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Please explain the CV options in start menu - 10/29/2017 6:08:14 PM   
tiger111

 

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How do the various CV modes eg math etc affect combat results and ech of them their affect on on map counter value. . Which mode do you use?

thankyou
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RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 10/29/2017 6:59:28 PM   
morvael


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CV math tries to offer more accurate (expected) values on counters, that better correspond to random CV that is established in every combat. Default CV mode is very inaccurate (could be even called misleading or blatantly false). The problem is most people are used to those wrong values because their their mind is compensating for the inaccuracies, so they are lost when they use the more correct mode. Also it's a bit slower, so quite bad when playing against the AI on old computers.

Artillery elements have a default CV value of 0, while they are composed of a number of men with rifles and a gun. Support elements have a default CV value of 1, while they are composed of unarmed men. Logic dictated that something armed is better than nothing, and perhaps even better than something unarmed. So you can change those default values by selecting appropriate option.

Soviet units have a lot of artillery elements, German units have a lot of support elements. Answer yourself which options favours which side :-)

Most people use default setup, just because that's the golden standard for PBEM and MP play, even if it's not the most logical choice.

(in reply to tiger111)
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RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 10/29/2017 10:54:18 PM   
thedoctorking


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But if I understand correctly, the method you use to display CV values doesn't actually affect how the engine resolves combat. "Under the hood", the engine is evaluating each element for its ability to harm opponent's elements, keeping track of ammo usage, taking into account effects of terrain and fortification and so on, intensity of combat over a number of rounds, and giving a result that often takes people by surprise when they look at the reported CV. "My guys with a CV of 52 couldn't dislodge a unit with a CV of 4, what the heck's wrong here?" comes the agonized cry. When in fact that '4-strength' unit has a bunch of artillery and support elements that are very effective at stopping your attacking waves of infantry in their tracks.

Or maybe I've misunderstood something critical?

(in reply to morvael)
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RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 10/30/2017 2:18:25 AM   
Wheat

 

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Well, I wonder if things have changed in these last patches. I use the more "accurate CV", but you still get wildly variable results when trying to attack. Since a 2-1 is a "win", I tend to think if I get a 3-1 in CV I should get a win. I have had 5-1's lose, with good units and good commanders. Gets kinda silly imo as why bother with looking at CV if the results are so variable.

This was a recent 3-1 that wasn't even close. Decent commander 6 morale, 7 inf ability, and had air support. Only a fort level of 1. All units of same command blah blah. Sorry, but this is getting beyond frustrating imo. And did I mention that the Russian units were surrounded on the PREVIOUS turn?




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Wheat -- 10/30/2017 2:25:03 AM >

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RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 10/30/2017 2:23:03 AM   
Wheat

 

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I love this too. What really is the combat value of these three surrounded Russian infantry divisions? 3 or 53? Good grief!!!!!!

Btw, this is not the battle shown in the previous post.




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< Message edited by Wheat -- 10/30/2017 2:24:14 AM >

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RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 10/30/2017 3:38:51 AM   
thedoctorking


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheat

Well, I wonder if things have changed in these last patches. I use the more "accurate CV", but you still get wildly variable results when trying to attack. Since a 2-1 is a "win", I tend to think if I get a 3-1 in CV I should get a win. I have had 5-1's lose, with good units and good commanders. Gets kinda silly imo as why bother with looking at CV if the results are so variable.

This was a recent 3-1 that wasn't even close. Decent commander 6 morale, 7 inf ability, and had air support. Only a fort level of 1. All units of same command blah blah. Sorry, but this is getting beyond frustrating imo. And did I mention that the Russian units were surrounded on the PREVIOUS turn?




I notice that your CV took a huge hit from something. I'd guess terrain, but supply, fatigue, or morale could also be an issue. If these units have been attacking for several turns, they will have a high fatigue level and that will reduce their effective combat ability proportionately. Open the unit detail window and you can see what their fatigue level is. If you look at the supply box, you can see what their supply status is. If they have a low level of ammunition or fuel, they might not contribute much to any combat they are involved in.

(in reply to Wheat)
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RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 10/30/2017 3:43:21 AM   
thedoctorking


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheat

I love this too. What really is the combat value of these three surrounded Russian infantry divisions? 3 or 53? Good grief!!!!!!

Btw, this is not the battle shown in the previous post.




The first number is the estimated CV. The equals sign means you have imperfect detection on them. I'm not sure what the second number is. If you hover over the unit in recon mode, you will get a readout on the units that includes estimated CV and supply path, which will give you an idea of how well-supplied they are. A -1 supply path means they are isolated. Which doesn't mean they don't have supplies. Go to the combat report map mode and you can see if the enemy dropped supplies to them. The Russians have an enormous number of heavy bombers that they don't dare use for bombing (at least in daylight) and so they might as well deliver supplies to isolated units during Barbarossa. Also, cities produce small amounts of supplies, so a couple of divisions in a city should be able to fight on for quite some time, giving the Germans a royal pain in the butt. Lining up a couple of infantry corps and doing a deliberate attack is usually the best solution.

(in reply to Wheat)
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RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 10/30/2017 8:28:47 AM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking
But if I understand correctly, the method you use to display CV values doesn't actually affect how the engine resolves combat.

Yes, "Better CV Math" changes nothing in how the combat is resolved, it only changes what values are displayed on the counters.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking
"Under the hood", the engine is evaluating each element for its ability to harm opponent's elements, keeping track of ammo usage, taking into account effects of terrain and fortification and so on, intensity of combat over a number of rounds, and giving a result that often takes people by surprise when they look at the reported CV. "My guys with a CV of 52 couldn't dislodge a unit with a CV of 4, what the heck's wrong here?" comes the agonized cry. When in fact that '4-strength' unit has a bunch of artillery and support elements that are very effective at stopping your attacking waves of infantry in their tracks.


Yes, with default CV settings artillery elements have 0 impact on friendly CV, so they are not visible as "counter strength". Also, all support units in the HQs, that will be assigned to combat are also not included in "counter strength", because HQ counter is always visible as CV 0 counter. On the other hand in actual combat artillery is good at reducing enemy CV in combat by destroying, damaging and disrupting elements, while non-artillery support units do both - increase your own CV and help to reduce enemy strength. So always there is the invisible part of strength, unlike in regular boardgames where you see full strength from the start, and can optimize your attacks.

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 8
RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 10/30/2017 8:33:09 AM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheat
Well, I wonder if things have changed in these last patches.


No, they didn't. It's only that random CV has very high variance, especially if your leader skills hover around 5. I will soon prepare a special table comparing (in a very simple case) default CV, better CV math, and random CV values, so you will understand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheat
I love this too. What really is the combat value of these three surrounded Russian infantry divisions? 3 or 53? Good grief!!!!!!


3 is offensive CV (their strength if they will attack), 53 is their defensive CV (their strength if they will defend, taking into account terrain, and fortifications).
Bear in mind units attacking across rivers suffer reduction in their CV, yet it's not shown on the counters until you attack.

(in reply to Wheat)
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RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 10/30/2017 8:43:08 AM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking
The first number is the estimated CV. The equals sign means you have imperfect detection on them. I'm not sure what the second number is.


X=Y means "offensive CV"="defensive CV"
X-Z means "offensive CV"-"movement points left"

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 10
RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 10/30/2017 8:27:12 PM   
morvael


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Comparison of values for 240 Rifle Squads with experience 75, fatigue 15, unit morale 75, having 70% chance to pass Infantry roll, and 80% chance to pass Morale roll.

Better CV determines expected value of random CV.
Better CV and random CV are divided by 10 extra compared to default CV to bring them more in line.
On-counter values are divided by 10 extra compared to combat values to have smaller numbers on the counters.

Dozens of other factors may modify CVs, but these are the most important when trying to determine discrepancy between default CV and random CV. These factors are:
a) rivers, which disrupt elements before combat (disrupted elements no longer count for the purposes of determining CV)
b) routed/depleted status
c) fort levels
d) dense terrain
e) fog of war
f) ski units in blizzard and snow
g) mountain troops in mountains
h) mud
i) First Winter effect (it is applied both as CV reduction AND random disruption before combat)
j) surrounded penalty
k) isolated penalty
l) unready status
m) vehicle shortage

Some of this factors are non-random (and affect on counter, pre-combat, and final combat values), while some are random (and affect only final combat values, while some - but not all - are also accounted for in better CV mode and affect counter, and pre-combat values). Finally, some factors depend on the hex the unit is in, and during battle attacking units are treated as present in the defender's hex, so the terrain they are on for the purposes of calculating CV changes.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 11/11/2017 4:52:38 AM   
keitherson


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"All units of same command blah blah."

If I'm reading this right you're saying attacks with units of different HQs perform worse in combat than when the attackers all have the same HQ? Interesting, I wish I had known that before

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RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 11/11/2017 3:42:54 PM   
thedoctorking


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quote:

ORIGINAL: keitherson


"All units of same command blah blah."

If I'm reading this right you're saying attacks with units of different HQs perform worse in combat than when the attackers all have the same HQ? Interesting, I wish I had known that before

Yeah, this shows up in the detailed combat results. I've seen deductions of like 6-10% for units of different HQ's than the "lead" unit. When you look in AAR's, you see people shuttling units around from HQ to HQ in the midst of attacks, spending 20 AP on one series of attacks.

(in reply to keitherson)
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RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 11/11/2017 4:36:56 PM   
tomeck48

 

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What qualifies as a "different HQ"? For instance my Northwest Front has 4 Army HQ and the 9 Airborne HQ attached. If I attack with the 11th Army (NW Front) and three divisions from the 9 Airborne corps are those "different HQs? What if the 9 Airborne is attached directly to 11 Army?

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RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 11/11/2017 5:20:20 PM   
thedoctorking


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Iirc, the farther away you are in chain of command terms, the greater the hit. So a unit from a different corps of the same army has a low penalty, but a unit from a different army/front would have a higher penalty.

Another good reason not to have a bunch of STAVKA armies running around.

(in reply to tomeck48)
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RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 2/8/2018 9:05:22 AM   
VigaBrand

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Comparison of values for 240 Rifle Squads with experience 75, fatigue 15, unit morale 75, having 70% chance to pass Infantry roll, and 80% chance to pass Morale roll.

Better CV determines expected value of random CV.
Better CV and random CV are divided by 10 extra compared to default CV to bring them more in line.
On-counter values are divided by 10 extra compared to combat values to have smaller numbers on the counters.

Dozens of other factors may modify CVs, but these are the most important when trying to determine discrepancy between default CV and random CV. These factors are:
a) rivers, which disrupt elements before combat (disrupted elements no longer count for the purposes of determining CV)
b) routed/depleted status
c) fort levels
d) dense terrain
e) fog of war
f) ski units in blizzard and snow
g) mountain troops in mountains
h) mud
i) First Winter effect (it is applied both as CV reduction AND random disruption before combat)
j) surrounded penalty
k) isolated penalty
l) unready status
m) vehicle shortage

Some of this factors are non-random (and affect on counter, pre-combat, and final combat values), while some are random (and affect only final combat values, while some - but not all - are also accounted for in better CV mode and affect counter, and pre-combat values). Finally, some factors depend on the hex the unit is in, and during battle attacking units are treated as present in the defender's hex, so the terrain they are on for the purposes of calculating CV changes.





Hi,
I had questions.
What is attacker inf die roll?
Is moral and experience a check? So a unit with moral 80 as an 80% chance to double his cv and 20% chance to halve its cv?
What is with initiativ roll? Doesn't it affect cv?
In the line with fatigue in the default cv there is a modifier of .95 (which is like in the manual described) but in the other columns it is a modifier from .75. Is that right?

_____________________________




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RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 2/9/2018 9:44:37 AM   
morvael


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attacker inf roll - chance to double CV of entire unit if one leader roll will succeed (either inf or mech, depending on unit TOE type).

Yes, morale and experience is used for random checks, per element slot, success means doubling at-the-moment CV, failure in this first roll followed by another failure means halving it. That's one of the reasons normal CV is so innacurate - it multiplies CV by morale/100 and experience/100, which scales completely different (between 0 and CV) than random values (either 0.5*CV, 1*CV or 2*CV), which is why "Better CV" is well, better.

Initiative affects CV indirectly, either by bringing reserve units to battle (so giving you more CV) or by increasing/reducing amount of damage your elements will make in fire combat (thus helping in reducing - or not - enemy final random CV value, it turn killed enemy will not kill your elements...).

Fatigue is non random and in all cases (normal, better, random CV) it can reduce CV by 1/3 at fatigue 100.

< Message edited by morvael -- 2/9/2018 9:46:51 AM >

(in reply to VigaBrand)
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RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 2/9/2018 11:59:05 AM   
VigaBrand

 

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Okay. I summarised for me.
Moral and Experienced had a check.
This check has two parts. If first check succesfull, the slott gets double CV. If not, second check comes. If this is succesfull the slot had normal CV. Else it is halved.
Attacker Inf roll means for infantery, chance to double the cv, but if it fails you didn't halve the cv? This is for the whole unit?
And Inf roll is the slot check? That means, if I had a division with inf and mech slots, the commander should be good in both skills?
Moral check is for the whole unit or for the slot?

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RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 2/9/2018 12:48:12 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: keitherson


"All units of same command blah blah."

If I'm reading this right you're saying attacks with units of different HQs perform worse in combat than when the attackers all have the same HQ? Interesting, I wish I had known that before


Sometimes it is worth taking the penalties because one can get more Support units into the fray. Each HQ can for example commit 7 art units so having 2 HQ’s and their compliment committed might be worth the penalty. Plus HQ’s committed from units in reserve status. Sometimes this is the only way to cross a major river, defeat urban terrain, break a stiff line etc. in my AAR I detail the combat sequence, but WITE is far more complex than simple compare odds on a CRT. Each device “fires” at a range and the results of disruption, damage, and destroyed are calculated at the end. So for example, a 210mm gun might not contribute much CV, but might in fact disrupt enemy CV affecting the finial equation. A Stuka attack in ground support can substantially reduce finial enemy CV etc.

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Laughter and tears are both responses to frustration and exhaustion. I myself prefer to laugh, since there is less cleaning up to do afterward. - Kurt Vonnegut

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RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 2/9/2018 1:08:04 PM   
morvael


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Only attacker inf/mech roll is per unit. Other rolls mentioned in the excel screenshot are per slot.

Attacker inf/mech roll may only double the CV of attacking units, never halve it. This should represent the fact that you need 2:1 to win, and thus a unit with (ideal case) CV equal to defender after taking all other factors into account still can win.

Slot inf/mech check depends on element type. Attacker inf/mech check depends on unit TOE type. So you need good mech skill for MECH INF, AFV, AC, SPW, SPG elements inside an infantry unit, and good inf skill for infantry (if any) and gun elements (though most guns have CV 0 at default setting) inside a mech unit.


(in reply to VigaBrand)
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RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 2/9/2018 5:16:59 PM   
VigaBrand

 

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Better CV will be (for me).

720 normal CV
684 CV (after 5% lost due Fatigue).
This should be on the Counter. The other values are random. And attacker die roll should not be count! This is important, because it changed the defensive values, too and it didn't happend, if you defend.

In your example:
experience and moral:
Propability that you double on one is 3/4 = 75% (right?), that nothing happens is 1/4 * 3/4 = 3/16 = 18,75% and 1/16=6,25% that your cv will be halved.
You now had results: your cv is 171 (probability is 1/256), you cv is half 342 (probability is 6/256), you cv is 684 (no change, probability 9/256+6/64), 1368 (double, 18/64) and your cv will be 2736 (4 times, probability 9/16).
This means 56,25% that you will have 2736 CV and 28% that you will have 1368 CV. This means 84,375% that you will have 2736 CV or 1368 CV.
You had 1268 CV. (by the way, you went wrong there with 0.75 multiplier instead of 0.95).

So my suggestion is, give the cv*fatigue multiplier as CV on the counter. Than you know what could happen.




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Post #: 21
RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 2/9/2018 5:36:16 PM   
No idea

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheat

I love this too. What really is the combat value of these three surrounded Russian infantry divisions? 3 or 53? Good grief!!!!!!

Btw, this is not the battle shown in the previous post.




The first number is the estimated CV. The equals sign means you have imperfect detection on them. I'm not sure what the second number is. If you hover over the unit in recon mode, you will get a readout on the units that includes estimated CV and supply path, which will give you an idea of how well-supplied they are. A -1 supply path means they are isolated. Which doesn't mean they don't have supplies. Go to the combat report map mode and you can see if the enemy dropped supplies to them. The Russians have an enormous number of heavy bombers that they don't dare use for bombing (at least in daylight) and so they might as well deliver supplies to isolated units during Barbarossa. Also, cities produce small amounts of supplies, so a couple of divisions in a city should be able to fight on for quite some time, giving the Germans a royal pain in the butt. Lining up a couple of infantry corps and doing a deliberate attack is usually the best solution.


No, the firts value is the attacking CV. The second value is the defending CV. If they are separated by - instead of = then it means attacking CV and MP left.

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 22
RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 2/10/2018 6:03:32 PM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VigaBrand

Better CV will be (for me).

720 normal CV
684 CV (after 5% lost due Fatigue).
This should be on the Counter. The other values are random. And attacker die roll should not be count! This is important, because it changed the defensive values, too and it didn't happend, if you defend.

In your example:
experience and moral:
Propability that you double on one is 3/4 = 75% (right?), that nothing happens is 1/4 * 3/4 = 3/16 = 18,75% and 1/16=6,25% that your cv will be halved.
You now had results: your cv is 171 (probability is 1/256), you cv is half 342 (probability is 6/256), you cv is 684 (no change, probability 9/256+6/64), 1368 (double, 18/64) and your cv will be 2736 (4 times, probability 9/16).
This means 56,25% that you will have 2736 CV and 28% that you will have 1368 CV. This means 84,375% that you will have 2736 CV or 1368 CV.
You had 1268 CV. (by the way, you went wrong there with 0.75 multiplier instead of 0.95).

So my suggestion is, give the cv*fatigue multiplier as CV on the counter. Than you know what could happen.





Maybe I made a mistake with fatigue. But I still thing using expected value is better than completely ignoring random factors.

If you have base value of 10, 50% chance to double it, and 25% chance to halve it, then expected value is 0.5*20+0.25*10+0.25*5=10+2.5+1.25=13.75. Random value calculated in a lot of rolls (and CV of all units involved in a fight depends on hundreds of rolls) usually floats somewhere around that expected value, though in rare cases it will of course differ a lot. Expected value is much more accurate than just pure base value. A unit with the same base value but just 25% chance to double it, and 56.25% chance to halve it will have expected value of 0.25*20+0.1875*10+56.25*5=5+1.875+2.8125=9.6875. So one unit would have a value of 14, and the other of 10, instead of both units having a value of 10. This is much more accurate assessment, and the whole purpose of "better CV" mode.

(in reply to VigaBrand)
Post #: 23
RE: Please explain the CV options in start menu - 2/12/2018 12:13:28 PM   
VigaBrand

 

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More questions.
For the 240 rifles squads would there be a dice rolled for moral or for each squad? (240 times)
I understand your point, maybe I had a "feeling" for the old cv numbers and now it will be hard, to teach me a new one.


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