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Railway repair - 11/25/2017 2:34:57 PM   
FaneFlugt.DK


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Apart from the intrinsic repair factor in scenarios, some scenarios also have specific rail repair units. If they can only move by rail, do you then have to unembark them for them to have a go at repairing the rail? or can they do it while in railmode? and what is the repair range of such a unit? is it the rail in front of it? or is it within an area?

< Message edited by FaneFlugt.DK -- 11/25/2017 2:36:40 PM >


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RE: Railway repair - 11/25/2017 2:40:46 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FaneFlugt.DK

Apart from the intrinsic repair factor in scenarios, some scenarios also have specific rail repair units. If they can only move by rail, do you then have to unembark them for them to have a go at repairing the rail? or can they do it while in railmode? and what is the repair range of such a unit? is it the rail in front of it? or is it within an area?

a) Yes, auto-rail repair can be defined with events (see my Tutorial '41 scenario)
b) If RR repair units are embarked, they do the job; no need to disembark them (see Steve's D21 scenario). They repair the railroad that's adjacent to their actual position on the railhead. They can repair just one per turn.
c) Sometimes RR engineers are assigned to higher echelon HQs or are separate units of labour/construction battalions (think about the FDB unit in WitE, the detached RAD, Eisenbahnpioniere, etc.). The latter units you can use to leap-frog repair, i.e. one unti repairs a part of the track, the other moves ahead and repairs another one, etc.
d) I will do some logistic tutorial in the setting of the Tutorial '41 environment as soon the basic tutorial lesson is over.

Klink, Oberst

< Message edited by Oberst_Klink -- 11/25/2017 2:45:26 PM >


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RE: Railway repair - 11/25/2017 6:06:27 PM   
sanderz

 

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Sorry Oberst_Klink but still more questions on this as i don't quite follow what you are saying......


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

a) Yes, auto-rail repair can be defined with events (see my Tutorial '41 scenario)

So there is no "on map" unit associated with this - it just happens?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink
b) If RR repair units are embarked, they do the job; no need to disembark them (see Steve's D21 scenario). They repair the railroad that's adjacent to their actual position on the railhead. They can repair just one per turn.

The manual says "The attempt will consume the unit’s entire movement allowance" --- does this mean "remaining movement allowance" or that the unit moves one turn and then next turn (provided it doesn't move again) that it repairs the next adjacent rail hex?

If it takes an entire movement allowance then does this effectively mean only 1 repair every 2 turns? Which would seem to be very slow.

Also the manual says "attempt to repair damaged Railroads in their location" - i assume this is wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink
c) Sometimes RR engineers are assigned to higher echelon HQs or are separate units of labour/construction battalions (think about the FDB unit in WitE, the detached RAD, Eisenbahnpioniere, etc.). The latter units you can use to leap-frog repair, i.e. one unti repairs a part of the track, the other moves ahead and repairs another one, etc.

So there is a second type of unit??? e.g. where you move the unit and it instantly auto repairs (rather than at the end of the turn)? Or is there an order you need to give it that does the instant repair? Does it also need to be in embark mode or can it move normally? How do you tell which type of engineer is which? I couldn't see any reference to this in the manual.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink
d) I will do some logistic tutorial in the setting of the Tutorial '41 environment as soon the basic tutorial lesson is over.

Thankyou - looking forward too it

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RE: Railway repair - 11/25/2017 6:17:53 PM   
FaneFlugt.DK


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Thanks for the answer... must be a statistical anomaly that my Rumanian rail crew failed 4 turns of repair with a succes rate of 57 % while embarked. Kind of annoyed me, since if you need things fixed the hard industrial way, in the EU, you hire Rumanians.

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RE: Railway repair - 11/25/2017 6:32:12 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FaneFlugt.DK

Thanks for the answer... must be a statistical anomaly that my Rumanian rail crew failed 4 turns of repair with a succes rate of 57 % while embarked. Kind of annoyed me, since if you need things fixed the hard industrial way, in the EU, you hire Rumanians.

There's always the D10 or D20 dice roll... in case you know challenges from AD&D, Fahnenflüchtiger LOL

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RE: Railway repair - 11/25/2017 6:44:12 PM   
FaneFlugt.DK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink


quote:

ORIGINAL: FaneFlugt.DK

Thanks for the answer... must be a statistical anomaly that my Rumanian rail crew failed 4 turns of repair with a succes rate of 57 % while embarked. Kind of annoyed me, since if you need things fixed the hard industrial way, in the EU, you hire Rumanians.

There's always the D10 or D20 dice roll... in case you know challenges from AD&D, Fahnenflüchtiger LOL


Haha, sure do, we all "FaneFlugt" from time to time :)

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RE: Railway repair - 11/25/2017 10:38:48 PM   
sPzAbt653


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It sounds like you may be playing Directive 21. If so, there is a 'Directive 21 Background Briefing' doc in the scenario folder. See section 43 for a description of rail repair in this scenario.

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RE: Railway repair - 11/26/2017 9:12:37 AM   
FaneFlugt.DK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

It sounds like you may be playing Directive 21. If so, there is a 'Directive 21 Background Briefing' doc in the scenario folder. See section 43 for a description of rail repair in this scenario.


Thats the one, great scenario, apart from the 197th german inf HQ that dosent have any trucks but in such a large scenario something have to go wrong I have read the word file and it has a section about rail repair but it is not that well explained. Does anyone know what the oil well symbol in Rumania does in that scenario? i get the mine in Finland but the oil well is not mentioned in the scenario explanation?

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RE: Railway repair - 11/26/2017 2:42:04 PM   
sPzAbt653


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None of the 'second line' Inf HQ's have trucks on purpose, to reflect the decline in German Transport Assets.

The Rail Repair units have a game engine chance to repair rail lines, in addition to their visible percentage. So if you crunch percentage numbers they will be off. These Rail Units [Bautrupps] work the same as they do in any other scenario with regards to repair. Making them Rail Only Movement [probably specific to this scenario and D41] makes them easier to manage, but a side effect is that sometimes players start over thinking and get confused. If you spread them out all over the place, most likely few will get repaired. The less areas that you have them in, statistically the more repairs you get. The design is intended to give the Germans three decent lines [AGN, AGS and AGC] that will be repaired to the front by summer of 1942. If you concentrate on only two, or one, things will go a little faster. Hope this helps.

Ploesti is explained in the Supply Section on page 4 of the Scenario Briefing. Note there are two docs with this scenario, both found in the Scenario Folder.

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RE: Railway repair - 11/26/2017 2:56:19 PM   
sanderz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
......but a side effect is that sometimes players start over thinking and get confused.........


Maybe that's because none of the posts here, or the manual, or the Directive 21 notes actually explain in sufficient detail how this process works.

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RE: Railway repair - 11/26/2017 3:00:17 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sanderz


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
......but a side effect is that sometimes players start over thinking and get confused.........


Maybe that's because none of the posts here, or the manual, or the Directive 21 notes actually explain in sufficient detail how this process works.

I will shortly have created a pure logistics tutorial set on my Tutorial '41 environment, including slides. So, stay tuned and check my thread out on a regular base. I will include RR Repair units, supply and logistic units, how weather, etc. effects those vital nuts'n bolts of the game engine. ;)

Klink, Oberst

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RE: Railway repair - 11/26/2017 3:12:02 PM   
sanderz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink


quote:

ORIGINAL: sanderz


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
......but a side effect is that sometimes players start over thinking and get confused.........


Maybe that's because none of the posts here, or the manual, or the Directive 21 notes actually explain in sufficient detail how this process works.

I will shortly have created a pure logistics tutorial set on my Tutorial '41 environment, including slides. So, stay tuned and check my thread out on a regular base. I will include RR Repair units, supply and logistic units, how weather, etc. effects those vital nuts'n bolts of the game engine. ;)

Klink, Oberst


thanks again Oberst_Klink - will do



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RE: Railway repair - 11/26/2017 4:21:14 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sanderz
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
......but a side effect is that sometimes players start over thinking and get confused.........

Maybe that's because none of the posts here, or the manual, or the Directive 21 notes actually explain in sufficient detail how this process works.

We shouldn't have to post it repeatedly when it is documented with the scenario. The Manual will not address specific scenarios when it comes to scenario specific modifications.
From the Directive 21 Background Briefing:
43. Bautrupp:
These units are for railroad repair and were designed specifically for easier playability. They can move only by rail, and will repair damaged rail lines nearest their location. Repairs take place automatically between turns, and require no action by the player. A bautrupp unit need not be directly adjacent to broken rail lines in order to make repairs, just nearby or in the vicinity. It should be sufficient to keep these units several hexes behind the front and out of harms way. The game engine repairs rail hexes each turn automatically, and it will tend to focus on broken rail lines near any bautrupp units. Therefore, the player can easily channel rail repairs to specific important areas. They will all reconstruct.


It is clear as can be. If you don't understand this, I can't help you.

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RE: Railway repair - 11/26/2017 5:47:19 PM   
FaneFlugt.DK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

None of the 'second line' Inf HQ's have trucks on purpose, to reflect the decline in German Transport Assets.

The Rail Repair units have a game engine chance to repair rail lines, in addition to their visible percentage. So if you crunch percentage numbers they will be off. These Rail Units [Bautrupps] work the same as they do in any other scenario with regards to repair. Making them Rail Only Movement [probably specific to this scenario and D41] makes them easier to manage, but a side effect is that sometimes players start over thinking and get confused. If you spread them out all over the place, most likely few will get repaired. The less areas that you have them in, statistically the more repairs you get. The design is intended to give the Germans three decent lines [AGN, AGS and AGC] that will be repaired to the front by summer of 1942. If you concentrate on only two, or one, things will go a little faster. Hope this helps.

Ploesti is explained in the Supply Section on page 4 of the Scenario Briefing. Note there are two docs with this scenario, both found in the Scenario Folder.


Ok, now it makes more sense... and I found the second document. Hidden away in "my documents" folder and not under the TOAW folder...

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RE: Railway repair - 11/26/2017 6:42:56 PM   
sanderz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanderz
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
......but a side effect is that sometimes players start over thinking and get confused.........

Maybe that's because none of the posts here, or the manual, or the Directive 21 notes actually explain in sufficient detail how this process works.

We shouldn't have to post it repeatedly when it is documented with the scenario. The Manual will not address specific scenarios when it comes to scenario specific modifications.
From the Directive 21 Background Briefing:
43. Bautrupp:
These units are for railroad repair and were designed specifically for easier playability. They can move only by rail, and will repair damaged rail lines nearest their location. Repairs take place automatically between turns, and require no action by the player. A bautrupp unit need not be directly adjacent to broken rail lines in order to make repairs, just nearby or in the vicinity. It should be sufficient to keep these units several hexes behind the front and out of harms way. The game engine repairs rail hexes each turn automatically, and it will tend to focus on broken rail lines near any bautrupp units. Therefore, the player can easily channel rail repairs to specific important areas. They will all reconstruct.


It is clear as can be. If you don't understand this, I can't help you.


its not clear at all - because if you click on the button that opens the scenario documentation it opens the "Scenario briefing" which does not include the wording above - it just says

quote:

German Rail Capacity is 9400, going to 8400 in 44 and 5400 in 45. Rail Repair will tend to occur automatically nearest 'Bautrupp' units at a maximum rate of 12 per turn and will reduce to 3 per turn on turn 43 and return to 12 per turn on turn 73. Rail Damage starts at 0% for turn 1 to represent that the Baltic states where on the same gauge as German rail, goes to 25% on turn 2, goes to 75% on turn 3, and to 100% on turn 32.


why is useful game info buried in something called "background"

also what does "just nearby or in the vicinity" - i could go the whole game and not know whether i was losing out on rail conversion - why not just give a hex range?



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RE: Railway repair - 11/26/2017 7:36:40 PM   
sPzAbt653


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From the Briefing:
Please read the background documents that accompany this scenario before playing.
Ok, it doesn't say specifically where it is located, I can see where you failed to find it without specific detailed instructions.

quote:

why not just give a hex range?

Because there is no hex range. It is another thing that couldn't be clearer, just nearby or in the vicinity.

D21 is an Advanced/Expert type scenario. If you can't comprehend the simplest easier clearest instructions, then you will certainly have problems playing the scenario. Suggest you try something more on a beginner level until you have more experience. Don't get me wrong, we would love for to enjoy playing this one, but seriously we can't be expected to put up with this sort of tedious scrutiny of every little aspect. This scenario has been around for ten years, and honestly I can't see the source of your frustration.

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RE: Railway repair - 11/26/2017 8:02:31 PM   
sanderz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

From the Briefing:
Please read the background documents that accompany this scenario before playing.
Ok, it doesn't say specifically where it is located, I can see where you failed to find it without specific detailed instructions.

quote:

why not just give a hex range?

Because there is no hex range. It is another thing that couldn't be clearer, just nearby or in the vicinity.

D21 is an Advanced/Expert type scenario. If you can't comprehend the simplest easier clearest instructions, then you will certainly have problems playing the scenario. Suggest you try something more on a beginner level until you have more experience. Don't get me wrong, we would love for to enjoy playing this one, but seriously we can't be expected to put up with this sort of tedious scrutiny of every little aspect. This scenario has been around for ten years, and honestly I can't see the source of your frustration.


thanks for the reply - but i think we just differ on whats clear - you have been playing the game for 10 years - i haven't

for example what you have now said "Because there is no hex range" is the opposite of what you have said above i.e. "It should be sufficient to keep these units several hexes behind the front and out of harms way" which implies, to me, that there is a hex range

also there is nothing Advanced/Expert about understanding the range of an effect of a unit

anyway - after all that i think i now understand how rail repair works, so again thanks






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RE: Railway repair - 11/26/2017 10:45:50 PM   
RickInVA

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

From the Briefing:
Please read the background documents that accompany this scenario before playing.
Ok, it doesn't say specifically where it is located, I can see where you failed to find it without specific detailed instructions.

quote:

why not just give a hex range?

Because there is no hex range. It is another thing that couldn't be clearer, just nearby or in the vicinity.

D21 is an Advanced/Expert type scenario. If you can't comprehend the simplest easier clearest instructions, then you will certainly have problems playing the scenario. Suggest you try something more on a beginner level until you have more experience. Don't get me wrong, we would love for to enjoy playing this one, but seriously we can't be expected to put up with this sort of tedious scrutiny of every little aspect. This scenario has been around for ten years, and honestly I can't see the source of your frustration.


So, how close is "nearby"? How far is "in the vicinity"? If you actually think that "couldn't be clearer" I'd like to sell you some "beachfront" property. The beach is nearby, water is in the vicinity. Its for sale for "a reasonable amount of money". Once you sign the contract I'll tell you how much that is.

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RE: Railway repair - 11/26/2017 11:22:45 PM   
nnason


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All,
Lets be gentle with our support/criticism. I have asked a few dumb questions in my time. At the time I asked them, they didn't seem dumb to me.

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RE: Railway repair - 11/27/2017 12:42:48 AM   
Fred98


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And I have confirmed in the Korea 1950 scenario, the railway repair unit is not required to move along railways. Nor is it limited to roads. It can move across country.

Further, it can board trains just like most other units. It cannot repair rails while is on a train.

So the movement of railroad repair units differs from one scenario to another.

.





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RE: Railway repair - 11/27/2017 2:08:46 AM   
TPOO

 

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In Directive 21 we use a special RR repair squad that was created that can only move on rail. The purpose of this was to simulate that the Axis did not repair all the rail willy-nilly and mainly focused on 3 to 4 rail repair directions during 1941. Directive 21 has rail repair set for a certain number of hexes that will be repaired automatically per turn ( a very low number). You must use these units to repair the rail line in the direction you think is most valuable to your plan of attack. Do not spread them out and concentrate on 3 to 4 lines only. These units will influence those automatic rail repair hexes to repair the rail they are adjacent to but no guarantee. If you spread the RR squads out to much the percentage chance goes down. I believe that the game engine will try to repair the first damage rail first and so on. It may seem futile at first sometimes but you can repair rail to historical destinations if you are strategic in your planning. By Summer of 42 you will be able to have sufficient rail to all of the front. This way of RR repair adds an additional layer of randomness to the scenario and will be somewhat different every time you play it.

The regular RR unit in TOAW IV can move through any hex and land on an un-repaired RR hex and possibly repairing it on the next turn by manually repairing the RR hex. In FITE2 scenario this is the type of RR repair unit that is used. It is another way of doing RR repair but less random.


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RE: Railway repair - 11/27/2017 4:06:31 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

thanks for the reply - but i think we just differ on whats clear - you have been playing the game for 10 years - i haven't

I've been playing TOAW for over ten years, this scenario for ten years. Maybe this is the cause of some confusion. TOAW is a game system, but each scenario is different and while they all adhere to the functions of the game system's engine, individual scenarios will differ from each other based on the individual scenario design.

quote:

for example what you have now said "Because there is no hex range" is the opposite of what you have said above i.e. "It should be sufficient to keep these units several hexes behind the front and out of harms way" which implies, to me, that there is a hex range

Stop implying or inferring or supposing anything. You are only confusing yourself. I said there is no hex range for rail repairs, and there is none. I advised players that to keep their Rail Repair units [Bautrupp] several hexes behind the front is sufficient [because some players feel compelled to place the Bautrupps right up at the front, exposing them to combat, which is not a good thing]. Two different things.

quote:

also there is nothing Advanced/Expert about understanding the range of an effect of a unit

Obviously there is. I state exactly what the game engine does in this scenario, it tends to repair rail lines nearby. Nearby. Close to. In the vicinity of. Proximate to.

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RE: Railway repair - 11/27/2017 4:09:08 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

So the movement of railroad repair units differs from one scenario to another.

Not at all, but it could. You need to read the Scenario Documentation for each scenario.

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RE: Railway repair - 11/27/2017 7:59:34 AM   
sanderz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
A bautrupp unit need not be directly adjacent to broken rail lines in order to make repairs, just nearby or in the vicinity. It should be sufficient to keep these units several hexes behind the front and out of harms way. The game engine repairs rail hexes each turn automatically, and it will tend to focus on broken rail lines near any bautrupp units.


There is a clear implication here that there is a "range of effect" and you do not mention that there is actually no range limitation. Presumably you could park all the bautrupp in Berlin and they could still repair railroads.


Looking back at some of the other things you have said:

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
If you spread them out all over the place, most likely few will get repaired.

So the chance of repair goes down the further apart you place the units? So there is a range after all?

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
The less areas that you have them in, statistically the more repairs you get.

This also implies the chance to repair changes based on location of units. Is that the case?

New players are not mind readers.

Writing clear guidelines is an Advanced/Expert type skill. If you can't write simple and clear instructions then ask for help.

All i was trying to do was get some clarification of some rules that were a bit vague, try and see things from the point of view of the person asking the question rather than just give a lazy elite players reply. Also, it would help if the replies you do give weren't so condescending.










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Post #: 24
RE: Railway repair - 11/27/2017 9:35:27 AM   
larryfulkerson


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I have a memory of being confused about the D21 way of doing rail repairs myself.
I've learned to move them within two hexes of the target rail and let it sit there
for a turn. I DO tend to spread them out more than I should and not a whole lot of
repairing is going on at the moment but I'll group them better and give you guys
a full report on the difference.

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Post #: 25
RE: Railway repair - 11/27/2017 12:51:16 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

There is a clear implication here that there is a "range of effect" and you do not mention that there is actually no range limitation.

Nope, there is no range of effect and no implication of one.

quote:

Presumably you could park all the bautrupp in Berlin and they could still repair railroads.

Finally something has reached thru to you.

quote:

So the chance of repair goes down the further apart you place the units?

Again, making stuff up.

quote:

This also implies the chance to repair changes based on location of units. Is that the case?

Obviously, the more chances that you have goes up in one area if you have more Bautrupps located in that area.

quote:

rather than just give a lazy elite players reply. Also, it would help if the replies you do give weren't so condescending.

I don't think anyone would agree with you that my answers here have been lazy or elitist. I certainly don't, I've bent over backwards in an attempt to help you in understanding something that is different yet elegantly simple, and greatly improves the play-ability of a large scenario. Its obvious that you are more concerned with silly attempts to pick apart my words and find false errors, indicating an underlying frustration that motivates you. Most likely you have understood Bautrupps from the beginning, and for some reason are bent on wasting everyone's time with nonsense. No need to reply any further in order to get a response from me, I will not read your posts.

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Post #: 26
RE: Railway repair - 11/27/2017 4:01:48 PM   
FaneFlugt.DK


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If you guys where in a pub having This discussion I would have found it funny. On the internet it is just akward.

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Post #: 27
RE: Railway repair - 11/27/2017 6:50:16 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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CQ: I think I, as one of the most reasonable (and perhaps respected person?!) ppl on earth, can settle the argument... and I mean it. I explained every aspect at the new Tutorial '42 thread. So, as Uncle Larry always told me - friends. :)

Klink, Oberst

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
(Marcus Porcius Cato Censorius)

Visit the Gefechtsstand!

(in reply to FaneFlugt.DK)
Post #: 28
RE: Railway repair - 11/27/2017 6:57:41 PM   
sanderz

 

Posts: 808
Joined: 1/8/2009
From: Devon, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

CQ: I think I, as one of the most reasonable (and perhaps respected person?!) ppl on earth


you forgot to mention "modest"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink, can settle the argument... and I mean it. I explained every aspect at the new Tutorial '42 thread. So, as Uncle Larry always told me - friends. :)

Klink, Oberst


i have already downloaded it and will have a look through it tomorrow

many thanks

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 29
RE: Railway repair - 11/27/2017 7:04:49 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 2844
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FaneFlugt.DK

If you guys where in a pub having This discussion I would have found it funny. On the internet it is just akward.

Been to Devon (Sanderz place; Danmark as well, but back then as a teen, so no beer with Danske barn!)

Klink, Oberst

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
(Marcus Porcius Cato Censorius)

Visit the Gefechtsstand!

(in reply to FaneFlugt.DK)
Post #: 30
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