TOAW4
Moderator: Vic
RE: TOAW4
I have....complicated game. I am playing the tutorial and it's a terrible tutorial...Got more out of the "let's play" videos. As far as it being good I'll have to get back to you on that....the AI is much smarter than the AI in ATG.
RE: TOAW4
I don't have TOAW4, although I have each of the three previous versions. There are a couple differences.
1. TOAW is basically an operational level game with a strength on specific historical scenarios. By operational, I mean a planned action in a specific geographic area during a fixed time period. The objectives are defined by the scenario rule, i.e., your superiors. Your role is to assume command of the operation. You don't have that much control over the makeup of your forces, or future reinforcements. There are upper-level commanders making these decisions for you, and you have to execute the operation. ATG can do this as well, but through user-made scenarios, and not out of the box, so to speak. This is basically the core of TOAW. It comes with many scenarios.
2. ATG can be extended to a strategic game with its economic engine where the player determines production and technological research. This is also done with random maps, giving a full war between regimes, and not just a specific operation. It is sort of a difference between recreating history or making an alternative history. In this regard, I think ATG has more replayability, as the random games are different every time. It isn't a matter of trying a different move, or hoping for a better random number this time; the whole world is different.
3. TOAW has a very extensive library of equipment, and I think it "scales" more easily as the hex and time scales change in the scenario. ATG can have an extensive library as well. But, it is something that the modding community will have to do, as it is not part of the core game.
4. What looks like to be a fairly big difference is that TOAW4 uses a movement then combat system. And movement is based on movement points. You move and plan a serious of attacks, and then if there is time left in your turn, you can move and fight again. In ATG, movement and combat take up action points. You can move several units, and then conduct attacks, or you can attack a unit in place and then move another unit.
5. From the TOAW4 tutorials, which look to be impossible to follow, it looks like TOAW4 might have a more realistic time-management system. Namely, that the movements are synced up to determine how time is used. For example, if a unit is moved to block the retreat of a unit, and it takes all of its movement to get there, then that attack would use up all the turn.
6. TOAW4 looks to have put effort into improving naval units and their combat. ATG AI doesn't use ships well. It won't use carriers, and it won't use surface ships to bombard a hex prior to an amphibious landing.
7. Being newer, I suspect the TOAW4 AI is a bit stronger. But, it generally has less to worry about, namely, it doesn't deal with production, and the long-term strategic aspects. And, the ATG AI has improved its combat. The ATG AI also has some issues in structure of the units. For example, it will sometimes fail to optimize a mixed unit's movement capability.
8. In many ways, the Decisive Campaigns series is a set of operational campaigns, much like TOAW, based on the ATG engines.
9. ATG is moddable in many ways.
Like all things, it depends on what you are looking for. If you want to play many different detailed historical actions, then TOAW4 is a good choice. If you want the random game, and lead your "country", then ATG offers something few others can. Same if you want to mod the heck out of it. ATG, though, can also do the scenarios, it just needs a lot of work put into it do so.
1. TOAW is basically an operational level game with a strength on specific historical scenarios. By operational, I mean a planned action in a specific geographic area during a fixed time period. The objectives are defined by the scenario rule, i.e., your superiors. Your role is to assume command of the operation. You don't have that much control over the makeup of your forces, or future reinforcements. There are upper-level commanders making these decisions for you, and you have to execute the operation. ATG can do this as well, but through user-made scenarios, and not out of the box, so to speak. This is basically the core of TOAW. It comes with many scenarios.
2. ATG can be extended to a strategic game with its economic engine where the player determines production and technological research. This is also done with random maps, giving a full war between regimes, and not just a specific operation. It is sort of a difference between recreating history or making an alternative history. In this regard, I think ATG has more replayability, as the random games are different every time. It isn't a matter of trying a different move, or hoping for a better random number this time; the whole world is different.
3. TOAW has a very extensive library of equipment, and I think it "scales" more easily as the hex and time scales change in the scenario. ATG can have an extensive library as well. But, it is something that the modding community will have to do, as it is not part of the core game.
4. What looks like to be a fairly big difference is that TOAW4 uses a movement then combat system. And movement is based on movement points. You move and plan a serious of attacks, and then if there is time left in your turn, you can move and fight again. In ATG, movement and combat take up action points. You can move several units, and then conduct attacks, or you can attack a unit in place and then move another unit.
5. From the TOAW4 tutorials, which look to be impossible to follow, it looks like TOAW4 might have a more realistic time-management system. Namely, that the movements are synced up to determine how time is used. For example, if a unit is moved to block the retreat of a unit, and it takes all of its movement to get there, then that attack would use up all the turn.
6. TOAW4 looks to have put effort into improving naval units and their combat. ATG AI doesn't use ships well. It won't use carriers, and it won't use surface ships to bombard a hex prior to an amphibious landing.
7. Being newer, I suspect the TOAW4 AI is a bit stronger. But, it generally has less to worry about, namely, it doesn't deal with production, and the long-term strategic aspects. And, the ATG AI has improved its combat. The ATG AI also has some issues in structure of the units. For example, it will sometimes fail to optimize a mixed unit's movement capability.
8. In many ways, the Decisive Campaigns series is a set of operational campaigns, much like TOAW, based on the ATG engines.
9. ATG is moddable in many ways.
Like all things, it depends on what you are looking for. If you want to play many different detailed historical actions, then TOAW4 is a good choice. If you want the random game, and lead your "country", then ATG offers something few others can. Same if you want to mod the heck out of it. ATG, though, can also do the scenarios, it just needs a lot of work put into it do so.
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork -- Edward Abbey
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lion_of_judah
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RE: TOAW4
I don't see any point in wasting money on TOAW IV if you still have only two sides and cannot produce anything like you can in ATG, so for me unless TOAW IV has added these, then nope I will not buy it
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Zaratoughda
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RE: TOAW4
I think this pretty much sumarizes TOAW3 vs ATG.
I have TOAW3 and MANY scenarios but have not played it in a while.
The problem I have with TOAW3, is when you resolve a combat the game removes movement points from every unit on your side as if they had been in the combat. What this means is you have to manage this all over your front and this gets to be a major PAIN. I suggested they make free movement and combat an option but they would not go for it (too bad).
The big advantage of TOAW is the user generated scenario pool. You can get reasonably good scenarios on just about EVERYTHING (Franco-Prussian War, Seven Weeks War, Battle of Little Big Horn, WW3, Russo-Japenese War, etc, etc). I have no idea if all of these scenarios can be used with TOAW4.
IMO TOAW is much better than ATG when it comes to historical scenarios, albeit with the movement/combat problem.
Bottom line, I have not played TOAW3 in some time now, while I play random generated ATG, every day.
I have TOAW3 and MANY scenarios but have not played it in a while.
The problem I have with TOAW3, is when you resolve a combat the game removes movement points from every unit on your side as if they had been in the combat. What this means is you have to manage this all over your front and this gets to be a major PAIN. I suggested they make free movement and combat an option but they would not go for it (too bad).
The big advantage of TOAW is the user generated scenario pool. You can get reasonably good scenarios on just about EVERYTHING (Franco-Prussian War, Seven Weeks War, Battle of Little Big Horn, WW3, Russo-Japenese War, etc, etc). I have no idea if all of these scenarios can be used with TOAW4.
IMO TOAW is much better than ATG when it comes to historical scenarios, albeit with the movement/combat problem.
Bottom line, I have not played TOAW3 in some time now, while I play random generated ATG, every day.
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ernieschwitz
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RE: TOAW4
I can answer that one.
The answer is a yes. ATG is completely backwards compatible with AT.
The answer is a yes. ATG is completely backwards compatible with AT.
Creator of High Quality Scenarios for:
- Advanced Tactics Gold
DC: Warsaw to Paris
DC: Community Project.
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CSO_Talorgan
- Posts: 783
- Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:53 pm
RE: TOAW4
In TOAW rivers flow through the centers of hexes; not along the hex sides. I just cannot understand that.
> Does not compute
> Does not compute
RE: TOAW4
I bought TOAW IV, TOAW and ATG are brothers, they are the two most flexile wargames ever built.
TOAW IV is better than ATG in the following aspects
1-Better optimized (it can run more units and a bigger variety of equipment without significant slowing)
2-Editor is far easier to use
3-More scenarios
4-Better for operational scenarios
5-Automatic correction of scale/movement according to map size/time scale
6-Better vanilla database
ATG is better in the follwing aspects
1-Allows for a much more sophisticated combat system (we can simulate ASW and night fighters, for instance)
2-Much better editor (also much more difficult to use)
3-Much better logistical system
4-Allows more than 2 players
5-Much better for strategic scenarios
Both games have a somewhat defficient but funcional naval system with ATG able to play better in strategic scenarios. TOAW now can simulate ship damage repair, but lacks completely submarines and sea supply interdiction. Also has a misterious and too complicated system to calculate anti ship ratings for aircraft.
Both games have a reasonable AI in small scenarios and a terrible one for big scenarios or mods.
I would take TOAW IV to build operational scenarios and ATG to build monster scenarios. I would like to see ATG to incorporate some of the naval improvements made by TOAW IV but I still thing the naval engine of ATG is better.
TOAW IV is better than ATG in the following aspects
1-Better optimized (it can run more units and a bigger variety of equipment without significant slowing)
2-Editor is far easier to use
3-More scenarios
4-Better for operational scenarios
5-Automatic correction of scale/movement according to map size/time scale
6-Better vanilla database
ATG is better in the follwing aspects
1-Allows for a much more sophisticated combat system (we can simulate ASW and night fighters, for instance)
2-Much better editor (also much more difficult to use)
3-Much better logistical system
4-Allows more than 2 players
5-Much better for strategic scenarios
Both games have a somewhat defficient but funcional naval system with ATG able to play better in strategic scenarios. TOAW now can simulate ship damage repair, but lacks completely submarines and sea supply interdiction. Also has a misterious and too complicated system to calculate anti ship ratings for aircraft.
Both games have a reasonable AI in small scenarios and a terrible one for big scenarios or mods.
I would take TOAW IV to build operational scenarios and ATG to build monster scenarios. I would like to see ATG to incorporate some of the naval improvements made by TOAW IV but I still thing the naval engine of ATG is better.
RE: TOAW4
Thanks for the info Bombar & others. I think I'll go ahead and get TOAW4. Its actually available here in China. Would be nice if theres a pool of players
who play PBEM. I like playing against others as opposed to playing against AI which can be rather tedious. Shame that it has only a 2-player system though.
who play PBEM. I like playing against others as opposed to playing against AI which can be rather tedious. Shame that it has only a 2-player system though.
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Zaratoughda
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RE: TOAW4
ORIGINAL: altipueri
OT - Zaratoughda - I think I had some mods you made for the original AT - do they work with ATG? Thanks
I have no idea. In any case Vic incorporated some of the things I did in his later versions.
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Zaratoughda
- Posts: 714
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:00 pm
- Location: NE Pa, USA
RE: TOAW4
I think I should add here... there were some things in the TOAW4 announcement that made me think that MAYBE they had fixed the movement management system so I went over there to the forums to find out and... well, looks like they have made some improvements but, still the same old TOAW.
In other words, a great game for scenario designers but, unlike ATG, the DC series, and games like WITE, the playability of the game is at best suspect.
If you go to the web site 'Rugged Defense', which is not mentioned in the forums but where they keep essentially ALL of the huge amount of user designed scenarios, you will see that you can get a scenario on just about anything.
With TOAW3, I was able to play scenarios on the Austro-Prussian War of 1866, the Russo-Japanese War, etc, etc, whereas I would not be able to find these otherwise anywhere.
But, I was playing a scenario on the Franco-Prussian War and didn't get very far because the insane movement management system kept ending the turn on me.
I think Koger developed the movement management system a long time ago and it is way outdated now and should either be replaced or simply thrown out and free movement used. As is, with units that should be able to attack not being able to, it probably induces more unrealism than it promotes realism.
To each their own I guess but, with the movement management system the way it is, not my cup of tea.
In other words, a great game for scenario designers but, unlike ATG, the DC series, and games like WITE, the playability of the game is at best suspect.
If you go to the web site 'Rugged Defense', which is not mentioned in the forums but where they keep essentially ALL of the huge amount of user designed scenarios, you will see that you can get a scenario on just about anything.
With TOAW3, I was able to play scenarios on the Austro-Prussian War of 1866, the Russo-Japanese War, etc, etc, whereas I would not be able to find these otherwise anywhere.
But, I was playing a scenario on the Franco-Prussian War and didn't get very far because the insane movement management system kept ending the turn on me.
I think Koger developed the movement management system a long time ago and it is way outdated now and should either be replaced or simply thrown out and free movement used. As is, with units that should be able to attack not being able to, it probably induces more unrealism than it promotes realism.
To each their own I guess but, with the movement management system the way it is, not my cup of tea.
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ernieschwitz
- Posts: 4245
- Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:46 pm
- Location: Denmark
RE: TOAW4
ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda
ORIGINAL: altipueri
OT - Zaratoughda - I think I had some mods you made for the original AT - do they work with ATG? Thanks
I have no idea. In any case Vic incorporated some of the things I did in his later versions.
Most everything made for the original AT can be used with ATG. Vic made sure to make it as backwards compatible as he could.
Creator of High Quality Scenarios for:
- Advanced Tactics Gold
DC: Warsaw to Paris
DC: Community Project.
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Zaratoughda
- Posts: 714
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:00 pm
- Location: NE Pa, USA
RE: TOAW4
ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz
ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda
ORIGINAL: altipueri
OT - Zaratoughda - I think I had some mods you made for the original AT - do they work with ATG? Thanks
I have no idea. In any case Vic incorporated some of the things I did in his later versions.
Most everything made for the original AT can be used with ATG. Vic made sure to make it as backwards compatible as he could.
I was able to bring it up but some things are working and some are not. Took a look at the code and it might be a challenge for me to fix it. We will see if I can get at it in depth or not.
RE: TOAW4
ATG is more enjoyable
TOAW is more realistic
The reason for the movement management in TOAW was to recognise that units can't be in two places at once and that time elapses for all units. In ATG you can attack, if that fails you can find another unit with 100 AP and bring that into attack, then maybe a third or fourth. IN TOAW it attempts to say, "well your first attack failed and that took half a day, so your second attack has only half a day left.
Even though I don't play it much TOAW is a classic - see if you can get a copy of the earlier versions - Aargh - I just (midday Christmas Day !) went to the store and see TOAW3 has been discontinued so you have to pay full price for TOAW4 (it's not in the seasonal sale). In fact I would say that's a decider. At least wait until next year when TOAW4 should be in the sale and try it then.
TOAW is more realistic
The reason for the movement management in TOAW was to recognise that units can't be in two places at once and that time elapses for all units. In ATG you can attack, if that fails you can find another unit with 100 AP and bring that into attack, then maybe a third or fourth. IN TOAW it attempts to say, "well your first attack failed and that took half a day, so your second attack has only half a day left.
Even though I don't play it much TOAW is a classic - see if you can get a copy of the earlier versions - Aargh - I just (midday Christmas Day !) went to the store and see TOAW3 has been discontinued so you have to pay full price for TOAW4 (it's not in the seasonal sale). In fact I would say that's a decider. At least wait until next year when TOAW4 should be in the sale and try it then.
RE: TOAW4
ORIGINAL: altipueri
In ATG you can attack, if that fails you can find another unit with 100 AP and bring that into attack, then maybe a third or fourth. IN TOAW it attempts to say, "well your first attack failed and that took half a day, so your second attack has only half a day left.
True.
Though the previous stack points committed are remembered, so at some point you are going to face massive penalties when you keep finding new units to repeat the attack on the same hex.
Also the startup attack penalties makes it unwise to commit troops piecemeal.
However it is interesting this TOAW with the time measurement. And although the above does the job in quite a lot of cases, it doesn't do it in all. Especially light troop density battles with weak defenders.
I am making a note here
@Bombur,
I like the idea of adding the possibility to have "individual" subformations in ATG to allow for named Ships for example that can take damage. I added it to the list.
@all,
As some of you might know I am working hard to finish Shadow Empire. After that i'll have some time to see if I can bring some new features to the existing line of games. One of the drawbacks of being a one-man-army is I cannot work on everything at the same time.
Best wishes,
Vic
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