Bottlenecks? Oh those bottlenecks! SierraJuliet (J) vs Mundy (A)

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

Post Reply
User avatar
SierraJuliet
Posts: 2319
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:40 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Bottlenecks? Oh those bottlenecks! SierraJuliet (J) vs Mundy (A)

Post by SierraJuliet »

So here I am diving off the deep end. I hate diving. Not prone to frolicking in water too much either. I do, however, digress. Mundy has been patiently throwing a line out for some time now (… fishing. Also, not on my list of favourite past times) casting for an opponent to take him on in LargeSlowTarget's Bottlenecks Mod. Since my last game with Tocaff wrapped up I’ve been a little removed from AE. Travel is my excuse. I was thinking of getting a game up and going next year but Mundy’s persistence has won out. A little peek at what LST has offered in this Mod and it is intriguing. Reminds me of what first attracted me to Pac War… the chance to put yourself in the shoes of the great and famous and see if you could do better. This Mod looks like it will do just that. Pearl Harbour and the first up aerial attacks and beach landings of 7/8 December are hard coded in. We take over as Pearl Harbour burns and Kimmel rips off his Admiral insignia.

What is there to like about this Mod. No full Sir Robin, Fortress Palembang, Mersing Gambit, Manila Sub Slaughter or first turn deep invasions! Civilian units, blockade runners, U-Boats, Doolittle Raiders, the Thai Airforce and Navy plus lots more.

What to get used to. Slowed down ops tempo and the brakes are on for production and decreased shipping availability. No more Japanese merchant shipping sitting idle I expect. Expect to see me under the hammer straight away.

Here’s to a most intriguing MOD from LST. And thanks Mundy for taking me on.

Now to find out just what I have here and work out a plan of attack.
Kido Butai, although powerful, was a raiding force, and this is exactly how the Japanese understood its usage. 'Shattered Sword'
User avatar
SierraJuliet
Posts: 2319
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:40 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Scratch one xAK

Post by SierraJuliet »

I do admire the detail that has gone into this MOD. Sitting offshore from Kota Bhura is xAK Awazisan Maru. Historically subject of a successful bombing attack here she is in the game aflame from end to end. She is still afloat, but her damage stats read 90 90 90 90!!!! A most thoroughly depressing find even though accurate.
Kido Butai, although powerful, was a raiding force, and this is exactly how the Japanese understood its usage. 'Shattered Sword'
User avatar
BBfanboy
Posts: 19692
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:36 pm
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Contact:

RE: Scratch one xAK

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: SierraJuliet

I do admire the detail that has gone into this MOD. Sitting offshore from Kota Bhura is xAK Awazisan Maru. Historically subject of a successful bombing attack here she is in the game aflame from end to end. She is still afloat, but her damage stats read 90 90 90 90!!!! A most thoroughly depressing find even though accurate.
Does this scenario start on Dec. 8th? When did that ship get bombed historically?
Can you provide a link to the scenario so we can read up on it?
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
User avatar
Lowpe
Posts: 24063
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:25 pm

RE: Scratch one xAK

Post by Lowpe »

This scenario is mind boggling good, but still needs polishing I think. Out of them all, I like the slower philosophy, the civilians, the gawd awful mess that is China, so much![&o]

Whole new tactics needed for it....like rescuing civilians.[;)]

It is so cool!. I have not looked at this latest version so perhaps the polishing is done!
User avatar
Mundy
Posts: 2867
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2002 6:12 am
Location: Neenah

RE: Scratch one xAK

Post by Mundy »

BB, it does start on Dec 7, but assumes the Pearl Harbor attack has happened already, and KB is something like 10 hexes north of Hawaii. Almost Dec 8, but not quite. I'm not sure this was necessary for this game, but it is what it is. No Manila first option here...

I'm not sure how many or if SJ has any of the super-moving task forces here.

Looking forward to this. Steve's coming out as a cool guy to know.

My other attempt at this was with another Wisconsin guy and we were cranking out 5-7 turns a day before that ended. With our 16 hour time difference, I doubt that will happen here.
Image
User avatar
SierraJuliet
Posts: 2319
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:40 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

RE: Scratch one xAK

Post by SierraJuliet »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: SierraJuliet

I do admire the detail that has gone into this MOD. Sitting offshore from Kota Bhura is xAK Awazisan Maru. Historically subject of a successful bombing attack here she is in the game aflame from end to end. She is still afloat, but her damage stats read 90 90 90 90!!!! A most thoroughly depressing find even though accurate.
Does this scenario start on Dec. 8th? When did that ship get bombed historically?
Can you provide a link to the scenario so we can read up on it?
Have a look in Scenario Design and Modding and then look in the folder Scenarios available for WitP AE. You will find it towards the end of the Grand Campaign Scenarios. Just look for Bottlenecks in slot 49 and the link is there. I haven't added link provision in my messages to my skill base yet. :(

My understanding is that we finish off the last part of the 7 December turn with restrictions on what can fly. After this first truncated turn it will be back to business as usual as far as turns are concerned.

I would have to defer to references but I'm certain that Awazisan was the unhappy recipient of Allied presents on the morning of 8 December local time.
Kido Butai, although powerful, was a raiding force, and this is exactly how the Japanese understood its usage. 'Shattered Sword'
User avatar
SierraJuliet
Posts: 2319
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:40 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

RE: Scratch one xAK

Post by SierraJuliet »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

This scenario is mind boggling good, but still needs polishing I think. Out of them all, I like the slower philosophy, the civilians, the gawd awful mess that is China, so much![&o]

Whole new tactics needed for it....like rescuing civilians.[;)]

It is so cool!. I have not looked at this latest version so perhaps the polishing is done!
Trying so hard to cope with my boggled mind. There is most likely unpolished pitfalls but given the detail of this Mod they will simply become part of the interest in dealing with the altered reality of Japan's folly.

New tactics needed everywhere. I dread to contemplate just how hard this Mod will be on cranking out planes etc.
Kido Butai, although powerful, was a raiding force, and this is exactly how the Japanese understood its usage. 'Shattered Sword'
User avatar
SierraJuliet
Posts: 2319
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:40 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

RE: Scratch one xAK

Post by SierraJuliet »

ORIGINAL: Mundy

BB, it does start on Dec 7, but assumes the Pearl Harbor attack has happened already, and KB is something like 10 hexes north of Hawaii. Almost Dec 8, but not quite. I'm not sure this was necessary for this game, but it is what it is. No Manila first option here...

I'm not sure how many or if SJ has any of the super-moving task forces here.

Looking forward to this. Steve's coming out as a cool guy to know.

My other attempt at this was with another Wisconsin guy and we were cranking out 5-7 turns a day before that ended. With our 16 hour time difference, I doubt that will happen here.
Thanks Ed. No doubt you will trade notes with Todd to work out what I am like on the battle board.

5-7 turns a day. In my dreams as I'm sure my real life would crucify me if I became so wantonly attached to this game. :)

Kido Butai, although powerful, was a raiding force, and this is exactly how the Japanese understood its usage. 'Shattered Sword'
User avatar
Mundy
Posts: 2867
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2002 6:12 am
Location: Neenah

RE: Scratch one xAK

Post by Mundy »

I was unemployed for 11 months, so I had time on my hands. It would be more difficult now.
Image
User avatar
SierraJuliet
Posts: 2319
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:40 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

RE: Scratch one xAK

Post by SierraJuliet »

ORIGINAL: Mundy

I was unemployed for 11 months, so I had time on my hands. It would be more difficult now.
Touché. I'd take the job over cranking out turns.
Kido Butai, although powerful, was a raiding force, and this is exactly how the Japanese understood its usage. 'Shattered Sword'
User avatar
SierraJuliet
Posts: 2319
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:40 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Rules

Post by SierraJuliet »

Ed and I are thrashing out the rules. LST provides are number of optional rules which if we go with them will further reduce the speed of operations.

Can’t help but having a straight up look at KB to see how things fare after Pearl Harbour. The status of our birds and pilot numbers is below. Planes in bracket are reserve planes. Pilot numbers are in bold.

A6M2 Pilots B3A1 Pilots B5N2 Pilots

Kaga 9/5 14 5/16 21 15/7 (3)25
Soryu 9/6 (3) 18 3/13 16 15/3 18
Hiryu 12/5 (3)20 6/10 16 17/1 18
Shokaku 16/2 18 19/8 27 18/9 27
Zuikaku 16/2 18 17/9 26 20/7 27
Akagi 13/4 (3)20 2/12 14 20/7 30

108 fighter pilots, 120 dive bomber pilots and 145 torpedo bomber pilots at the ready. The planes being repaired/maintained will be ready for action tomorrow. Once the spares have been assembled every pilot has a plane. Not too shabby a force to wield. Probably something for LST to review but it appears that all carriers have a full complement of torpedoes available to them. Perhaps we stuffed the carriers to the gills with torps for the Pearl raid. As you can see KB is already below full strength. I think this is going to be difficult assignment to get KB to full strength and maintain it that way.

Screen shot attached of the damage reports from ships at Pearl Harbour. 2 battleships sunk and 2 out for a very long time.


Image
Attachments
PearlHarb..Results.jpg
PearlHarb..Results.jpg (125.46 KiB) Viewed 1316 times
Kido Butai, although powerful, was a raiding force, and this is exactly how the Japanese understood its usage. 'Shattered Sword'
User avatar
SierraJuliet
Posts: 2319
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:40 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

China

Post by SierraJuliet »

China is quite something. There are many low value units (2 AV) clogging up the fields. Adding to the complicating factors is the necessity of maintaining a 10 AV (minimum) garrison on most every captured hex.

My early thoughts are that if I want to achieve anything in China I will have to bottle up and leave larges areas of land to the Chinese. For example, in the screen shot below, you can see that the game is already pre-loaded with Japanese units controlling all the rail hexes just outside of the blue line. For the time being I think this lot are best left to their own devices. I can’t afford to garrison all those hexes and put together a meaningful attack on some other vector. Hopefully a Chinese back water whilst I turn my attention elsewhere.


Image
Attachments
ChinaUnit..eginning.jpg
ChinaUnit..eginning.jpg (368.31 KiB) Viewed 1315 times
Kido Butai, although powerful, was a raiding force, and this is exactly how the Japanese understood its usage. 'Shattered Sword'
User avatar
LargeSlowTarget
Posts: 4800
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Hessen, Germany - now living in France

RE: China

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

Thank you for playtesting my mod. I'll will follow both AARs in order to pick up stuff to correct and to explain mod features when I feel it is necessary. One thing to "polish" is the torpedo availability on KB - good find, haven't thought about that.

The scenario starts on Dec 7th in the afternoon. This is to avoid ahistorical openings like the "Manila sub slaughter" which IMO is a hindsight exploit. Of course the game will digress from history, but I wanted to set the opening stage as historically accurate as possible. The war started with the PH strike, so in the game KB is where it belongs, off Hawaii, and the historical damage done since strike results in the game can vary a lot.

In China, Japan managed to hold "points and lines" - the population centres and major communication lines, but they were too weak to control the vast rural areas. My mod reflects this. The Chinese low-value units in the countryside are mostly static "civilian administration" units whose role is to prevent the auto-switching of the dots to the Japanese side - but some dots contain guerilla units which may move to block your LOCs. So watch your six!
User avatar
SierraJuliet
Posts: 2319
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:40 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

RE: China

Post by SierraJuliet »

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Thank you for playtesting my mod. I'll will follow both AARs in order to pick up stuff to correct and to explain mod features when I feel it is necessary. One thing to "polish" is the torpedo availability on KB - good find, haven't thought about that.

The scenario starts on Dec 7th in the afternoon. This is to avoid ahistorical openings like the "Manila sub slaughter" which IMO is a hindsight exploit. Of course the game will digress from history, but I wanted to set the opening stage as historically accurate as possible. The war started with the PH strike, so in the game KB is where it belongs, off Hawaii, and the historical damage done since strike results in the game can vary a lot.

In China, Japan managed to hold "points and lines" - the population centres and major communication lines, but they were too weak to control the vast rural areas. My mod reflects this. The Chinese low-value units in the countryside are mostly static "civilian administration" units whose role is to prevent the auto-switching of the dots to the Japanese side - but some dots contain guerilla units which may move to block your LOCs. So watch your six!
It is a privilege to do so. I hope I give it a fair showing. You should pick up heaps from dropping in on both AARs.

I think I am liking this historical start although I have a fair amount of trepidation going on as to how best protect my transports from Force Z and aerial assault. Hitting Pearl is one thing but with no option available to send a couple of carriers to cover the Malay landings I am feeling quite exposed. If Awazisan Maru is the only loss I will consider it a successful landing.

I think you have done a magnificent job of encouraging the Japanese player to play China like it was in real life. I am very quickly dispensing with any idea of controlling those vast rural areas. Holding points and lines is going to be my mantra in China. Yes my 6 is going to need plenty of watching.
Kido Butai, although powerful, was a raiding force, and this is exactly how the Japanese understood its usage. 'Shattered Sword'
User avatar
SierraJuliet
Posts: 2319
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:40 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Inland Ports

Post by SierraJuliet »


LST. After some clarification on strategic movement and inland ports. I follow that there must be an uninterrupted string of port SPS size bases existing along the intended route. And for example, if the inland port has an SPS of 3, it must be built to 3 before strategic rail movement is allowed in that hex.

So, for example if I am looking at the rail route from Shanghai to Suchow we have the following bases with ports at commencement of the game.

Shanghai 8(8)
Soochow 0(3)
Nanking 4(3)
Pukow 2(5)
Pengpu 2(5)
Huaishang 1(4)
91/48 0(3)
Suchow 0(3)

The only ports currently meeting the level required is Shanghai and Nanking. All others will have to have their port built up to their SPS before the hex can be utilized for strategic mode travel? Is my understanding of how to proceed correct.
Kido Butai, although powerful, was a raiding force, and this is exactly how the Japanese understood its usage. 'Shattered Sword'
User avatar
LargeSlowTarget
Posts: 4800
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Hessen, Germany - now living in France

RE: Inland Ports

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

The concept of strings of inland ports build to SPS size before strat movemnt is allowed is valid for non-operational railways, i.e. existing lines that have been destroyed by the retreating Chinese and yet-to-be-build lines like the Burma-Thailand "Death Railway". If you use the map I have provided, you can identify them by the black-grey dotted lines.

The Shanghai - Suchow RR has been in Japanese hands for a long time and is considered repaired and operational, so you can use it without building ports. The port SPS size on operational lines is there to give the option to raise the supply cap by simulating the construction of improvements on the line which increase capacity, like double track or additional sidings, switching yards, upgrading the track, signaling devices etc. - if you chose to invest the construction engineers and supplies necessary.

EDIT: Note that there are no bridges between Nanking and Pukow (first Nanking-Yangtze bridge was build in the 1960s) and between Pengpu and Huaishang (flood area of the re-routed Yellow river), so strat movement needs to be interrupted and the rivers crossed in movement mode, simulation ferry operations.

EDIT2: Note on the screenshot the darker blue color of the Yangtze and part of the Pearl river - these stretches of rivers are navigable by small crafts like the sampans, junks and gun boats both sides have. Ocean-going vessel up to 15k tons can reach Hankow. Might help with supplying front bases like Ichang and Nanchang.
On a side note, I think with some redeployment of forces, Japan can still launch a limited offensive in China, for example against Changsha.

Image
Attachments
chinarail.jpg
chinarail.jpg (408.49 KiB) Viewed 1315 times
User avatar
SierraJuliet
Posts: 2319
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:40 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

RE: Inland Ports

Post by SierraJuliet »

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

The concept of strings of inland ports build to SPS size before strat movemnt is allowed is valid for non-operational railways, i.e. existing lines that have been destroyed by the retreating Chinese and yet-to-be-build lines like the Burma-Thailand "Death Railway". If you use the map I have provided, you can identify them by the black-grey dotted lines.

The Shanghai - Suchow RR has been in Japanese hands for a long time and is considered repaired and operational, so you can use it without building ports. The port SPS size on operational lines is there to give the option to raise the supply cap by simulating the construction of improvements on the line which increase capacity, like double track or additional sidings, switching yards, upgrading the track, signaling devices etc. - if you chose to invest the construction engineers and supplies necessary.

EDIT: Note that there are no bridges between Nanking and Pukow (first Nanking-Yangtze bridge was build in the 1960s) and between Pengpu and Huaishang (flood area of the re-routed Yellow river), so strat movement needs to be interrupted and the rivers crossed in movement mode, simulation ferry operations.

EDIT2: Note on the screenshot the darker blue color of the Yangtze and part of the Pearl river - these stretches of rivers are navigable by small crafts like the sampans, junks and gun boats both sides have. Ocean-going vessel up to 15k tons can reach Hankow. Might help with supplying front bases like Ichang and Nanchang.
On a side note, I think with some redeployment of forces, Japan can still launch a limited offensive in China, for example against Changsha.

Image
Thank you so much for this update. It also answers my next question which is now obvious to me should have been my first question. That is how to load the recommended map. I went to my favourite fall back position of trial and error and got it to work. So much rejoicing going on here. Now that I have the correct map installed so much of what I read in your briefings makes so much more sense. So if I follow what your guide from above I only need to worry about building ports to SPS size in all bases on non-operational railways being the black-grey dotted lines. This is brilliant and answers a nagging question on why that line at Sian never linked up to another main line.

If I follow you correctly in relation to increasing port SPS size on operational lines this will increase the supply cap which would mean more supplies able to be accommodated due to an improved rail system.

The map does help too in identifying those broken rail connections. Looks like a major movement pain coming up with getting on and off trains. Great idea for slowing things down to what it must have been like.

I take your point on pushing supply upriver to help with offensive efforts. Ed has given me a heads up on Chinese river gunboats. Could be an interesting game within a game on these rivers.
Kido Butai, although powerful, was a raiding force, and this is exactly how the Japanese understood its usage. 'Shattered Sword'
User avatar
Lowpe
Posts: 24063
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:25 pm

RE: Inland Ports

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

The concept of strings of inland ports build to SPS size before strat movemnt is allowed is valid for non-operational railways, i.e. existing lines that have been destroyed by the retreating Chinese and yet-to-be-build lines like the Burma-Thailand "Death Railway". If you use the map I have provided, you can identify them by the black-grey dotted lines.

Great stuff![&o]

User avatar
SierraJuliet
Posts: 2319
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:40 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Eggs

Post by SierraJuliet »

I should say too if I espouse something here which is total nonsense do let me know.

The monstrosity of getting a handle on all that is Japanese in this game has come home quickly. As we have a truncated first turn I am leaning towards a short round of orders followed by a lengthier session for turn 2. Some things just jump out at me, though, and say do something about this right now. One of them is attention to minefields. Japan starts out with minefields at 29 bases. If I round things out for 150 mines per ACM I will need around 54 ACMs just to cover the minefields already in existence. I hate the idea of leaving all those fields decay just because I didn’t look after them. Japan starts out with 24 ACM. A shortfall straight up of 30 ACM. The Kiso-E look like a good candidate so a bunch of them will be hitting the shipyards for immediate conversion. It will also be a good opportunity for all of them to repair damage. In this mod it is rare to find a ship not sporting any damage. Quite many ACM have system damage around 5 – 6 and some engine damage is not uncommon either.

LST has indicated that the production of mines has been bumped up in this mod. I am going to have to think on just how many more conversions to ACM I shall need as there will be more bases coming my way which will warrant a minefield or two.
Kido Butai, although powerful, was a raiding force, and this is exactly how the Japanese understood its usage. 'Shattered Sword'
User avatar
LargeSlowTarget
Posts: 4800
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Hessen, Germany - now living in France

RE: Eggs

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

Well, I don't believe that all ships of all nations started the war in perfect condition, like if never used prior to Dec 7th. So I added a low random amount of sys and eng damage.

Check carefully for conversion options, I have added a lot or changed availability dates. The coastal minelayers for example can convert to ACMs.

Personally, I convert all To'su xAKL hulls to ACM, their short range makes them useless for anything else. For the same reason the Ha'chi class converts exclusively to AMc.

The longer-legged xAKL become PB escorts, the Kiso-E class escort the 10kn xAKs, the Kujira class escort the 12kn xAK and some serve as pickets, the Ansyu class escort 14kn xAKs and TKs or run self-escorted FT missions near the front. Frees-up older DDs and E types to escort the fast AKs and TKs and to form hunter-killer groups.

The short-legged Daigen class xAKL convert to AGs, which I spread along the convoy routes, so escorts can reload DCs if necessary.

Furthermore, I convert all Husimis to AV. Parked at a base which also gets one the many 8 AV air base companies, the total amount of 24 AV is perfect for supporting one resized float plane unit on ASW or naval search. Even if the AV gets sunk by a port strike for example, the float planes can still operate and evacuate thx to the ground-based AV support. They can also be effective at low naval strikes against un-CAPed transport TFs.

I temporarily convert Yusen-N, Limas and Adens to xAK-t for the initial expansion, the convert them back to haul resources.

Finally, I convert the big 16kn and 18kn xAKs of the Kyushu and Yusen-A / -S classes to AK types for moving troops to the front, or eventual counter-invasions. I tend to keeps the xAPs in the rear, they transport troops to hubs safely behind the front, where the AKs take them over
Post Reply

Return to “After Action Reports”