The early air war

[Dinglir]

I will start this thread by a clear statement: In my experience, the air war in 1941 is heavily biased in favor of the Soviets.

Disclaimer: The following is written based on the assumption that the Soviet player is both capable and willing to micromanage his airforce. If not, the Axis player will effectively be playing the air war against the AI, and should be able to gain the upper hand.

Looking at the historical situation, the Soviet airforce had serious problems figting the Luftwaffe in the early war. in 1941, the Luftwaffe was basically able to concentrate their resources over the critical sectors and gain local air superiority. For instance, in early september 1941, at the beginning of the battle of Leningrad, the Luftwaffe actually had numerical supriority over the Red Army air forces in that critical sector.

In the sectors where the Luftwaffe was not concentrated, the Soviets often had virtual air supremacy, such as in the later parts of the battle for Leningrad, when the Germans had transferred their airforces to fight over Moscow. But where the Luftwaffe went, they could gain air superiority (but never air supremacy).

In 1942, the situation was much the same. For instance, at the opening day of the actual attack on Stalingrad in late 1942, the Germans flew some 1500 sorties for the loss of two machines. It was not until the battles of Kursk and the Kuban bridgehead in 1943 that the Soviets were able to gain parity in the air.

In this game, the Luftwaffe will often be forced to fight defensively for the preservation of their strength, already from september or october 1941. So what is wrong?

Starting Experience
In 1941 most Soviet pilots had had very little training with the machines they were to fly against the Germans. For instance, one of the few Air Groups having received the IL-2 had only had time to practise takeoffs and landings and had never actuially practised combat in the planes they were issued. Few of the pilots had ever seen an RS-82 rocket they were now to use against the Germans. In fact, the Red Army doctrine dictated that the will of the proletariat would overcome all obstacles. As a result, it was better to have your men attend political rallies than actually training them for war. The latter was seen as an attempt to create an "elite" which was quite anti revolutionary. The officer purges of the 30's were very much still a factor at this time. I take this to state that the starting experience of Soviet Air Groups is way higher in this game than it should be based on actual history.

Experience gain
As has been proven by HardLuck (and myself) in many of his games, the capable Soviet player can fairly easily build up Air Group experience over the first few weeks of the war. Having an Air Group gain one or even two experience points pr turn is certainly not that difficult. What you basically have to do is to adopt a "fly and die" strategy, where you simply accept very high losses. You have the aircraft to spare, and your Air Group will gain experience from the combat. But historically, Soviet replacement pilots never had more than perhaps 10 or 12 flying hours behind them before reaching the front, and often none of them in the aircraft they were to fly against the Germans. Thus replacement pilot experience should be very low. German replacement pilots had 100's of flying hours and a far better training.

So, in game terms, a replacement pilot should not come with more than perhaps 15 or so experience points. Let us imagine an Air Group of 16 aircraft and 50 experience points losing six in a given turn (not at all an uncommon occurrence for the fall of 1941). Assuming half the pilots are lost and subsequently replaced, that would leave the Air Group with 13 pilots of 51 Exp (one point gain due to exp increase) and 3 pilots with 15 for an average of 44 Exp points! This is very far from the constant increase offered by the "Fly and die" strategy. It should be very difficult for the Soviets to build experience in their air groups when they are constantly bled by losses, but it is not. Instead, game mechanics make it possible (even quite easy) to rapidly build experience and morale in the Soviet airforce.

Combat mechanics
Granted, the manual is not really clear on the issue, but as far as I can construct the dogfighting rules, you should imagine all fighters lining up opposite each other with the bombers in line behind the defending fighters. The lines then start closing in, with the fighters firing their weapons as they get in range. Given the Soviet ability to fly a large number of aircraft, they can easily get 200 or 300 (or more) fighters lined up, so they will get quite a lot of shots away at the Germans. They will then loose, simply to being outnumbered. However, historically, most dogfights involved a lot fewer numbers than this. In fact, the fighting above the Kuban bridgehead in 1943 was considered extremely intense, often with as much as 20 or 30 aircraft involved from both sides. This is a far cry from theline of 2-300 Soviet fighters being lined up in the example above. In reality, most of the Soviet fighters flying should never find a target to shoot at. The result is that the Germans will find it very hard to maintain cohesion against an aggressive Soviet player, who can eventuallu overcome opposition by building german fatigue and sheer Soviet numbers.

Ground attacks
Historically, the support of the Luftwaffe to ground operations was immense during Barbarossa. The Luftwaffe continuously hammered artillery positions, disrupted supply lines and so on. In game terms, I have seen again and again and agian that the situation is very different. Any losses inflicted on Soviet units by the Luftwaffe is easily offset by the experience gain of those self same units. The CV of a Soviet stack is very often higher AFTER being bombed than before. My advice to any German player would be this: NEVER bomb a Soviet unit with red experience soft factor and limit bombing of Soviet units with orange experience soft factor. They will simply get stronger by being bombed! In the early game, this will basically mean that the Germans should not bomb the Soviets!

Conclusion
The result as I see it is very clear: The Axis is bound to lose the air war very early on. They will be fighting to survive from the early fall of 1941, and things will simply go from bad to worse. I have heard claims that methods exist for the Germans to offset this, but much as the fabled unicorn, I have heard the claims but never seen the evidence.

My suggestions for a future patch:

1) Lower Soviet starting experience in Air Groups considerably.
2) Impose a much stricter Experience loss from losing aircraft.
3) Make it so that an aircraft in a dogfight cannot be fired upon by more than maximum two opposing aircraft.
4) Nerf ground unit Exp gain due to being bombed considerably.

Please discuss.

PS. U2VS ROOOOOOCKS!

[EwaldvonKleist]

Any losses inflicted on Soviet units by the Luftwaffe is easily offset by the experience gain of those self same units. The CV of a Soviet stack is very often higher AFTER being bombed than before. My advice to any German player would be this: NEVER bomb a Soviet unit with red experience soft factor and limit bombing of Soviet units with orange experience soft factor. They will simply get stronger by being bombed! In the early game, this will basically mean that the Germans should not bomb the Soviets!

I find this thing especially interesting, i have to admit that I have never thought about this. How did you find this out? Did you see Soviet units turning from red to orange from one bombing run? So far my understanding has been that experience gain of ground units happens during the logistics phase? And during the logistics phase, combat units with battles gain more exp than without battles, and an air attack counts as a battle for this purpose?

Agree about the U2VS

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
So far my understanding has been that experience gain of ground units happens during the logistics phase? And during the logistics phase, combat units with battles gain more exp than without battles, and an air attack counts as a battle for this purpose?

I think there is an averaging effect involved that happens during the action phase. So even though elements might not change their experience in an action phase, bombing disproportionately affects some elements over others. And if those units removed from a unit from bombing have a different experience from the average of the unit before, the new "average" experience of the unit can change as a result. That alone though should not mean the unit is more capable in the same turn - so if it is it would have to be for a different reason.

[Dinglir]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
I find this thing especially interesting, i have to admit that I have never thought about this. How did you find this out?

I have been bombing the opposing units quite often, and I noticed that the CV's shown on the stacks were often higher after being bombed than before. Such as going from 10=34 to 10=36 (in the same turn).

I then did a small test on a scenario where I looked at a Soviet division on the first Soviet turn, noticing its morale and experience. I then redid the scenario and bombed the unit twice as the Germans with some 200 bombers. When looking at the unit again during the Soviet turn, it's Experience had climbed by an astonishing 16 points...

I see the CV of units being bombed climbing again and again and again. Normally, I would assume it is due to better intel, but when the units has a detection level of 10 before being bombed, then what?

[Dinglir]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
Agree about the U2VS

Did you know that the U2 is the only biplane ever to have been credited with downing a jet fighter in a dogfight?

In Korea, and American sabre jet stalled and crashed trying to fly slow enough to get it in its sights....

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: Dinglir
Did you know that the U2 is the only biplane ever to have been credited with downing a jet fighter in a dogfight?

In Korea, and American sabre jet stalled and crashed trying to fly slow enough to get it in its sights....

Different context but during world war two the British used Fairey Swordfish Biplane torpedo bombers to disable the Italian fleet at Taranto. The biplanes flew so slowly that the gearing of the cogs on some Italian AA guns could not track them, every time they went up a notch they went from behind to ahead of them.

[tyronec]

1) Lower Soviet starting experience in Air Groups considerably.
2) Impose a much stricter Experience loss from losing aircraft.
3) Make it so that an aircraft in a dogfight cannot be fired upon by more than maximum two opposing aircraft.
4) Nerf ground unit Exp gain due to being bombed considerably.

Points 1 & 2 would help address an important imbalance in the game, Soviet air dominance comes much too early.
Am not sure how will bombing for disruption works, my approach as Axis is mostly only to bomb units when I expect them to retreat so they can be bombed again, and again,.... After several double bombings they do seem to be more likely to rout than if never bombed at all.

Watching 'Soviet Storm' would support your general view of of the Soviet air force. One interesting feature that was new to me was the PTAB anti-tank bomblets introduced in '43. Reading biographies from both sides the Stormovik was abysmal at ground support compared to the Stuka, so perhaps these made them more effective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmgCaaS ... 4s&t=1732s

On the Swordfish have read similar for when they were attacking the Bismark.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
Agree about the U2VS

Did you know that the U2 is the only biplane ever to have been credited with downing a jet fighter in a dogfight?

In Korea, and American sabre jet stalled and crashed trying to fly slow enough to get it in its sights....

Perfect example of using the wrong plane for the wrong job. They should have sent in a helicopter and toyed with the U2 for a bit before blowing the darn thing to bits. The pilot of the jet just wanted a little red U2 symbol on the side of his plane but ended up being the one humiliated.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Any losses inflicted on Soviet units by the Luftwaffe is easily offset by the experience gain of those self same units. The CV of a Soviet stack is very often higher AFTER being bombed than before. My advice to any German player would be this: NEVER bomb a Soviet unit with red experience soft factor and limit bombing of Soviet units with orange experience soft factor. They will simply get stronger by being bombed! In the early game, this will basically mean that the Germans should not bomb the Soviets!

I find this thing especially interesting, i have to admit that I have never thought about this. How did you find this out? Did you see Soviet units turning from red to orange from one bombing run? So far my understanding has been that experience gain of ground units happens during the logistics phase? And during the logistics phase, combat units with battles gain more exp than without battles, and an air attack counts as a battle for this purpose?

Agree about the U2VS

I have to admit I haven't paid attention to the bombing runs on experience. But now that Dinglir is only bombing my Guards I wont be able to be much help.


I have always considered experience in this game a #1 priority with Morale a very close second. You will see that after the Mud turns I attack a great deal to raise said experience. It is very disheartening looking at the casualties but it is necessary. We will see how this pans out.

[morvael]

Very interesting discussion. For now I have no time to participate, but I'm reading everything.

One hint: to get reliable results you'd have to test everything in a game without fog of war. Unit strength can jump up and down as detection level changes due to bombing.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: morvael

Very interesting discussion. For now I have no time to participate, but I'm reading everything.

One hint: to get reliable results you'd have to test everything in a game without fog of war. Unit strength can jump up and down as detection level changes due to bombing.

The Air rules in my opinion are fine. How the Germans handle their planes is a very BIG reason how the Soviets get their jump in experience. If the Germans handle their planes incorrectly they will play into the Soviet game outright. Like I posted when Dinglir was playing Pelton the German Air force works with finese. Don't try to be the bully on the block or the Soviet will just swamp you with their numbers. Take a step back and look how you two (Dinglir & Tyronic) handled your German Air Force and ask how you could have done things different. I know the answer having been there and done that. I just took advantage of what you two left open.

The Germans are already destroying over 5k planes on the first turn outright (when the actual historical number was much lower for you historical people). Even now in current patch Leningrad and/or Moscow have been falling like snow in a Blizzard (which isnt historical). So how much more are we to keep giving the Germans?

[morvael]

It would be interesting to find out whether bombing units increases their experience. I think it was more due to the fact that the unit received replacements.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: morvael

It would be interesting to find out whether bombing units increases their experience. I think it was more due to the fact that the unit received replacements.

Ya, but replacements aren't received in between bombing runs is what Dinglir is saying

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: morvael

It would be interesting to find out whether bombing units increases their experience. I think it was more due to the fact that the unit received replacements.

Ya, but replacements aren't received in between bombing runs is what Dinglir is saying

Or I could be incorrect on how I interpreted what he said.

[morvael]

Every combat can be a source of experience, but maybe being bombed should not give too much knowledge regarding land war

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: morvael

Very interesting discussion. For now I have no time to participate, but I'm reading everything.

One hint: to get reliable results you'd have to test everything in a game without fog of war. Unit strength can jump up and down as detection level changes due to bombing.

The Air rules in my opinion are fine. How the Germans handle their planes is a very BIG reason how the Soviets get their jump in experience. If the Germans handle their planes incorrectly they will play into the Soviet game outright. Like I posted when Dinglir was playing Pelton the German Air force works with finese. Don't try to be the bully on the block or the Soviet will just swamp you with their numbers. Take a step back and look how you two (Dinglir & Tyronic) handled your German Air Force and ask how you could have done things different. I know the answer having been there and done that. I just took advantage of what you two left open.

The Germans are already destroying over 5k planes on the first turn outright (when the actual historical number was much lower for you historical people). Even now in current patch Leningrad and/or Moscow have been falling like snow in a Blizzard (which isnt historical). So how much more are we to keep giving the Germans?

This comment was for the Air war in Gerneral, not the ground bombing part

[Dinglir]

ORIGINAL: morvael

It would be interesting to find out whether bombing units increases their experience. I think it was more due to the fact that the unit received replacements.

To be absolutely correct, I do not know if it is experience that is increased by bombing. I can merely see that during the German turn, the CV og a stack is often higher AFTER it has been bombed than it was BEFORE the bombing.

I guess it could be because of a morale change due to having "won" the battle. The point remains that unless there is something I do not see, there seems to be little point in actually bombing the Soviets.

[Dinglir]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
The Air rules in my opinion are fine. How the Germans handle their planes is a very BIG reason how the Soviets get their jump in experience. If the Germans handle their planes incorrectly they will play into the Soviet game outright. Like I posted when Dinglir was playing Pelton the German Air force works with finese. Don't try to be the bully on the block or the Soviet will just swamp you with their numbers. Take a step back and look how you two (Dinglir & Tyronic) handled your German Air Force and ask how you could have done things different. I know the answer having been there and done that. I just took advantage of what you two left open.

In 1941, the Luftwaffe had fought a war for two years and also had the most rigorous training programme in the world for new pilots. In comparison, the Soviets had what must be the LEAST experienced airforce in the world. No matter how inept I have been at playing the Germans there is simply no way the Soviets should be able to build experience to match German pre war experience levels in a few short months.

Comparisons with my game against Pelton is also off, as I was certainly not a "capable player willing to micromanage my airforce" at the time. That game was my first real experience of WitE and I was a complete rookie. Still, by 1942 I had air supremacy over two thirds of the front and equality over the remaining third. For a rookie to do that against one of the most experienced players out there does suggest some sort of imbalance to me. That status should not have come until 1943.

Finally, the claim that "the tools are out there" is a bold claim that is hard to put to the test. i respect that you do not wish to play more games currently (neither do I), but I am inclined to disbelieve you unless presented with some sort of "proof" (AAR or otherwise). I guess we will just have to leave that one as "undecided" for now.

[Dinglir]

Here's a small qoute from my (as of yet unpublished) AAR for turn 24 against HardLuck:

At Kaluga, the first bombing attack on the three Guards Rifle divisions led to 403 disruption results while the second attack led to another 357 disruption results. Assuming 100% TOE that should mean about 3000 elements total in the three divisions or 25% of units disrupted, which translates into an extra 25% fatigue reducing CV by 8%, if I understand the manual right. Once again however, this led to an actual increase in defensive CV from 8=17 to 8=18.

[morvael]

You're sure this is not an effect of Fog of War?