly destroyed by Allied capital ships the following turn. It takes ~4 German capital ships to sink even one Allied destroyer, and once you've done that, your ships will be 100% surrounded by the Allied navy on the following turn and at least half will be sunk.

I don't understand what I am supposed to do with this fleet, except just leave it in port.

Or is there a value in sinking what of the Allied navy you can, knowing that you are going to lose your entire surface fleet in the process? And then you just don't replace it? So its value is (more or less) as a one-shot kamikaze fleet?

(in reply to MarkWayneClark)
Post #: 2
RE: What to do with Axis navy? - 1/1/2018 1:08:06 AM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1110
Joined: 2/4/2017
Status: offline
If Sealion is not in the card then yeah it's best used as a fleet in being. And to clear the baltic of Russian raiders.

Italian can make a play in the med but their fleet need some major refitting and teching before they can have a fighting chance. Will probably need german air for protection (and subs if you can spare some)

< Message edited by KorutZelva -- 1/1/2018 1:10:41 AM >

(in reply to MarkWayneClark)
Post #: 3
RE: What to do with Axis navy? - 1/1/2018 1:19:32 AM   
MarkWayneClark

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 7/22/2008
Status: offline
No matter what, any time you take a German surface ship out to engage an allied ship, it is dead the next turn. Is the game supposed to be this way? Seems unbalanced to me to have a whole aspect of the game be unplayable, but I am not the most sophisticated wargamer, so what do I know.

I can say, however, that from a gameplay perspective, this completely sucks. They might as well not have a naval game at all.

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 4
RE: What to do with Axis navy? - 1/1/2018 4:08:28 AM   
Vichyssoise

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 7/15/2009
Status: offline
A few elements of answer in this thread, although not Axis specific. But some advice/general principles work for both sides.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4366071

I've played only against the AI so far. I've had my fair share of success and... disaster of Invincible Armada proportion.
Without any investment in naval techs, the Axis navies better stay in port.

(in reply to MarkWayneClark)
Post #: 5
RE: What to do with Axis navy? - 1/1/2018 12:18:35 PM   
xwormwood


Posts: 845
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: Bremen, Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkWayneClark

No matter what, any time you take a German surface ship out to engage an allied ship, it is dead the next turn. Is the game supposed to be this way? Seems unbalanced to me to have a whole aspect of the game be unplayable, but I am not the most sophisticated wargamer, so what do I know.

I can say, however, that from a gameplay perspective, this completely sucks. They might as well not have a naval game at all.


If you sneak some german ships into the Atlantic and randomly use one of them on different convoy lines you can give your opponent some headaches. You can even surprise him with a waiting task force where he suspected to find a single CA.

On the other hand you can use your fleet to lure out the allied ships near the Axis coast, only to hammer them with you combined air fleets.

_____________________________

"You will be dead, so long as you refuse to die" (George MacDonald)

(in reply to MarkWayneClark)
Post #: 6
RE: What to do with Axis navy? - 1/1/2018 1:14:40 PM   
majpalmer

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 11/28/2014
Status: offline
One thing I have learned is to alternate attacks by subs and surface raiders. In other words, don't attack a convoy route and stay there or move along it. Soon as you hit the route, the Allied ships will converge. So raid, and then move off the route for a turn, and then raid again the following turn. This is especially true for the surface raiders. You basically waste every other turn, but in the long run your ships will survive much, much longer.

I use my surface ships in the Baltic to deal with the Russians after Barbarossa.

After the Russians are dealt with, I'll move a sub and a surface raider to Norwegian ports. I'll send the sub way up north. The surface raider I'll sortie from a Norwegian port and raid the UK-USSR convoy route. Same routine as before. Raid one turn and then retire to port the next.

The key when you raid is to not hang around. Hit and run. I'm not saying its realistic, but it works best. If you hit a convoy route and hit it again, assume the destroyers are on their way.

Also, never move ALONG a convoy route. Move adjacent to it and then onto it. Moving along a route is the best way to run into enemy destroyers.

_____________________________


(in reply to xwormwood)
Post #: 7
RE: What to do with Axis navy? - 1/1/2018 3:05:21 PM   
MarkWayneClark

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 7/22/2008
Status: offline
Thanks for all this.

Some of this I have been doing. That is, I spread the subs out and move them every turn. They do take damage but they don't tend to get out-and-out sunk. When the damage is severe and/or supply is low, I return them to port to recover. That works reasonably well.

The capital ships are just sitting ducks. Without building any, I end up with seven (a few are already in the queue when the game starts). I simply cannot figure out what to do with them. Any time I take them out, they are found quickly and once found, they are invariably dead the next turn. The Royal Navy is simply immense and can swarm me anywhere.

If I am hearing you all correctly, I should never take capital ships into the Atlantic. North Sea and Baltic only. Is that right?

< Message edited by MarkWayneClark -- 1/1/2018 3:06:42 PM >

(in reply to majpalmer)
Post #: 8
RE: What to do with Axis navy? - 1/2/2018 5:11:58 PM   
majpalmer

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 11/28/2014
Status: offline
That's about it.

One time I did use the German surface fleet in the North Atlantic was in a game when I invaded and conquered Britain--Sea Lion. Along the way the Luftwaffe had sunk quite a few British surface units. The RN then withdrew to Canada.When they returned, I had my surface fleet, the Luftwaffe, and a bunch of U-boats waiting for them .

Another was when the Allies invaded France in 1943. I was winning in Russia and poured reinforcements, land and air, into France. My air did a job on the Allied surface forces, to the extent that I did ultimately bring my surface fleet into the Channel with success.

But I have used on raider in the southern sector, and two from Norwegian ports against the USSR convoy.

That's about it.



_____________________________


(in reply to MarkWayneClark)
Post #: 9
RE: What to do with Axis navy? - 1/2/2018 6:13:03 PM   
James Taylor

 

Posts: 394
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Corpus Christi, Texas
Status: offline
Simply speaking, until the RN is weakened significantly, only use the surface KM under the cover of the Luftwaffe.

_____________________________

SeaMonkey

(in reply to majpalmer)
Post #: 10
RE: What to do with Axis navy? - 1/2/2018 6:24:30 PM   
Leadwieght

 

Posts: 327
Joined: 2/23/2017
Status: offline
Hi Mark,

There's a MAJOR difference playing the AI vs. playing a human, especially with regards to the naval game. The Allied naval AI can be quite predictable and dumb and will often allow you to pick off capital ships while it fruitlessly pursues a sub.

Playing the Kriegsmarine against a human is MUCH harder, but here are some things that have worked for me.

First of all, if you want to do some mischief early in the war, then don't forget CRUISE MODE. Because Britain is not a war with Germany on turn 1, you can cruise your fleet out into the wastes of the North Atlantic without getting ambushed by the Home Fleet at Scapa Floe. Your ships can whip right by them and they won't even see you. Leave your destroyers at home with one CA, take the BCs and your subs to the western Atlantic (send the BCs as far as they can go, use the subs to form a screen between the BDs and Scapa, in case your opponent suspects what you're up to. Once in the Atlantic, the BCs and SSs can meet up with the other CA. Wait a few turns until the weather is likely to be stormy (no carrier attacks). Put two subs onto the convoy route, leaving your surface ships 4-5 hexes away--no further. An orthodox Allied player will sweep the convoy route with DDs. With any luck, a DD will run into a sub, and take some damage and stop (if it doesn't get stopped outright--it will not be far away--there's a big AP loss for being ambushed. On your turn (assuming the weather is stormy--if it's calm, then keep your distance), switch the sub that got hit to Silent mode and use to scout around the Allied DD. If there's no significant Allied assest, then whack the DD with your surface ships (you may be able to finish it off with your silent sub, retreat the surface ships and place a sub or two between them and the likely direction of any Allied counterattack. I have managed to sink 1 or 2 DDs without loss by early 1940.

Second, if you want to be able to continue playing a viable naval game as the Axis beyond 1940, I think (though others may differ) you have to bite the bullet and grab Iceland. This means attacking Denmark in 1939 and sneaking a Transport out to sea to be ready to land at Reykjavik. This US will get mad, but you will have a mid-Atlantic base. You can also use Greenland ports for re-fueling until they become US territory in April 1941.

It's true that the Kriegsmarine cannot go head-to-head with the whole Royal Navy, but if you patiently practice commerce warfare and what German naval strategists called "Kleinekrieg" you can make a significant contribution to your overall goals.

Sorry for the long post. Snow day.

(in reply to majpalmer)
Post #: 11
RE: What to do with Axis navy? - 1/3/2018 12:23:36 AM   
MarkWayneClark

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 7/22/2008
Status: offline
Appreciate all the insight.

Thanks, everyone!

(in reply to Leadwieght)
Post #: 12
RE: What to do with Axis navy? - 1/6/2018 1:32:41 AM   
MarkWayneClark

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 7/22/2008
Status: offline
It seems like the RN has a battleship on every hex! I don't know how you guys do this.

(in reply to MarkWayneClark)
Post #: 13
RE: What to do with Axis navy? - 1/9/2018 7:39:20 PM   
Christolos


Posts: 531
Joined: 4/24/2014
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline
One of the issues I am finding, and this has been discussed before (but I can't find the threads...but they refer to the French Fleet being used in kamikaze mode), is the ease with which the French navy together with the British navy, can make short order of the Italian fleet in the med, no matter how well the Italians try to hide their ships. This of course is not helped with the recently discovered Italian fleet visibility bug discussed here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4414971

Update:

I found the threads I was thinking about:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4320651
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4261146&mpage=1&key=french%2Ckamikaze�
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4222333&mpage=1&key=french%2Cfleet�

C

< Message edited by Christolos -- 1/9/2018 8:02:24 PM >


_____________________________

“Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.”

-Aristotle-

(in reply to MarkWayneClark)
Post #: 14
RE: What to do with Axis navy? - 1/10/2018 12:28:00 PM   
OxfordGuy3


Posts: 721
Joined: 7/1/2012
From: Oxford, United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Christolos

One of the issues I am finding, and this has been discussed before (but I can't find the threads...but they refer to the French Fleet being used in kamikaze mode), is the ease with which the French navy together with the British navy, can make short order of the Italian fleet in the med, no matter how well the Italians try to hide their ships. This of course is not helped with the recently discovered Italian fleet visibility bug discussed here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4414971

Update:

I found the threads I was thinking about:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4320651
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4261146&mpage=1&key=french%2Ckamikaze�
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4222333&mpage=1&key=french%2Cfleet�

C


I've found this a problem too, though have figured out some ways to mitigate it e.g. if the Italian Navy is concentrated at the top of the Adriatic, you can make carrier air attacks by the RN costly by placing on Italian and (when the Italians join the war) one German AA next to as many ships/ports as possible and also base the Italian FTR and bomber near there and perhaps send a German fighter there too, when Italy joins.

Also maybe research AA and bump up the AA values of the key ports?

I still think that no naval unit except carriers or subs should be able to damage a fleet in port ever (not that the chance is high anyway).

(in reply to Christolos)
Post #: 15
RE: What to do with Axis navy? - 1/10/2018 12:41:40 PM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1110
Joined: 2/4/2017
Status: offline
I find that ships in harbor are pretty safe from capital ships. Carriers can inflict good damage but are risky and expensive to use. Ships raised to str 10 should survive all but heavy concentrated fire. If you have intercepting fighters, the carriers will have to use a mixed force to prevent heavy losses and will cut the amount of sortie possible.

(in reply to OxfordGuy3)
Post #: 16
RE: What to do with Axis navy? - 1/10/2018 6:23:51 PM   
Christolos


Posts: 531
Joined: 4/24/2014
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline
Ships in harbour are pretty safe from ships other than subs and aircraft carriers. I agree that carriers should be able to damage ships in port (like the British raid of Taranto in November 1940) but maybe subs have it too easy when attacking ships anchored in port..., I'm not sure.

I also agree that there are things the Axis can do to mitigate attacks on the Italians in port, but the big issue right now is that the Allies can scout out where the Italians are in port (for carrier and sub attacks) because of the Italian naval visibility bug described here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4414971
I know this is fixed for the next update, but we will have to live with it for now...

C

_____________________________

“Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.”

-Aristotle-

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 17
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Strategic Command Series >> Strategic Command WWII War in Europe >> What to do with Axis navy? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.115