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RE: TOAW4 - 2/9/2018 8:39:14 PM   
navekaoy

 

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A lot of good points have already been made, so I won’t reiterate those but rather add something I haven’t seen anybody mention yet: transparency. The inner workings of ATG are far more transparent than those of TOAW(3 at least, haven’t played 4 yet, but I assume they’re similar in this regard). Now, whether you consider this a good thing or not, or whether it even matters to you, is something else. Some people complain about complex computer wargames that are totally impentrable: they want their games to be like boardgames, in the sense that you can understand most or all of the rules, because if you don’t understand how the game works, you can’t really appreciate the import of the decisions you’re making; in fact, you’re almost not making decisios, according to this argument. Many computer wargames are like this, and for the most part I don’t have a problem with it. But ATG stands out as a shining example of a game where everything is theoretically open to player knowledge. True, I don’t typically look at the detailed combat report to understand exactly how combat works, but the point is that I could. Moreover, I can read the detailed stats of the units and, armed with a decent idea of how combat works, I can get a more detailed sense of what’s going to happen and why.

TOAW has much less detailed stats but much more complicated combat resolution equations (apparently). I’m fine developing an instinct for the combat system and playing by feel - that’s usually what ends up with ATG anyway, and it’s theoretically more “realistic.” Other areas, however, are a bit too opaque for my tastes. For example, in TOAW3 at least, when you watch the review of the enemy’s turn, it gives you no indication of the number of units lost on each side (maybe they changed that in TOAW4, someone else can jump in here) - you just see retreats, unit evaporations, and successful defenses. That’s a bit too opaque for my tastes. And because you can’t see behind the scenes or the nitty gritty details of the units, it’s sometimes hard to get excited about having some really badass tanks vs. some tin can light tanks. One can level this complaint against games like WitW/E as well, though in those cases you can at least turn the combat detail resolution way up and sit for an hour to see exactly what unit destroyed what other unit. The upshot, however, is that ATG feels “gamier,” but in a good way, like a really complicated and interesting boardgame that does all the work of calculation for you.

At any rate, I like both games for different things, and while I don’t think absolute transparency is necessary for a good game, I do think ATG trumps TOAW with respect to transparency in a meaningful way.

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 31
RE: TOAW4 - 4/27/2018 3:38:29 AM   
lion_of_judah


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not worth the money!

(in reply to falco148)
Post #: 32
RE: TOAW4 - 8/17/2018 4:48:51 PM   
altipueri

 

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I came back here and realised I contributed to this thread earlier in the year.

@navekaoy In TOAW 3 you get a list of individual losses - down to individual tanks, AT guns, squads - you press the little shield at the bottom of the combat summary pop up that says e.g. German losses 2% US losses 5%. Pressing the other shield gives the losses for the other side.

Re: Turns and time effluxion:


Suppose you have a scenario with two separate battles going on - one North; one South


In ATG you can fight all you want in the North until all your AP are used up. See the results. Then you move on to the South. Depending on the result in the North you may now decide to pull back or press on, but you can effectively start the turn or day again for the South.

In TOAW you must decide what you want to attack in the North (but not yet press resolve combat) then decide what you want to move or attack in the South. Then press to resolve all attacks so far. Thus both battles get resolved as if they happened almost simultaneously. If you decide to play it more like ATG you can do the North attacks first and resolve just them. But then you may find they took up most of the day whilst your guys in the South were sitting round drinking tea (if they were British).So in the South you now only have part of a day left.


I've just spent the day avoiding work by playing both ATG and TOAW - in both cases not having played for a while. I don't play enough TOAW to get version 4 until it is in the sale - but it does seem to have added even more details and options.

ATG is more enjoyable though.





(in reply to lion_of_judah)
Post #: 33
RE: TOAW4 - 8/20/2018 3:49:13 PM   
RobS61


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Joined: 6/28/2018
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda

I think Koger developed the movement management system a long time ago and it is way outdated now and should either be replaced or simply thrown out and free movement used. As is, with units that should be able to attack not being able to, it probably induces more unrealism than it promotes realism.

20 years ago, to be exact, 1998.
I bought the original and the system didn't click for me, so I got rid of it and never looked back. From everything I've seen, heard and read in the last 20 years, everything that's been tacked on to it just doesn't fix the fundamental faults.
Among other things, and what few people know, is that the game was originally not even designed to be played by email. Of and by itself, the fact that basic design features such as PBEM had to shoehorned into the game speaks volumes about the basic design faults. Overall, it was a very short-sighted design, imo.
I had bought a number of this designer's previous games, like Red Lightning, Conflict: Middle East and Conflict: Korea, and they all had fundamental, game-breaking flaws. TOAW was and is the last time I spent any money on this designer's products.

< Message edited by RobS61 -- 8/25/2018 5:30:09 AM >

(in reply to Zaratoughda)
Post #: 34
RE: TOAW4 - 8/30/2018 2:53:11 AM   
lion_of_judah


Posts: 1896
Joined: 1/8/2007
Status: offline
I broke down and bought it

(in reply to lion_of_judah)
Post #: 35
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