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D-Day - 11/13/2017 4:26:23 PM   
jboldt007


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D day from Britain for the allies, at least in my experience, is tough and fraught with risk (as it was historically). Of course allot depends on what is happening on the eastern front, but for the most part Germany can afford to garrison the ports and allot of the coastline in question . Historically the allies chose (in part) a short crossing to achieve surprise. In MWIF of course there is more flexibility as invasions occur from a sea boxi in one of two Sea Areas.

So do experienced players tend to do one big all or nothing invasion , or perhaps a series of smaller ‘raids’ to keep the axis off balance and to see which one “sticks”? Considerations would seem to be, other than getting an HQ ashore, grabbing a port, distance from the fatherland, and avoiding a bottleneck where you can get hemmed in - a risk it would seem of going after Brest or Denmark?
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RE: D-Day - 11/13/2017 8:23:07 PM   
paulderynck


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Raids can be a waste of resources if they get surrounded and squeezed out before they can be withdrawn. Maybe in 42 or 43 to distract the Germans from a successful campaign in Russia but you have to have the lift to pick them up again.

IMO in 44 you want to go for the "big show" and invade three or even four hexes in the same impulse. Once solidly ashore then a one hex invasion is great as an outflank close to the main force.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to jboldt007)
Post #: 2
RE: D-Day - 11/14/2017 1:32:28 AM   
jboldt007


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Thanks. It would seem that 3 hexes at least is necessary with open terrain behind to be able to achieve a breakout. I could then see a raid or paradrop to help secure the bridgehead would help as noted . The problem in the west is that the rail net is extensive and the axis can rail in enough units to stall a small bridgehead in most locations.

Having a foothold in the Mediterranean is also critical. I’ve found that achieving what the allies had achieved by ‘43 - ‘44 in MWIF is tough (but of course far from impossible).

(in reply to paulderynck)
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RE: D-Day - 11/14/2017 5:05:13 AM   
Dabrion


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Single-hex beaches are doomed usually. In a '44 France situation GE will be able to envelope you in the response impulse wherever you land (most likely even do a counter attack right away!). Single hex beaches have a close to zero chance to do successful breakouts under these conditions.

Successful D-Day invasions will need fighter cover for the invasion hexes for two impulses. You sail out in the last impulse before you roll for EOT and strike in the next. Choose connected beaches, at the very least two, better four to six, some will fail). The most important thing is to plan the following impulses. Have a detailed plan of whats going to happen in every hex when it works out. The success is basically in the logistics.

Some pointers: jump PARAs in ever other hex behind the beaches (they might die, but buy you time to swap the beaches with your armor groups that are already waiting at sea). It is reasonable to have 30% TRS spare for reorgs and exfil, since you need the beaches in good order for the swap. If you have spare ATR stack them with MTN/divs to reinforce hexes by air transport later. Once you get Ike and the dream team into France, you just need to hammer in one or two ochits to make the breakout happen. Dont start your impulse with a major invasion, rather end it with the invasion and follow up the next turn with the breakout, you want to deny your opponent as much time to react as possible before everyone gets a refill.

< Message edited by Dabrion -- 11/14/2017 5:08:12 AM >


_____________________________

“WiF is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.”
- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

(in reply to jboldt007)
Post #: 4
RE: D-Day - 11/14/2017 5:11:01 PM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

Single-hex beaches are doomed usually. In a '44 France situation GE will be able to envelope you in the response impulse wherever you land (most likely even do a counter attack right away!). Single hex beaches have a close to zero chance to do successful breakouts under these conditions.

Successful D-Day invasions will need fighter cover for the invasion hexes for two impulses. You sail out in the last impulse before you roll for EOT and strike in the next. Choose connected beaches, at the very least two, better four to six, some will fail). The most important thing is to plan the following impulses. Have a detailed plan of whats going to happen in every hex when it works out. The success is basically in the logistics.

Some pointers: jump PARAs in ever other hex behind the beaches (they might die, but buy you time to swap the beaches with your armor groups that are already waiting at sea). It is reasonable to have 30% TRS spare for reorgs and exfil, since you need the beaches in good order for the swap. If you have spare ATR stack them with MTN/divs to reinforce hexes by air transport later. Once you get Ike and the dream team into France, you just need to hammer in one or two ochits to make the breakout happen. Dont start your impulse with a major invasion, rather end it with the invasion and follow up the next turn with the breakout, you want to deny your opponent as much time to react as possible before everyone gets a refill.


That last remark is very valuable, but is also a dangerous one. Beware of an early ending of the turn when you want to invade. I've seen players who waited too long and suddenly the turn ended on a low die roll with the invasion force at sea...
So try to invade the impulse before the die has to be rolled for the turn to end. A "1" can really mess up the Wallies timetable...



_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Dabrion)
Post #: 5
RE: D-Day - 11/14/2017 9:45:30 PM   
Dabrion


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Yes, that would trade one impulse of planning security for one impulse of beach/naval asset security. I tend to value the latter higher. Only excuse would be to exploit a M/J rain impulse to sail out (will lead to better chances for a fine impulse for the invasion impulse). I have never seen the Axis pass to stop a spring/summer time D-Day, and I fail to see what they would gain from that. The invasion is going to happen in that situation.. the question rather is whose blood will turn the sea red that day (and the following days, and how many days there will be for that to happen). I think a pass would be appropriate for a S/O invasion threat, but I would not set it up like that dues to weather volatility. You'd have to do that with a CW naval + US land or a double super combined.

Not saying there is only one way..

--

Here is a basic receipt for the M/J D-Day (to address Peter's remark, move up everything by one impulse and cancel dedicated softening):

Starting M/J from +2A, A want to go first if they win (to have the weather oracle on your side), but will not reroll!
  • A-/1 [eot: na]
    wildcard impulse if going first, probably obligatory naval or whatever other theatres require
  • A2/3 [eot: na]
    combined (air), softening beaches and striking X QRF assets (if A has spare logistics HQs take air for reorg efficiency)
  • A4/5 [eot: na]
    combined (naval), sail out the whole lot, perhaps create a diversion somewhere with non-earmarked assets (naval if other theatres call for one)
  • X5/6 [eot: -1/0]
    X reaction to the choice of sea zone and repositions QRF assets and beach defenses, perhaps curing some beaches. Passing maybe..
  • A6/7 [eot: 0/1]
    this better be a fine weather impulse, double land, last minute ground strikes followed by invasions, make sure to reorg your beaches where they end up in face down
  • X7/8 [eot: 1/2]
    Panzers and HQs rush to the beaches, probably clearing out the screens, perhaps OChit overruning some and attacking a beach or two
  • A8/9 [eot: 2/3]
    CW combined, US land offensive, exfil invasion assets and swap in armored spearhead. Immediately OChit and blitz with these priorities:
    1. if your beaches are disconnected connect them laterally,
    2. if there are port hexes adjacent, blitz laterally with invasion support to secure the ports,
    3. if your beaches are connected and no ports are in reach, blitz inlands on as many connected hexes (two or three hopefully), basically pushing the whole incursion one hexrow inlands. All you need are some /R or better results. This is the most fragile phase usually. If done from less than three beach-hexes some will end up understacked and exposed to counter attack. It is also the reason single or double hex beaches are insufficient to realise the breakout reliably.

This will conserve OChits for exploitation in J/A when you might want to hammer in one per impulse to reach critical mass in France.

--

Managing Initiative:
Start the D-Day turn from a "+2A". You will be in one of these situations for the next turn:
[A: Allies, X: Axis, #% normal roll (#% with reroll)]

"+2A, A~" (X won M/J, X start, either eot)
72.00% (89.92%)

"+2A, X~" (A won M/J, A start, X eot)
64.00% (83.80%)

"+1A, A~" (X won M/J, A start, A eot)
64.00% (83.80%)

"+1A, X~" (A won M/J, A start, A eot)
55.00% (75.25%)

Basically: it is not as important to win init in the invasion turn, as it is to start it with a +2 lead. Starting with the +2 lead will deny the reroll to the opposing side and created fair chances to create a flip-flop or at he very least deny a flip-flop (flip-flop against the invaders should be a closed case).

_____________________________

“WiF is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.”
- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 6
RE: D-Day - 11/19/2017 11:41:19 PM   
jboldt007


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Joined: 4/20/2017
From: Canada
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Wow. - so far I’ve digested about 10% of this so far but it is clear that one needs to time the invasion within the turn carefully - made the mistake of getting caught at sea several times- in the pacific. If playing with amphibious units it gets to be a real logistics challenge to get all the right units in the right place at the right time- and making sure the right HQs are in place to take advantage of the O chits.; and of course the axis are watching every move. As noted it seems that critical stage is getting that one hex “breakout” and securIng a port. It seems to me that in most cases the allies should have the AirPower.

(in reply to Dabrion)
Post #: 7
RE: D-Day - 11/20/2017 5:13:04 PM   
Centuur


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Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jboldt007

Wow. - so far I’ve digested about 10% of this so far but it is clear that one needs to time the invasion within the turn carefully - made the mistake of getting caught at sea several times- in the pacific. If playing with amphibious units it gets to be a real logistics challenge to get all the right units in the right place at the right time- and making sure the right HQs are in place to take advantage of the O chits.; and of course the axis are watching every move. As noted it seems that critical stage is getting that one hex “breakout” and securIng a port. It seems to me that in most cases the allies should have the AirPower.


No air superiority means no succesfull D-Day invasion in most cases. You don't want your precious PARA's loaded on expensive ATR being shot out of the sky by Axis FTR's. It's the same at sea. A loaded TRS or AMPH is the prime target of any naval battle...

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to jboldt007)
Post #: 8
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