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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/28/2018 8:43:47 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

Hi Dreamslayer,

What was the operational purpose of these units? Internal security or military operations against a foreign power?

Hey John.

Looks like for both. Before the war they was for internal security,security of Fronts/M.D.s rears and for strengthening of NKVD border guards units in various border districts. But with start of the war various units of various military(and not only) departaments was used on front.

_____________________________

"The problem of the forces' ratio can't be explained only by figures."
(c)Hitler, 6 Dec 1941, at military council

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 151
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/29/2018 1:18:02 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

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OMSDON

Elite(or even most elite)NKVD unit. Was used for garrison(e.g.goverment's buildings security) in Moscow and Moscow region, some units of division was used during Moscow defence battle. During mobilization in division was deployed OMSBON(Sep.Moto-rifle Brigade Osnaz),in some sources this brigade indicated as recon-sabotage or training.

OMSDON's "phase"structure (1st part - status on 28 Feb 1941, 2nd - pre-war mobilization plan, 3rd - actual status after deployment):




_____________________________

"The problem of the forces' ratio can't be explained only by figures."
(c)Hitler, 6 Dec 1941, at military council

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 152
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/29/2018 11:07:45 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

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NKVD operative forces (part 3).

On 22 August 1941 was formed 1st Rifle Division.
Forming near Vaskelovo(north from Leningrad), was used Shtat of RKKA's RD (10881 men), actually had before relocating 10483(half from various NKVD units and others from marching battalions). On 29 August started relocating via RR to front to Mga area, there was involved to combat same evening. On 9 August 1942 was transferred to RKKA and renamed to 46th RD(3rd forming).

On 9 September 23th Moto-rifle Division(HQ?) disbanded.

On 13 September on basis of 20th “Security”Division was formed 20th Rifle Division (Leningrad).
3 rifle regiments(7th-9th), 6908 men total, at start of October was added new formed 10th rifle rgt.
On 17 November lost 5123 men(KIA/WIA/MIA).
On 28 July 1942 was transferred to RKKA, on 2 August 1942 was renamed to 92th RD(2nd forming).

On 7 October was formed 2nd MSDON ,to this unit was attached OMSBON.
Formed on basis of OMSDON that was divided and reorganized. After these changes OMSDON had new Shtat(13232 men), 2nd MSDON – (10857 men) and OMSBON(3114 men). Exluding brigade both divisions had composition – 3 moto-rifle rgt, art.rgt, tank btn, sapper btn and others small units. The 2nd also based in Moscow.

4 January 1942 – OV NKVD was renamed to VV NKVD (NKVD Internal Forces/ Vnutrennie voyska NKVD).

5 January – by NKVD's order was formed :
5th RD (Tikhvin)
6th RD (Kalinin)
7th MRD (Tula)
8th MRD (Voronezh)
9th MRD (Rostov)
10th RD (Stalingrad)
11th RD (Pyatigorsk)
12th RD (Saratov)
Each division had Shtat about 10k men total. For forming was used most of OV/VV NKVD regiments and lesser NKVD units.
by same order 21th MRD was renamed to 3rd RD (but in some documents this unit still had old name) and 22th MRD to 4th RD.

_____________________________

"The problem of the forces' ratio can't be explained only by figures."
(c)Hitler, 6 Dec 1941, at military council

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 153
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/30/2018 4:24:18 AM   
56ajax


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From: Carnegie, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

Hi Dreamslayer,

What was the operational purpose of these units? Internal security or military operations against a foreign power?

Hey John.

Looks like for both. Before the war they was for internal security,security of Fronts/M.D.s rears and for strengthening of NKVD border guards units in various border districts. But with start of the war various units of various military(and not only) departaments was used on front.

Hey Dreamslayer,

Excellent work. If a unit is internal security then it is not included in the game and if military units are formed out of the cadre then you have to determine if it is already in the game and with what TOE %. Good luck with that. The game underestimates available soviet resources.

_____________________________

Apparently visiting a museum to inspect a Valentine tank is NOT romantic.

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 154
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/30/2018 6:14:20 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

Hey Dreamslayer,

Excellent work. If a unit is internal security then it is not included in the game and if military units are formed out of the cadre then you have to determine if it is already in the game and with what TOE %. Good luck with that. The game underestimates available soviet resources.

If we talking about Soviet side, then need to keep in mind that all these soviet units that was used during the war not only typical units of NKO("Ministry of Defense"). There are units of various "departments"(Commisariats)- NKO(typical ground forces ,PVO,VVS),NKVMF (Navy, naval aviation and various coastal forts),NKVD(border guard units, OV,"security" forces, convoy units),NKPS (railroads units), some construction's departments. All of them had their own structures and "pools". Of course with start of the war mobilization of reservists was performed by NKO, but each "department" had their own quota. Also between some influental Commisariats was some kind of rivalry. If necessary units or part of Commissariats's pools was transferred to others(mainly to NKO), e.g. we can see in the game many Naval brigades that was used on front.

I guess for simulation of these separate "pools" can be created separate producible NKVD squad ground element.Atm in the game is unproducible NKVD squad(type - HQ troops) that contains 11 men with 11 PPSh and 1 Hand Grenade - it's too confused. So with new reworked NKVD squad that can be produced under some limits game can be improved in this aspect. Something similar can be used for Naval infantry squads too.

Yes, some players can say why we need to discuss about unknown Naval or NKVD squads, or (what?) NKPS.
But in reality of real total war on Eastern Front everything was used.
As example from the game. In the Riga we can see 22nd NKVD Rifle division that has TOE as normal RKKA's RD. But actually it was formed on basis(by pre-war mobilization plan it should have been 1st,3rd and 5th NKVD rgts) of 5th NKVD Moto-rifle rgt, 83th NKVD RR "security" rgt, 155th NKVD convoy btn and consolidated local rgt(workers,cadets) - total about 4k men total.So was used everything that was around. 30 June 22nd "Division" due to the threat of encirclement and heavy losses retreated from city. Yes, during this battle various remains of retreated units of NW Front was there too.

Using of not-typical units in role of light infantry was standart practice(especially during critical situations), various battalions of workers, militia,etc.
I've also some ideas(as always) about "an adaptation" of some NKVD formations for the game.



_____________________________

"The problem of the forces' ratio can't be explained only by figures."
(c)Hitler, 6 Dec 1941, at military council

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 155
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/1/2019 10:40:56 AM   
56ajax


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From: Carnegie, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

NKVD operative forces (part 1).

NKVD had no less intricate structure than RKKA. In the game NKVD presented by border guards units and accidentally by 22nd NKVD Rifle Division(but has same TOE as normal RKKA's) in Riga.

NKVD operative forces/ operativnye voyska NKVD/ OV NKVD.

26 February 1941 was formed HQ OV/ Upravlenie OV .

OV structure on 28 February 1941:
(2nd column: actual men total in unit/ Shtat(TOE))



OMSDON – Dzerzhinskiy's Separate Moto-rifle Division OSNAZ/ otdelnaya motostrelkovaya diviziya osobovo naznacheniya imeni Dzerzhinskovo.

fyi

I am quoting Askey - OMSDON was used for internal security and military parades in Moscow. Whilst elements did man the front line in December 1941, there is no evidence that it performed special operations and it's achievements are listed as rounding up 485 enemy agents, 69,753 deserters and 320,000 civilians. I think it should be in the game as a frozen unit, not released until the Axis closes in on Moscow (and ideally not to be moved west of the capital).

_____________________________

Apparently visiting a museum to inspect a Valentine tank is NOT romantic.

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 156
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/1/2019 7:43:12 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

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I agree that some of these NKVD units in the rear should be frozen. Also I can say that some data in Askey's book has incorrections, I guess it's ok for so huge and intricated OOB.

_____________________________

"The problem of the forces' ratio can't be explained only by figures."
(c)Hitler, 6 Dec 1941, at military council

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 157
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/2/2019 12:52:48 AM   
56ajax


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And Askey is not a fan of the NKVD Divisions, discounts them by 10/15% in terms of performance, and states that the 114,000 NKVD personnel supplied to the Army to form 15 Army divisions in 1941 performed much better.

_____________________________

Apparently visiting a museum to inspect a Valentine tank is NOT romantic.

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 158
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/2/2019 7:56:13 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

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During my digging about NKVD I discovered missed Army HQ.

Army of NKVD forces (Armiya voysk NKVD) - 70th Army.

Started forming by GKO's order on 14 October 1942. HQ in Sverdlovsk, 6 divisions in 6 large cities in the rear (about divisions maybe will be later).
From 1 February 1943 was transferred to RKKA and moved to Central Front. On 5 February 1943 was renamed to 70th Army.

_____________________________

"The problem of the forces' ratio can't be explained only by figures."
(c)Hitler, 6 Dec 1941, at military council

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 159
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/2/2019 11:38:55 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

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NKVD operative(internal) forces (part 4).

(from 1942 only about division/brigade size units)

On 13 April 1942 was formed rifle brigades(each had Shtat about 5k men total):
16th - Yaroslavl
17th - Ivanovo
18th - Kazan
19th - Kuybyshev
20th - Penza
21th - Tambov
22th - Balashov
23th – Zagorsk

On 9 May was formed 13th MRD.
28 July was transferred to RKKA, 2 August was reformed to 95th RD(2nd forming).

On 16 June on basis of 3rd "Security"brigade was formed 3rd rifle brigade.
On 19 June 22th rifle brigade was disbanded.

On 10 August in Caucasus was formed :
Ordzhonikidze RD
Makhachkala RD
Tbilisi RD

3rd rifle brigade was reformed to Grozny RD

3rd RD(21th MRD) and 9th MRD in August was transferred to RKKA.

On 20 August 4th MRD was disbanded.

On September 12th RD was reformed to 22th rifle brigade.

On 24 September Sukhumi RD was included to VV NKVD.

On 11 October was formed Kutaisi rifle brigade.

On 22 October was formed 24th rifle brigade(Kuybyshev) and 25th rifle brigade(Penza).

On 16 November 22th rifle brigade was disbanded.

On 11 December 11th RD was disbanded.

On 24 December was disbanded 18th rifle brigade.

On 6 January 1943 Makhachkala RD was disbanded.

On 26 January Kutaisi rifle brigade was renamed to 18th rifle brigade.

On 18 March was formed Special(Osobaya) RD in Krasnodar.

On 14 June Special(Osobaya) RD was disbanded.

On 29 March 1944 Grozny RD was renamed to 8th RD, Ordzhonikidze RD to 9th RD. Tbilisi RD was disbanded.

On 14 October was formed Consolidated(Svodnaya) RD.

During December 1944 – February 1945 was formed 57th-63th and 65th-66th RDs, Special(Osobaya) RD was renamed to 64th RD.

_____________________________

"The problem of the forces' ratio can't be explained only by figures."
(c)Hitler, 6 Dec 1941, at military council

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 160
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/6/2019 7:16:24 AM   
56ajax


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From: Carnegie, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

NKVD operative(internal) forces (part 4).

(from 1942 only about division/brigade size units)

On 13 April 1942 was formed rifle brigades(each had Shtat about 5k men total):
16th - Yaroslavl
17th - Ivanovo
18th - Kazan
19th - Kuybyshev
20th - Penza
21th - Tambov
22th - Balashov
23th – Zagorsk

On 9 May was formed 13th MRD.
28 July was transferred to RKKA, 2 August was reformed to 95th RD(2nd forming).

On 16 June on basis of 3rd "Security"brigade was formed 3rd rifle brigade.
On 19 June 22th rifle brigade was disbanded.

On 10 August in Caucasus was formed :
Ordzhonikidze RD
Makhachkala RD
Tbilisi RD

3rd rifle brigade was reformed to Grozny RD

3rd RD(21th MRD) and 9th MRD in August was transferred to RKKA.

On 20 August 4th MRD was disbanded.

On September 12th RD was reformed to 22th rifle brigade.

On 24 September Sukhumi RD was included to VV NKVD.

On 11 October was formed Kutaisi rifle brigade.

On 22 October was formed 24th rifle brigade(Kuybyshev) and 25th rifle brigade(Penza).

On 16 November 22th rifle brigade was disbanded.

On 11 December 11th RD was disbanded.

On 24 December was disbanded 18th rifle brigade.

On 6 January 1943 Makhachkala RD was disbanded.

On 26 January Kutaisi rifle brigade was renamed to 18th rifle brigade.

On 18 March was formed Special(Osobaya) RD in Krasnodar.

On 14 June Special(Osobaya) RD was disbanded.

On 29 March 1944 Grozny RD was renamed to 8th RD, Ordzhonikidze RD to 9th RD. Tbilisi RD was disbanded.

On 14 October was formed Consolidated(Svodnaya) RD.

During December 1944 – February 1945 was formed 57th-63th and 65th-66th RDs, Special(Osobaya) RD was renamed to 64th RD.

Hi Dreamslayer,

Are you able to highlight or clarify which of these units need to be included in the OOB?

_____________________________

Apparently visiting a museum to inspect a Valentine tank is NOT romantic.

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 161
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/6/2019 10:12:47 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax
Hi Dreamslayer,

Are you able to highlight or clarify which of these units need to be included in the OOB?

If honest, I think these NKVD units mainly had their importance on front in 1941-42.
If we want to see some of them to be included into the game, then could it start from adding units up to 5 January 1942 date(from that my "shedule" above). Or ever start from adding only those moto-rifle regiments and OMSDON.

But need to keep in mind that it's was only part of NKVD units.

I discovered that those NKVD border units which we can see in the game was not disbanded,dissapeared or abducted by aliens.Mainly of them (which was not destroyed)was reformed during atumn 1941 from NKVD border (guard) detachments(otryad) to NKVD border (guard) regiments.
By GKO's order on 26 June was formed UOVT.
UOVT/ Upravleniye okhrany voyskovogo tyla /Управление охраны войского тыла = (some terms is too diffucult for translation) HQ of military rear's security.
Each Front got one UOVT. It was was some kind of NKVD HQ in the Front structure. By the order all NKVD units(with the exception of NKVD units that was involved to combat and was under operative subordination to RKKA) that was in the Front's area was subordinated to UOVT of this Front.
Commanders of first UOVTs become commanders of Borders districts(commander Western Front's UOVT became Border forces's commander GL Sokolov.

If we want too see adding many new NKVD units then need to do something about CP capacities. Because Soviet side has problem with it. There are already many small units which costs too many points and I understand that most of players does not want to have even more issues about it. It's a bit separate problem ,maybe not for this tread but let me say a few words about it here.
I think there is needed revision about CP capacity. it's very unnormal when small units like Soveit F.R. or NKVD border "regiments" that can has about 1-1,5k men costs as half of Division(10-14k).
I don't know how to change it in better way. For NKVD units could be add NKVD HQ(those UOVT) for each Front HQ, and while NKVD units assigned to them then these NKVD units costs 0. Similar story about security HQs and divisions could be apply for German side too, or even with pre-splited security divisions(with historically correct names as regiments or battalions) - anyway players mainly use them divided.
About FR/FZ - probably remove CP costs for these units, but make them to be assigned only to Front/Army Group HQs (for reduce abuse their zero costs for low level HQs with super leaders).
FR/FZ and German Security units getting supply from any distance I think same rule could be used for all small units like NKVD small formations.
Also there is need something for restrict players to use small units far away from their HQs. In some AARs very often you can see when NKVD "regiments" from whole USSR going to defence Pskov/Luga line or to Finnish non-attack line. It's gamey for sure, I'm not trying to blame somebody for it because players trying use everything that they can in the game for win = )

But let's return to NKVD. As I said those OV/VV formations and Border formations it's only part of the Narodnyy Komissariat Vnutrennih Del.
I think in the game could be add some "Security" units too.
NKVD RR Security units and NKVD Industry Security units.
If someone want to read various copies of archive documents about NKVD formations or something about it. I've found one good source in Russian - http://voenspez.ru/index.php?board=22.0

Ok, no more spoilers.

< Message edited by Dreamslayer -- 1/6/2019 10:20:33 AM >


_____________________________

"The problem of the forces' ratio can't be explained only by figures."
(c)Hitler, 6 Dec 1941, at military council

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 162
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/7/2019 7:34:39 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

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NKVD RR Security forces

At start of the war NKVD RR Security forces had 9 Divisions and 5 Brigades (in some sources, including Glantz, it's only 8 + 5).

On 1 June 1941:

2nd Division. HQ – Leningrad
51th rgt – Leningrad
52th rgt – Petrozavodsk
80th rgt - Kandalaksha
82th rgt – Vyborg

3rd Division. HQ – Mogilev
53th rgt – Velikie Luki
73th rgt - Mogilev
76th rgt - Orsha
79th rgt – station Bryansk-2

4th Division. HQ – Kiev
55th rgt - Korosten
56th rgt - Kiev
57th rgt – station Shevchenko(near Smela city)

5th Division. HQ – Kharkov
54th rgt - Dnepropetrovsk
59th rgt - Armavir
81th rgt – Kharkov

6th Division. HQ - Khabarovsk
71th rgt - Khabarovsk
72th rgt - Voroshilov
198th rgt – station Sedanka

7th Division. HQ - Svobodnyy
62th rgt – station Skovorodino
63th rgt - Birobidzhan
70th rgt – station Kuybyshevka

8th Division. HQ – Chita
67th rgt - Irkutsk
68th rgt - Chita
69th rgt – Kaganovich's station

9th Division. HQ – Vilnius
58th rgt - Belostok
60th rgt - Brest
83th rgt - Riga
84th rgt – Vilnius(Vilno)

10th Division. HQ – Lvov
64th rgt - Kovel
66th rgt - Lvov
75th rgt - Stryy
77th rgt – Stanislav

26th Brigade. HQ – Tbilisi
61th rgt – Tbilisi

27th Brigade. HQ – Novosibirsk
65th rgt - Novosibirsk

28th Brigade. HQ – Gorkiy
74th rgt – Kazan
183th rgt – Dzerzhinsk

29th Brigade. HQ – Kuybyshev

30th Brigade. HQ – Tashkent

Main porpose of these units was security of RR objects (bridges, stations etc) and (if necessary) their destruction. Looks like they had light weapons, some amount of machinguns, 50mm mortars, during the war they starts to receive AT-rifles and AT-guns. Usually(before mobilization deployment)each regiment also had armored train that had same name number as their regiment.

More details about each unit (except “of-map units”) will be in separate posts.

_____________________________

"The problem of the forces' ratio can't be explained only by figures."
(c)Hitler, 6 Dec 1941, at military council

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 163
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/8/2019 9:33:55 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

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2nd NKVD RR Security Division.

On 1 June had about 6k men. During mobilization was additionally deployed 109th rgt in Tallinn, 110th rgt in Batetskaya) and 35th reserve btn in Leningrad. After it Shtat was increased to about 11k men.
On 11 February 1942 Division was renamed to 23th NKVD RR Security Division.

_____________________________

"The problem of the forces' ratio can't be explained only by figures."
(c)Hitler, 6 Dec 1941, at military council

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 164
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/9/2019 2:36:12 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

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3rd NKVD RR Security Division.

During mobilization 3rd Div HQ was relocated to Roslavl, there was also deployed 33th reserve btn. In Gomel was deployed 78th rgt, in Ordzhonikidzegrad was deployed 188th rgt(looks like its was rgt for industry security, in the next these formations I'll call just "security" for simplify).
Because in further some units of division was reassigned to other formations then probably better about each unit of division separately.

peace-time TOE - on 10 Sep 1941(actual/war-time TOE)
921 - 2073 / 2116 53th rgt
1151 - 557 / 2433 73th rgt
1397 - 1272 / 2810 76th rgt
1457 - 2102 / 2220 79th rgt
- - 2220 / 2582 78th rgt
- - 1165 / 1235 188th rgt
- - 517 / 517 33th btn

On 11 February 1942 Division was renamed to 24th NKVD RR Security Division.
Looks like all armored trains of NKVD RR Security units on start of 1942 was transferred to divisional/brigade level from regiments.

_____________________________

"The problem of the forces' ratio can't be explained only by figures."
(c)Hitler, 6 Dec 1941, at military council

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 165
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/9/2019 3:29:22 PM   
chaos45

 

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adding all those divisions and regiments would be a huge help to the soviets in the early game.

ITs one thing I like about what your doing is showing how many soviets units weren't actually represented in the game while the germans have every single little company and Battalion in the game basically lol.

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 166
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/10/2019 3:59:38 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

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4th NKVD RR Security Division.

From April 1941 also had 81th rifle btn(probably "security") in Vyshgorod.
Before the war division had 4654 of 4669 men (peace-time Shtat).
During mobilization was additionally deployed 114th rgt in Kishinev and 34th reserve btn in Kazatin.
(status of units on 10 September 1941) actual/TOE :
HQ - 91 / 87
55th rgt - 2454 / 2572
56th rgt - 3062 / 3111
57th rgt - 1766 / 1929
114th rgt - 1260 / 1327
34th btn - 445 / 517
81th btn - 883 / 928

Most part of division was encircled in Kiev area and suffered heavy losses.
On 11 February Division was renamed to 25th NKVD RR Security Division.

_____________________________

"The problem of the forces' ratio can't be explained only by figures."
(c)Hitler, 6 Dec 1941, at military council

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 167
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/11/2019 8:20:22 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

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5th NKVD RR Security Division.

Before the war also had 15th sep.btn in Voronezh. On 1 June 1941 had 5118 men.
During mobilization by 5th Division was deployed in Rostov 36th NKVD RR Security brigade HQ. To this brigade was reassigned 59th rgt and 15th btn(that was reformed to 125th rgt). Probably about brigades will be separately.
Besides of it by 5th Division was additionally deployed 113th rgt in Krasnyy Liman and 115th rgt in Tula.

Status on 10 December 1941 (actual/TOE):
HQ - 127/ 116
54th rgt - 1446/ 1705
81th rgt - 1838/ 1935
113th rgt - 1412/ 1410

115th rgt - on 1 October 1941 has TOE 1217 men.

On 11 February 1942 Division was renamed to 26th NKVD RR Security Division.

_____________________________

"The problem of the forces' ratio can't be explained only by figures."
(c)Hitler, 6 Dec 1941, at military council

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 168
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/11/2019 3:13:37 PM   
Great_Ajax


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The NKVD units pose interesting problems for the game design in WitE and WitE 2 as all security type units do. How do you get the player to use these security units for their intended purposes and not throw them immediately in the front line? The NKVD Railroad and Industry Security Divisions were intended to guard these installation against guerilla and sabotage attacks and not engage in ground combat against conventional forces. So, if we add these forces, how do we prevent them from being used for un-historical purposes? It the same reason why German Military Police and almost all of the German auxiliary local security forces are not included in the game.

Dreamslayer, I sent you a PM in the past and didn't hear from you. You have a lot of excellent knowledge that the WitE 2 team could benefit from. If you are ever interested in joining the team and reviewing our data, I would love to have you.

Trey

_____________________________

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WiTE Scenario Designer
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(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 169
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/11/2019 10:04:06 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1688
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline
I think the issues is in the early days of the war the locations they were securing were attacked/overrun by the germans….and thus just like the German security divisions and regiments that are in the game they were used in combat as the positions they were securing were attacked.

I do agree some of the German police units arent in the game, and you have no counters for the local recruited security forces--but you do have several as actual combat formations in the game that historicaly probably performed much worse than the German national ratings they have in the game.

However you then give the Germans a massive benefit of massive Hiwi recruitment--which also more or less represents more or less in game combat value wise these forces---if not actually giving the German more CV than historical from them.

I would also say these NKVD units seem to have more in common with German security divisions that are in the game than the German police and local forces...also the Germans in many cases didnt have alot of trust for hiwis or local security forces at the official level--in fact for a long time it was more of a by unit/local commander decision before the Germans finally made it official policy due to lack of men---which isnt an issue many german players see in the game.

In fact one game balance change that would be interesting is the Germans arent allowed to use Hiwis until the ToE of the German army is reduced to a certain level and it would be much closer to history.

(in reply to Great_Ajax)
Post #: 170
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/12/2019 3:20:44 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 860
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

The NKVD units pose interesting problems for the game design in WitE and WitE 2 as all security type units do. How do you get the player to use these security units for their intended purposes and not throw them immediately in the front line? The NKVD Railroad and Industry Security Divisions were intended to guard these installation against guerilla and sabotage attacks and not engage in ground combat against conventional forces. So, if we add these forces, how do we prevent them from being used for un-historical purposes? It the same reason why German Military Police and almost all of the German auxiliary local security forces are not included in the game.

Dreamslayer, I sent you a PM in the past and didn't hear from you. You have a lot of excellent knowledge that the WitE 2 team could benefit from. If you are ever interested in joining the team and reviewing our data, I would love to have you.

Trey


Dear Great_Ajax,

Are we related?

56ajax

Anyway,

Include the NKVD and other divisions but they should be frozen and have their historical disband date but cannot be disbanded manually. Their TOE should be strong on rifles mortars and light anti tank guns but lacking heavy equipment. They should have limited attack value but some defensive capabilities.

It is not so much that these units are missing rather than what they actually represent - a trained pool of para militaries numbering in the 100,000s - if the NKVD could supply 114,000 in 1941 to build 15 new army divisions....

And yes Dreamslayer would be an excellent resource to work on WiTE2.



_____________________________

Apparently visiting a museum to inspect a Valentine tank is NOT romantic.

(in reply to Great_Ajax)
Post #: 171
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/12/2019 7:00:49 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 206
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

The NKVD units pose interesting problems for the game design in WitE and WitE 2 as all security type units do. How do you get the player to use these security units for their intended purposes and not throw them immediately in the front line? The NKVD Railroad and Industry Security Divisions were intended to guard these installation against guerilla and sabotage attacks and not engage in ground combat against conventional forces. So, if we add these forces, how do we prevent them from being used for un-historical purposes? It the same reason why German Military Police and almost all of the German auxiliary local security forces are not included in the game.

Dreamslayer, I sent you a PM in the past and didn't hear from you. You have a lot of excellent knowledge that the WitE 2 team could benefit from. If you are ever interested in joining the team and reviewing our data, I would love to have you.

Trey

Ok. There are many issues about adding these NKVD units and adopting them to the game.
How to reduce using them in the frontline. Probably need to increase the cost of attack for this kind of units; increase their losses because they have not similar weapon/equipment as normal army units, so
players will use them only as "last resort".
Many soviet units in this war was used in non-"specialized/designed" role. Main example of this is Naval rifle brigades.
Most of NKVD units in border areas was used in combat against normal Wehrmacht units in various stages/rates.
There can be used in the game 4 types of NKVD units:
1) those borders units, they're already presented in the game
2) Operative units . It's can be started from adding moto-rifle regiments(with MP as normal soviet motorized unit) and Dzerzhinskiy's Divison in Moscow.
3) RR Security units
4) Security units
All these units that located in the rear could be frozen and activated in some specific condition.
For keeping some of these formations far away from frontline players could be compelled to have security units in industry centers or large cities, if not then they're getting penalties.

About your PM I don't know, I've answered to all.

_____________________________

"The problem of the forces' ratio can't be explained only by figures."
(c)Hitler, 6 Dec 1941, at military council

(in reply to Great_Ajax)
Post #: 172
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/12/2019 2:13:43 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1688
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline
Dreamslayer- even just as rear security units at factories an such these would be a huge benefit to the Soviet player in reducing German panzer/motorized raid tactics in the early game.

You can see many examples of German players launching 20+ hex raids deep into soviet lines to grab a key rail line or factory city....have all these NKVD regiments/divisions in the rear would help limit this non-historical game tactic as it would be extra speed bumps/Zocs even if they are just static units at key railroad/bridge/city hexes.

I would also advocate that you should be moveable and not completely static--because then a German player can just load the game up and see where they all are for the entire game and plan operations around them, so the soviet player should have some ability to move them.

As to troop quality...you could just leave them with the light weapons and current soviet morale/exp levels- as almost all soviet units are garbage in 1941 as is and take massive losses....so there is no reason to try and make these even worse IMO. Just make it so they cant gain guard status or auto disband in 1942 at some point if this was the historical case.

< Message edited by chaos45 -- 1/12/2019 2:17:51 PM >

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 173
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/13/2019 8:08:23 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 206
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline
Another one example of NKVD units's action.

10th Stalingrad Rifle Division of VV NKVD during defense of Stalingrad.
From Wiki(in English) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_NKVD_Rifle_Division
More detailed but in Russian - http://voenspez.ru/index.php?topic=7580.0

_____________________________

"The problem of the forces' ratio can't be explained only by figures."
(c)Hitler, 6 Dec 1941, at military council

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 174
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 1/29/2019 2:30:14 PM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 6359
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline
I will look into adding the 1943 NKVD add-ons: the 70th Army and the 102/106/140/162/175 Rifle divs. They could be added with full infantry elements but somewhat lacking in guns/vehicles
I could add the rail guard elements as additional NKVD Border Regiments, just need a list what to place where + outside the zone of AI moves from first turn script.

The 1941/42 NKVD divs are a tad more tricky as not all saw combat. I'll probably not include the special div in Moscow as only small parts seem to have engaged in combat.
What I have for now:
the existing 22nd div, should be rebuilt to a new OB with far less guns and reduced in size as several parts where stationed elsewhere.
1st NKVD div 8/41 NW of Leningrad
10th mid 42 Stalingrad area
20th, ~9/41, S/E of Leningrad
probably the 21st, Leningrad area
probably the 23rd in Kiev area

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 175
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