Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

two turns in a row?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> The Operational Art of War IV >> two turns in a row? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
two turns in a row? - 11/17/2017 6:38:56 PM   
jnpoint


Posts: 524
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: Holstebro, Denmark
Status: offline
I'm playing Kasserine 42 to learn the game (and it's not going well :).
But I wonder how come that I just finished turn 7 and then it was my turn 8 without a turn to the AI in between. Can that be explained or is it a kind of a bug?
Post #: 1
RE: two turns in a row? - 11/17/2017 6:45:28 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 8489
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
10.1. Variable Initiative

< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 11/17/2017 6:46:34 PM >

(in reply to jnpoint)
Post #: 2
RE: two turns in a row? - 11/17/2017 6:46:45 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 3868
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jnpoint

I'm playing Kasserine 42 to learn the game (and it's not going well :).
But I wonder how come that I just finished turn 7 and then it was my turn 8 without a turn to the AI in between. Can that be explained or is it a kind of a bug?

It's called the 'New turn order rule'. -
New Turn Order Rules: If on, this option
will better equalize the two player-turns. The
details are listed in section 9.0.2.

Gruß nach Danmark!

Klink, Oberst


_____________________________

My Blog & on Twitter.
Visit CS Legion on Twitter & Facebook for updates.

(in reply to jnpoint)
Post #: 3
RE: two turns in a row? - 11/17/2017 7:14:25 PM   
jnpoint


Posts: 524
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: Holstebro, Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink


Gruß nach Danmark!

Klink, Oberst



Danke :)

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 4
RE: two turns in a row? - 11/17/2017 7:19:38 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 3868
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
Ikke nævne det!

Hvordan er Brigitte Nyborg, din statsminister? ;)

Klink, Oberst

_____________________________

My Blog & on Twitter.
Visit CS Legion on Twitter & Facebook for updates.

(in reply to jnpoint)
Post #: 5
RE: two turns in a row? - 11/17/2017 7:24:10 PM   
jnpoint


Posts: 524
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: Holstebro, Denmark
Status: offline
Hun er en god skuespiller, men bliver nok aldrig statsminister :)

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 6
RE: two turns in a row? - 11/17/2017 7:39:43 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 3868
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
I liked 'Borgen', a great show :)

Klink, Oberst

_____________________________

My Blog & on Twitter.
Visit CS Legion on Twitter & Facebook for updates.

(in reply to jnpoint)
Post #: 7
RE: two turns in a row? - 12/13/2017 9:25:26 AM   
secadegas

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 5/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink


quote:

ORIGINAL: jnpoint

I'm playing Kasserine 42 to learn the game (and it's not going well :).
But I wonder how come that I just finished turn 7 and then it was my turn 8 without a turn to the AI in between. Can that be explained or is it a kind of a bug?


It's called the 'New turn order rule'. -
New Turn Order Rules: If on, this option
will better equalize the two player-turns. The
details are listed in section 9.0.2.

Klink, Oberst



On TOAW III the variable initiative only had effect on human vs PO/AI games. On PBEM and hotseat there wasn't variable initiative.
Apparently, reading the manual" this wasn't changed for TOAW IV

From the manual:
"10.1. Variable Initiative
The Force defined in the Scenario as “the first player” (usually the Attacking Force) will always
move first on the first Turn of a Scenario. After that, the first player is determined by an Initiative Check. This means the order of players can change from Turn to Turn.
The Initiative Level of a Force is partly randomized, but is strongly influenced by the average Movement Allowance of all friendly Land units on the map not assigned to Formations with a Reserve status.
PBEM and Hotseat Exceptions: In PBEM and Hotseat games, the Initiative remains fixed in the
order established on the first Turn of the game."


So are you sure the New Turn rules (in effect already on TOAW III) will change the variable initiative previous rules in hotseat and PBEM games?


(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 8
RE: two turns in a row? - 12/13/2017 9:44:33 AM   
secadegas

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 5/16/2007
Status: offline
I'm testing TOAW IV with a solo / hotseat game and i could already verify that the variable initiative is not working as it is discribed in the manual.

In solo / hotseat mode the initiave doesn't remain fixed as it should.

I just don't know if this is a feature or a bug.




(in reply to secadegas)
Post #: 9
RE: two turns in a row? - 12/13/2017 8:46:59 PM   
secadegas

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 5/16/2007
Status: offline
Kept on testing and verified that either on new turn rules or "old" turn rules the variable initiative doesn't work as it should.

In solo / hotseat game - when initiative should be fixed (as per TOAW IV manual and it was on TOAW III) it is variable.
Didn't test in PBEM.

On a scenario as Europe Aflame or others where fixed initiative is a must in order to work smoothly this bug is a big problem.






< Message edited by secadegas -- 12/13/2017 8:53:04 PM >

(in reply to secadegas)
Post #: 10
RE: two turns in a row? - 12/14/2017 1:42:54 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 8489
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
New Turn Order Rules have nothing to do with Initiative Switches.

This is reproducible, and along with the Formation Report bug you reported has been posted in Development. Thanks.

(in reply to secadegas)
Post #: 11
RE: two turns in a row? - 12/14/2017 4:55:37 AM   
76mm


Posts: 3560
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
Is there any way to leave players the option of playing PBEM or hotseat games with variable initiative? I like the uncertainty that it introduces, and it's obviously possible, because that's how it's working now!

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 12
RE: two turns in a row? - 12/14/2017 3:16:11 PM   
secadegas

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 5/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

This is reproducible, and along with the Formation Report bug you reported has been posted in Development. Thanks.



Thanks for your concern and to all in the team for their dedication to this project.









(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 13
RE: two turns in a row? - 1/12/2018 4:38:48 PM   
marion61

 

Posts: 1602
Joined: 9/8/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

This is reproducible, and along with the Formation Report bug you reported has been posted in Development. Thanks.


I'm reviving this thread in the hopes that this will not be left out of the next patch.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 14
RE: two turns in a row? - 1/12/2018 5:57:02 PM   
secadegas

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 5/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marion61


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

This is reproducible, and along with the Formation Report bug you reported has been posted in Development. Thanks.


I'm reviving this thread in the hopes that this will not be left out of the next patch.



+1


(in reply to marion61)
Post #: 15
RE: two turns in a row? - 6/4/2018 1:24:59 PM   
76mm


Posts: 3560
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
As far as I can tell, hotseat games still feature Variable Initiative, after all of these months? Is this going to be fixed at some point? Also, as per my previous request, is it possible to leave Variable Initiative as an option for hotseat games? Not sure how popular it would be, but it does add an interesting wrinkle...

(in reply to secadegas)
Post #: 16
RE: two turns in a row? - 6/4/2018 10:13:20 PM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 2/20/2016
Status: offline
Can this be switched off?
I'm finding it frustrating and cannot figure any reason why it should be there. What it supposed to simulate with half weekly turns? I'm playing in hot seat in FITE2 and it just happened twice for Soviets (in early July, seriously?) and once for Germans (in August but why?).

In IGUGO system is an odd idea in my view

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 17
RE: two turns in a row? - 6/5/2018 12:10:34 AM   
MikeJ19


Posts: 2536
Joined: 1/29/2014
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
Gliz2,

I understand your frustration, but I really enjoy the feature. It makes me think more if I move first. I know that lots of players do not like it, so it would be nice if it was an optionally feature.

Have a good day,

_____________________________

Mike

Retired Gunner

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 18
RE: two turns in a row? - 6/5/2018 7:14:57 AM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 2/20/2016
Status: offline
I artificially adds some tension, I agree.
Where is the logic behind you not being on initiative (operationally) and suddenly the enemy gets an upper hand. I mean it is not related to anything but completely random.
In FITE2 twice in July'41 when Soviets were being ripped appart this happened. And only by this events I was prevented from crossing Dvina river or capturing Zhytomir as the Soviets got double movement.
The rules are either the same for both sides with factors being changed (like initiative or organizational penalties) and not random.
In the FITE2 it really allowed for some absurdalities.

(in reply to MikeJ19)
Post #: 19
RE: two turns in a row? - 6/5/2018 11:11:46 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

Posts: 37867
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: online
I'm not sure I like variable initiative and I think that whether it works for the scenario or not depends on the size and complexity of the scenario. Little scenarios, short scenarios, it might not work out really well. In large scenarios it might not make a much difference and in monster scenarios it might not matter all.

_____________________________

What did the windmill say to the famous movie star when he met her for the very first time?
"Glad to meet you. I'm a big fan!"

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 20
RE: two turns in a row? - 6/5/2018 6:01:56 PM   
Cabido

 

Posts: 234
Joined: 12/11/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gliz2

I artificially adds some tension, I agree.
Where is the logic behind you not being on initiative (operationally) and suddenly the enemy gets an upper hand. I mean it is not related to anything but completely random.
In FITE2 twice in July'41 when Soviets were being ripped appart this happened. And only by this events I was prevented from crossing Dvina river or capturing Zhytomir as the Soviets got double movement.
The rules are either the same for both sides with factors being changed (like initiative or organizational penalties) and not random.
In the FITE2 it really allowed for some absurdalities.


It is not completely random. It takes into account movement allowances of units not in reserve status. Yet, I completely agree with Gliz2 and MikeJ19 that it should be optional. In some scenarios it can really be decisive. In a game where average performance is key (one should deal with uncertainty, obviously, like when a formation changes to reorganizing status, but you have other formations, after all), a single roll of the dice, even if influenced by known parameters, can have such a devastating effect in some scenarios that I think that we should really be able to turn it off. It can be worse than the turn burning effect the new time stamps with median rule came to prevent.

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 21
RE: two turns in a row? - 6/5/2018 9:48:58 PM   
76mm


Posts: 3560
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
I would like this feature a more if it was tied to C&C, quality and quantity of HQs, etc. (which of course is rather difficult in TOAW). To me these double-turns represent one side getting within the "decision loop" of the other side, which is wholly realistic for a side with a better/more responsive command structure.

(in reply to Cabido)
Post #: 22
RE: two turns in a row? - 6/5/2018 9:52:49 PM   
MikeJ19


Posts: 2536
Joined: 1/29/2014
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
76mm,

I agree with you. I have enjoyed this feature in my games. I feel it gives me an uncertainty that I need to plan for - and sometimes a cool advantage.

_____________________________

Mike

Retired Gunner

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 23
RE: two turns in a row? - 6/6/2018 12:54:15 AM   
Cabido

 

Posts: 234
Joined: 12/11/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I would like this feature a more if it was tied to C&C, quality and quantity of HQs, etc. (which of course is rather difficult in TOAW). To me these double-turns represent one side getting within the "decision loop" of the other side, which is wholly realistic for a side with a better/more responsive command structure.


I don't think it to be completely flawed. It works well for some scenarios and conditioning it to C&C, like you say, should make it more interesting in fact. Formation proficiency, number of HQ, proximity of formation units to HQ, etc. Yet, for some scenarios, mainly the small ones, as Larry stated, a single inversion in the order of turns can be devastating. Some small scenarios with 10-15 turns depend a lot on pace and initiative and time schedule usually is very narrow.

I don't design scenario, but perhaps adding some units with huge movement capacity on a distant location for the side that plays first may have some effect preventing the turn inversion. Well, I don't know if it would work, but this would be a hack, not really a nice solution. And I don't know if these units put on a distant location would still have an effect in assets sharing for supply, which would defeat the purpose.

< Message edited by Cabido -- 6/6/2018 12:56:29 AM >

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 24
RE: two turns in a row? - 6/6/2018 1:23:04 AM   
76mm


Posts: 3560
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
In any event, this is certainly something which needs to be patched to conform to what the manual says. I've heard nothing about an upcoming patch...

(in reply to Cabido)
Post #: 25
RE: two turns in a row? - 6/6/2018 1:35:25 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

Posts: 37867
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: online
quote:

I've heard nothing about an upcoming patch...

I believe there IS to be one but none of us has a really good grasp on when.

_____________________________

What did the windmill say to the famous movie star when he met her for the very first time?
"Glad to meet you. I'm a big fan!"

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 26
RE: two turns in a row? - 6/6/2018 4:05:26 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 8489
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

perhaps adding some units with huge movement capacity on a distant location

Several scenarios use this solution, and it can be triggered by event, which is a step above the current behavior [when it is not broken].

(in reply to Cabido)
Post #: 27
RE: two turns in a row? - 6/6/2018 11:43:36 AM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 2/20/2016
Status: offline
FITE2 example
What on Earth is with two consequtive SOVIET turns in July'41? Sorry guys is a monster game not a small and this have immerse impact on the pace of Germam advance (which by the way cannot come close to the historical rates even with no enemy resistance).
Suddenly the Soviets qain double-movement (as they can move for the whole week) thus they can effectively block any advance or breajthrough possibilities. Again what this should simulate? The Soviet good organization and logistics?

I can only see a value in the very granular scenarios where the turn represents like half an hour. This would be triggered by some bold action or achievement that would change the momentum a bit.

But generally in this system and engine it's an abberation for which (so farl I have not found any logical explanation. In the end it gives one side an unfair and unrealist advantage.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 28
RE: two turns in a row? - 6/8/2018 1:35:36 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

Posts: 37867
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: online
quote:

But generally in this system and engine it's an abberation for which (so farl I have not found any logical explanation. In the end it gives one side an unfair and unrealist advantage.

I like your explaination and reasoning. I agree with you. And the developers agree with you. There's quite possibly
a fix for this in the next patch. Cross your fingers.

_____________________________

What did the windmill say to the famous movie star when he met her for the very first time?
"Glad to meet you. I'm a big fan!"

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 29
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> The Operational Art of War IV >> two turns in a row? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.201