Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

[56ajax]

Denniss has requested that all issues relating to Soviet OOB, incorrect commanders etc be posted in the one thread, so here goes. I am copying in some comments from other threads.

22nd Army

The 22nd Army was formed from the HQ of the Urals MD in June 1941 and was headquartered in Velikie Luki by the 22nd.

In the game it is led by Vostrukhov but the closest I can get to him having a role in this Army on 22nd June is as deputy commander, rear services (ie logistics). In fact the earliest commander I can find for the 22nd Army is (Y)Ershakov who took command on 22/6/41. In my opinion Ershakov is the most appropriate leader for this Army.

(Thanks to Dreamslayer for his analysis of Russian Sources).

morvael replied on the subsequent commander of the Ural Military District 'LG Aleksandr Vasilevich Katkov, according to Pettibone, replaced in 1945 by CG Fyodor Isidorovich Kuznetsov.'

7th Army

The Soviet 7th Army appears in the game as the 7th Independent Army under the command of Meretskov.

On June the 22nd this army was known as the 7th Army (Northern Front) and it was under the command of Gorelenko. (One source says he took command on 28/01/41 and another in June 41).

On the 25 September 1941 the 7th Army was directly subordinated to Stavka and was renamed the 7th Separate Army.

If we are using 21/6/41 as our baseline then a Name and Commander change is required.

Denniss replied : Commander change seems OK - Meretskov took command in 9/41. Renaming is a bit too much detail.

[Denniss]

changes done:

x GC41 and some smaller scenarios starting June/July 1941 x
SOV 7th Ind Army - commander change to Gorelenko
SOV 22nd Army - commander change to Ershakov
SOV Urals Military District - commander change to Katkov

[Dreamslayer]

Ural M.D.
Zhernakov Ilya Alexandrovich(colonel)
on 17 June 1941 was appointed for interim(?) chief of staff
on 21 June 1941 was appointed for interim(?) of Commander of Ural M.D.

Katkov Alexandr Vasilevich(general-major) took this command from october/november 1941.

[morvael]

Unfortunately we don't have colonels in WitE (it was a problem in one small scenario), so I guess Katkov is best choice (compromise).

[56ajax]

Orel Military District Commander

I have found a reference to the fact that Pavel A Kurochkin (not Remezov) was Commander in Chief of the OMD for a very short period, from the 19th June 1941 to early July 1941. Can anyone else confirm this?

20th Army

Commanded by Borzikov in the game but the closest I can get to him being associated with this Army is as deputy Commander on 1/7/1941. Remezov took command for a short time on the 25th June 1941. Remezov would appear to be the more appropriate leader.

[Dreamslayer]

I have found a reference to the fact that Pavel A Kurochkin (not Remezov) was Commander in Chief of the OMD for a very short period, from the 19th June 1941 to early July 1941. Can anyone else confirm this?

Kurochkin
22 June 1940 - 14 January 1941 - Commander of 17A(Transbaikal M.D.)
14 January 1941 - 19 June 1941 - Commander of the Transbaikal M.D.
From 19 June 1941(NKO's order #00317) Commander of the Orel M.D.
5 Jule 1941 was appointed for 20A(Western Front)

[Denniss]

wiki claims Remezov was in charge of 20th Army

[56ajax]

ORIGINAL: Denniss

wiki claims Remezov was in charge of 20th Army

Yep, Remezov was in command of the 20th Army from 25/06/41 to 5/07/41 then he went to briefly command the 13th Army before he pops up again as CIC Northern Caucasus MD

[56ajax]

North Caucasus MD

In the game Konev is the commander but he relinquished this post on 13/06/1941. At that time the deputy commander was M.A. Reiter, who became acting CIC North Caucasus MD on 22/06/41.

19th Army

In the game Boldin is the commander but he did not take command until 20/10/41. Konev took command on 26/06/1941.

Assuming the above is correct I suggest we make Reiter CIC NC MD, and Konev commander of the 19th Army. If possible.

[Dreamslayer]

johntoml56
sorry, what "CIC" is means?

[morvael]

commander in chief

[Dreamslayer]

I guess there is no point to have Northern Fleet Air Command HQ on the map/scenarios.
Actually this Command operated far to north (mostly for air cover of the Fleet bases,Fleet ops and naval recon), it is off-map in the game.
At start of the war this Command had only 1 ground airfield(Vaenga, near Severomorsk) and with the exception of some patrol/support air units had only 1 air regiment (72th SAP - 49 old-types fighters and 11 SB-2). In October 1941 there was formed another one regiment - 78th IAP(used Hurricane IIB planes).

[56ajax]

Volga Military District (VMD)

In the game V Gerasimenko is listed as the Commander of the VMD but M T Popov (deputy commander VMD) was appointed Commander in Chief sometime in June 1941.

21st Army

In the game M Efremov is listed as the commander but he was not appointed until 26th July? 1941. V Gerasimenko was commander on 22nd June 1941.

[Omat]

Many suggestion are for Dates after 21.June 1941. But the developer tried to find the leader which commanded the HQ in the night 21/22. June. So all depends on which Date you set as "starting" point for the assignment of the leaders.

Of course after the 21/22. June the exchange of leaders on the soviet side was extrem...

And to make it more complicated some leaders where on the "way"..
Kovalev should take over the command of the Transbaikel MD. But he does not take up his command. The same for Kurochkin. He does not "reached" his new command in the morining 22. June.

So in a way every way you chose the assignment is "not correct" and can be criticized

[56ajax]

ORIGINAL: Omat


Many suggestion are for Dates after 21.June 1941. But the developer tried to find the leader which commanded the HQ in the night 21/22. June. So all depends on which Date you set as "starting" point for the assignment of the leaders.

Of course after the 21/22. June the exchange of leaders on the soviet side was extrem...

And to make it more complicated some leaders where on the "way"..
Kovalev should take over the command of the Transbaikel MD. But he does not take up his command. The same for Kurochkin. He does not "reached" his new command in the morining 22. June.

So in a way every way you chose the assignment is "not correct" and can be criticized

Tend to agree and to be honest in some instances I cannot find out who was in charge on 21/06/41. That said I would prefer someone who was in charge on the 22/06 to someone who did not take up the post till months later.

And it is not criticism but correction, or in some instances a better guess.

[Dreamslayer]

ORIGINAL: Omat


Many suggestion are for Dates after 21.June 1941. But the developer tried to find the leader which commanded the HQ in the night 21/22. June. So all depends on which Date you set as "starting" point for the assignment of the leaders.

Of course after the 21/22. June the exchange of leaders on the soviet side was extrem...

And to make it more complicated some leaders where on the "way"..
Kovalev should take over the command of the Transbaikel MD. But he does not take up his command. The same for Kurochkin. He does not "reached" his new command in the morining 22. June.

So in a way every way you chose the assignment is "not correct" and can be criticized

I guess there is need to divide start dates (for Soviet OOB).

One date(21-22 June) for the formations of the M.D. which was involved into combat during 1st turn.
And other date for the rear formations. When Soviet player sees after logistic phase motorized German units around Minsk,Riga etc. it is not 21-22 June for him =)

On the 1st turn Soviet player does not have enough AP for make so many changes(leader and units reassighnings).
So some changes which was made historically around 21-25 June in the Soviet rear will not hurt anyone. Because it is not affect any combat.

E.g. 19th Army. unfrozen on turn 2. Leader there does not affect any combat during 1-2 turns. But we will get historically correct leader for this HQ on the the turn 3. I think it is good. And having "random" leaders in some of these HQ is not so good.

[Omat]

I think you addressed an important point Dreamslayer. With the limitation of ap it is hard to redo the historical leader changes... especially in the first year of war.

[56ajax]

22nd Rifle Corp

In the game it is commanded by Dukanhov but I cannot find any reference for this appointment. It was commanded by A Ksenofontov from 3/6/41 to 22/9/41.

(Thanks to Dreamslayer for research and analysis.)

[Omat]

Mybe this:

http://www.niehorster.org/012_ussr/41_o ... my_27.html

Other sources indicates Ksenofontov as commander. I think Ksenofontov is more correct.

Omat

ORIGINAL: johntoml56

22nd Rifle Corp

In the game it is commanded by Dukanhov but I cannot find any reference for this appointment. It was commanded by A Ksenofontov from 3/6/41 to 22/9/41.

(Thanks to Dreamslayer for research and analysis.)

22nd Rifle Corp

[Dreamslayer]

ORIGINAL: johntoml56

22nd Rifle Corp

In the game it is commanded by Dukanhov but I cannot find any reference for this appointment. It was commanded by A Ksenofontov from 3/6/41 to 22/9/41.

Mikhail Dukhanov(Михаил Духанов in rus.)-in the game Dukanhov.
On May 1940 - assistant of the Commander of Leningrad M.D.
In the war from August 1941 - assistant of Commander of Northern Front.
On 19 Sep - commander of 10th Rifle division

Alexandr Ksenofontov
on 1938 - commander of 43th Rifle corps(1st Far East Army) which participated in battles against Japan around Lake Hassan.
On 3 June 1941 - was appointed commander of 22th Rifle corps.
from September 1941 - deputy of the commander of 11th Army