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Japanese Copy Norden? - 11/14/2017 4:30:12 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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The Japanese captured at least 2 B17Ds and 1 B17E-all flyable. I'm sure they had other opporutnities to capture an intact Nordon bombsight if not with these planes.

Any one know of that? Did they attempt to make their own version?
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RE: Japanese Copy Norden? - 11/14/2017 5:05:34 PM   
jwolf

 

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The Germans had the Norden bombsight via espionage before the war. I don't know if they shared this tech with the Japanese, though.

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RE: Japanese Copy Norden? - 11/14/2017 5:35:40 PM   
RisingSun


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The Japs probably had the blue prints, but don't think they ever gotten into it. Require huge amount of resources to build and didn't have the right tools and/or equipment to successfully testing it.

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RE: Japanese Copy Norden? - 11/14/2017 5:38:53 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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But the TBF/SBD had them also. One has to figure they captured at least one intact, no?

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RE: Japanese Copy Norden? - 11/14/2017 6:16:39 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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And why would the Germans share their ME 262 techonology with the Japanese and not the Nordon??? Doesn't make sense.

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RE: Japanese Copy Norden? - 11/14/2017 6:20:14 PM   
Lecivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

But the TBF/SBD had them also. One has to figure they captured at least one intact, no?


The U.S. Navy was involved in the Norden, but results were horrible, and what few Nordens installed were discontinued in 1942.

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RE: Japanese Copy Norden? - 11/14/2017 6:31:32 PM   
crsutton


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I doubt that Japan had the industrial capacity to build it. They were overstretched as it was.

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RE: Japanese Copy Norden? - 11/14/2017 7:30:14 PM   
JeffroK


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They seemed perfectly able to hit their targets without it, and what was so special about it??

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RE: Japanese Copy Norden? - 11/14/2017 7:38:36 PM   
Yaab


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

And why would the Germans share their ME 262 techonology with the Japanese and not the Nordon??? Doesn't make sense.


He-177 tech was a bonus.

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RE: Japanese Copy Norden? - 11/14/2017 11:09:49 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

But the TBF/SBD had them also. One has to figure they captured at least one intact, no?


The U.S. Navy was involved in the Norden, but results were horrible, and what few Nordens installed were discontinued in 1942.

I thought the bombsight also had a built-in destruct mechanism, with orders to destroy the bombsight when abandoning the aircraft?

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RE: Japanese Copy Norden? - 11/15/2017 2:45:29 AM   
spence

 

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quote:

I thought the bombsight also had a built-in destruct mechanism, with orders to destroy the bombsight when abandoning the aircraft?


From the Wiki article on the Norden:

Since the Norden was considered a critical wartime instrument, bombardiers were required to take an oath during their training stating that they would defend its secret with their own life if necessary. In case the bomber plane should make an emergency landing on enemy territory, the bombardier would have to shoot the important parts of the Norden with a gun to disable it. As this method still would leave a nearly intact apparatus to the enemy, a thermite grenade was installed; the heat of the chemical reaction would melt the Norden into a lump of metal.[27] The Douglas TBD Devastator torpedo bomber was originally equipped with flotation bags in the wings to aid the aircrew's escape after ditching, but they were removed once the Pacific War began; this ensured that the aircraft would sink, taking the Norden with it.[44]

It's not hard to imagine that the Japanese had some production problems but it's also not hard to imagine that the Japanese could have captured some of these sights - perhaps from one of the TBDs shot down in the Marshall raid (lagoon at Kwajelein atoll IIRC).


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RE: Japanese Copy Norden? - 11/15/2017 10:05:51 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

They seemed perfectly able to hit their targets without it, and what was so special about it??


It was a pretty good bomb sight. Much better than anything else the Japanese had. Japanese bombers were not too accurate at high altitude and the vulnerability of their aircraft to Allied AA fire forced them to bomb from pretty high up. (Typically around 18,000 feet during the Guadalcanal campaign. They missed most of the time. The could have used a better sight. Everyone could have...

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RE: Japanese Copy Norden? - 11/15/2017 10:13:41 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

They seemed perfectly able to hit their targets without it, and what was so special about it??


It was a pretty good bomb sight. Much better than anything else the Japanese had. Japanese bombers were not too accurate at high altitude and the vulnerability of their aircraft to Allied AA fire forced them to bomb from pretty high up. (Typically around 18,000 feet during the Guadalcanal campaign. They missed most of the time. The could have used a better sight. Everyone could have...

How about this? Is it a better sight?






Attachment (1)

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RE: Japanese Copy Norden? - 11/15/2017 11:19:10 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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Japanese aviator operating a bomb sight, 1941-1943




Attachment (1)

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RE: Japanese Copy Norden? - 11/15/2017 11:48:02 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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Bombsight, Navy, Japanese, Type-4, Mark-1 (Norden sight head copy)

https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/bombsight-navy-japanese-type-4-mark-1-norden-sight-head-copy




Attachment (1)

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RE: Japanese Copy Norden? - 11/15/2017 11:50:41 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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"During World War II, Norden (and its subcontractors, some of which were Norden subsidiaries) and the Sperry Gyroscope Co. were the major suppliers of bombsights to the American armed forces. Sperry had been encouraged by the AAF to develop a bombsight for them that would make the AAF independent of the Navy and its Norden sight. Their sight, by Sperry, which first saw combat in 1941, had a number of important engineering advances that should have made its performance and maintenance superior to the Norden unit, but it never lived up to its promise. Also, its decade-long head start and Ted Barth’s promotional ability had fully entrenched the Norden Company’s business position with the military hierarchy."


"Further, the key people in the Sperry project for both the company and the AAF were killed in separate accidents, and Sperry’s extensive prewar involvement with companies in both Germany and Japan, including having sold a bombsight to Japan in the 1930s, did not help its position as a supplier of such a sensitive apparatus"




http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/the-norden-bombsight-accurate-beyond-belief/

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 11/15/2017 11:51:13 PM >

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RE: Japanese Copy Norden? - 11/19/2017 6:40:03 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

The Japanese captured at least 2 B17Ds and 1 B17E-all flyable. I'm sure they had other opporutnities to capture an intact Nordon bombsight if not with these planes.

Any one know of that? Did they attempt to make their own version?


SOP for the air force was to remove the bomb sights at the end of each mission. IOW they were not to be left in the A/C. Whether or not this policy was in fact strictly adhered to I don't know. So capture of an A/C in and of itself would not necessarily mean they got a bomb sight.


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