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P.T. Boats - 10/27/2017 12:43:50 PM   
m10bob


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For our friends with a recent interest.

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ships/ships-pt.html






Trivia...Prior to being sunk, the crew of the P.T. 109 "borrowed" an army 37mm AT gun, removed the wheels, and lashed it to the bow of the boat.

Everybody knew when "the rich kid" was brought in to the hospital on the'canal, according to my uncle Jim, who was there.
JFK was NOT a phony war hero.

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< Message edited by m10bob -- 10/27/2017 3:51:30 PM >


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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/27/2017 12:59:42 PM   
Leandros


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Very interesting. Tks for posting! Bulkley's whole book is there, too.

Fred


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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/27/2017 2:00:38 PM   
BBfanboy


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I get a "page can't be displayed message" when I right or left-click on the link. Does that site have the JFK docs just released?

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/27/2017 2:41:31 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I get a "page can't be displayed message" when I right or left-click on the link. Does that site have the JFK docs just released?

If so, there shouldn't be a problem to open it....

Fred

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River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018F2QMEW?*Version*=1&*entries*=0

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/27/2017 5:54:09 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I get a "page can't be displayed message" when I right or left-click on the link. Does that site have the JFK docs just released?

If so, there shouldn't be a problem to open it....

Fred

CNN reported websites crashing from all the folks trying to access and download the JFK docs - mostly reporters and conspiracy theorists, I presume!

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/27/2017 10:04:11 PM   
wdolson

 

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I remember back in 1992 when Congress passed the law sealing the JFK records until this year. I was working with a guy from Iran who was fascinated with everything JFK and was lamenting he'd have to wait another 25 years to find out what was in those files.

I left 2 years later and he died of a massive heart attack the same day.

Bill

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/27/2017 10:32:13 PM   
geofflambert


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Mounting a 37mm flak gun on that plywood speedboat might be enough to sink her (is it ok to address a boat as "she"?) when fired.

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/27/2017 10:34:56 PM   
geofflambert


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m10bob, you used to have a signature that set my e-set off but no facsimile of that signature appears now. Nonetheless every time I open a thread that you have posted to my eset objects strenuously. Any idea why?

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/28/2017 12:02:50 AM   
spence

 

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quote:

(is it ok to address a boat as "she"?)


I'm not sure but I think only "English-speakers" give a ship a feminine personality. I was in the Coast Guard and I can't think of any time I heard any boat crew refer to their boat (30 footers, 40 footers, 41 footers, 44 footers as if it was feminine but I'm pretty sure I did hear the crew of an 82 foot PB refer to their boat as a "she".

Incidentally referring to the first sentence of this post I know that a ship is a "he" in both the Russian and German navies. I once asked a Frenchman what the sex of his ship was and he stared at me like I was crazy. The noun bateau is masculine though so I think if a ship has any sex in French it's probably male. Be happy to hear any further thoughts on this topic from the international community to be found here.

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/28/2017 1:15:38 AM   
NigelKentarus


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In the USN, a boat is a vessel a ship carries, ie motor whaleboat, RHIB boat, Zodiac, etc. However, all subs are boats.

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/28/2017 1:45:21 AM   
spence

 

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Do submariners refer to their boats as a "she" or an "it"? ( or a "he"?)

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/28/2017 6:38:45 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Mounting a 37mm flak gun on that plywood speedboat might be enough to sink her (is it ok to address a boat as "she"?) when fired.

They put it on the foredeck and had to reinforce everything underneath the mount very heavily. I suppose they could have reduced the propellant charge too since the barges were not that heavily armoured and engagement ranges would be fairly close. I saw pics or I would have doubted the claim myself.

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/28/2017 6:44:13 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

(is it ok to address a boat as "she"?)


I'm not sure but I think only "English-speakers" give a ship a feminine personality. I was in the Coast Guard and I can't think of any time I heard any boat crew refer to their boat (30 footers, 40 footers, 41 footers, 44 footers as if it was feminine but I'm pretty sure I did hear the crew of an 82 foot PB refer to their boat as a "she".

Incidentally referring to the first sentence of this post I know that a ship is a "he" in both the Russian and German navies. I once asked a Frenchman what the sex of his ship was and he stared at me like I was crazy. The noun bateau is masculine though so I think if a ship has any sex in French it's probably male. Be happy to hear any further thoughts on this topic from the international community to be found here.


I think the feminine pronoun is a throwback to the days when British and American sailing ships usually had a female figurehead mounted below the bowsprit for luck, even though the sailors considered it bad luck to have a real woman on board.

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/28/2017 7:25:12 AM   
Aurorus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

I'm not sure but I think only "English-speakers" give a ship a feminine personality. I was in the Coast Guard and I can't think of any time I heard any boat crew refer to their boat (30 footers, 40 footers, 41 footers, 44 footers as if it was feminine but I'm pretty sure I did hear the crew of an 82 foot PB refer to their boat as a "she".

Incidentally referring to the first sentence of this post I know that a ship is a "he" in both the Russian and German navies. I once asked a Frenchman what the sex of his ship was and he stared at me like I was crazy. The noun bateau is masculine though so I think if a ship has any sex in French it's probably male. Be happy to hear any further thoughts on this topic from the international community to be found here.


In Spanish ship, barco, is a masculine noun, and all military-class ships (portaavion - aircraft carrier) are masculine. So all pronouns that refer to these nouns are masculine as well. El, lo, etc... . It is not uncommon, however, for Spanish speakers to give their ships female names: Santa Rosa, Santa Isabela, or Nuestra Señora de Calmuchita for example. A ship with a female name can be referred to by either the masculine or the feminine pronoun, depending upon context. For example, it would be appropriate to use the feminine pronoun in Spanish in the following sentence, ¨the Santa Rosa took a full broadside, and she shuddered at the impact.¨

My German and French are very rusty, but I believe that one sees the same usage in these languages as well.

< Message edited by Aurorus -- 10/28/2017 7:46:49 AM >

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/28/2017 10:10:23 AM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NigelKentarus

In the USN, a boat is a vessel a ship carries, ie motor whaleboat, RHIB boat, Zodiac, etc. However, all subs are boats.

Is there not an international rule on this - vessels above 12 m. length, or 50 tons displacement, are formally "ships".
Otherwise, a "boat"?

Fred


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River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018F2QMEW?*Version*=1&*entries*=0

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/29/2017 3:45:34 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

m10bob, you used to have a signature that set my e-set off but no facsimile of that signature appears now. Nonetheless every time I open a thread that you have posted to my eset objects strenuously. Any idea why?


I am not an IT type but I use Firefox and have an app they offer(free) which will "locate" stuff from the past internet memory banks, even when they no longer "exist" in current internet feeds..Tyler Design used to be the site which offered me the nice B 19 picture, but it is no longer an "active" picture..I suspect this is what you are referring to?

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/29/2017 3:50:00 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Mounting a 37mm flak gun on that plywood speedboat might be enough to sink her (is it ok to address a boat as "she"?) when fired.



It was not the "flak" gun..It was the two wheeled light anti-tank gun..

The thing was capable of firing AP, HE, grape, smoke, etc.
At any rate, they never fired it in combat, and it was literally lashed to the deck with rope.






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< Message edited by m10bob -- 10/29/2017 3:54:32 PM >


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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/29/2017 4:04:33 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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"Know Your PT Boat"

https://maritime.org/doc/pt/know/index.htm




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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/29/2017 5:14:32 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Mounting a 37mm flak gun on that plywood speedboat might be enough to sink her (is it ok to address a boat as "she"?) when fired.



It was not the "flak" gun..It was the two wheeled light anti-tank gun..

The thing was capable of firing AP, HE, grape, smoke, etc.
At any rate, they never fired it in combat, and it was literally lashed to the deck with rope.






I saw b&w photos in a book on PT boats. Both the A/T guns and a 40mm Bofors. It did not appear that the A/T gun was lashed on deck in the pictures, but the angle was low so it could have been.

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/29/2017 5:22:23 PM   
m10bob


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The 109 was exactly as you see it in this pic..It was a "one off" because the crew swiped it from a local Henderson Field unit.

Later, (and you can find many pics), the USN did make a number with 20mm Oerlikon and 40mm Bofors, right off the drawing board.

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/29/2017 6:31:43 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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Kennedy may have been brave, but his decision to remain stationary was not tactically wise.

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/29/2017 6:46:02 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Kennedy may have been brave, but his decision to remain stationary was not tactically wise.

Tactical doctrine called for the PT boat to idle on 1 engine, with the other 2 engines off, which Kennedy was doing.
The question is why the DD wasn't seen earlier, either by Kennedy, his exec, or the radar operator. The radar set may not have been working.

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/29/2017 7:28:03 PM   
spence

 

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quote:

The question is why the DD wasn't seen earlier, either by Kennedy, his exec, or the radar operator. The radar set may not have been working.



I can't completely excuse Kennedy, his exec, the radar operator and anyone else on deck from having not seen those destroyers in sufficient time to avoid being rammed. It's my recollection that nobody on the Japanese destroyer saw the PT 109 until the two ships were in extremis as far as a collision was concerned. But I have been on the bridge at sea on a moonless, humid, and utterly black night in the tropics so it does seem conceivable that they just didn't those darkened ships until too late. I don't remember reading anything re the PT's radar but certainly the early surface search radars could be quirky.

I recall an incident in the 70s where I went up to the bridge to relieve the watch for the 8-midnite. Before relieving the OOD I checked the radar repeater, saw nothing there, and then started talking to the off-going OOD to see if there was anything to pass along. I was just about to say "Sir I relieve you" when all of a sudden a set of running lights went on not 25 yards just off the port bow. Those same lights then "drifted" by the porthole in the CO's cabin about 10 yards off the port side. The CO noticed. I was never so relieved that I hadn't quite said those fateful words.

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/29/2017 8:12:43 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

The question is why the DD wasn't seen earlier, either by Kennedy, his exec, or the radar operator. The radar set may not have been working.



I can't completely excuse Kennedy, his exec, the radar operator and anyone else on deck from having not seen those destroyers in sufficient time to avoid being rammed. It's my recollection that nobody on the Japanese destroyer saw the PT 109 until the two ships were in extremis as far as a collision was concerned. But I have been on the bridge at sea on a moonless, humid, and utterly black night in the tropics so it does seem conceivable that they just didn't those darkened ships until too late. I don't remember reading anything re the PT's radar but certainly the early surface search radars could be quirky.

I recall an incident in the 70s where I went up to the bridge to relieve the watch for the 8-midnite. Before relieving the OOD I checked the radar repeater, saw nothing there, and then started talking to the off-going OOD to see if there was anything to pass along. I was just about to say "Sir I relieve you" when all of a sudden a set of running lights went on not 25 yards just off the port bow. Those same lights then "drifted" by the porthole in the CO's cabin about 10 yards off the port side. The CO noticed. I was never so relieved that I hadn't quite said those fateful words.

It's been a very long time since I read a book about PT-109 (I was a kid) but your story is consistent with what I (vaguely) remember them recounting: it was pitch black and they saw nothing until the last minute.

Edit: Correct 'say' to 'saw'.

< Message edited by witpqs -- 10/29/2017 9:01:03 PM >


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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/29/2017 8:33:18 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Kennedy may have been brave, but his decision to remain stationary was not tactically wise.


If he had been stationery, would it have been wise to remain so? Perhaps the worst he would have experienced was to be inked and stamped.

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/29/2017 8:37:33 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

The question is why the DD wasn't seen earlier, either by Kennedy, his exec, or the radar operator. The radar set may not have been working.



I can't completely excuse Kennedy, his exec, the radar operator and anyone else on deck from having not seen those destroyers in sufficient time to avoid being rammed. It's my recollection that nobody on the Japanese destroyer saw the PT 109 until the two ships were in extremis as far as a collision was concerned. But I have been on the bridge at sea on a moonless, humid, and utterly black night in the tropics so it does seem conceivable that they just didn't those darkened ships until too late. I don't remember reading anything re the PT's radar but certainly the early surface search radars could be quirky.

I recall an incident in the 70s where I went up to the bridge to relieve the watch for the 8-midnite. Before relieving the OOD I checked the radar repeater, saw nothing there, and then started talking to the off-going OOD to see if there was anything to pass along. I was just about to say "Sir I relieve you" when all of a sudden a set of running lights went on not 25 yards just off the port bow. Those same lights then "drifted" by the porthole in the CO's cabin about 10 yards off the port side. The CO noticed. I was never so relieved that I hadn't quite said those fateful words.


We have within the past year had two US destroyers or frigates accidentally rammed by commercial ships. I wasn't aware that PT boats in WWII had any sort of radar but if they did it surely was inferior to what the current US Navy ships have. Right?

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/29/2017 9:04:53 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Kennedy may have been brave, but his decision to remain stationary was not tactically wise.


If he had been stationery, would it have been wise to remain so? Perhaps the worst he would have experienced was to be inked and stamped.

Oh!

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/29/2017 9:10:13 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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Could there have been a 2nd Destroyer?

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/29/2017 9:44:24 PM   
spence

 

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quote:

Could there have been a 2nd Destroyer?


I read "Japanese Destroyer Captain" a long time ago but IIRC there were 4 destroyers in column with Capt Hara in Shigure last in the column.

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RE: P.T. Boats - 10/29/2017 11:02:41 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Kennedy may have been brave, but his decision to remain stationary was not tactically wise.

Tactical doctrine called for the PT boat to idle on 1 engine, with the other 2 engines off, which Kennedy was doing.
The question is why the DD wasn't seen earlier, either by Kennedy, his exec, or the radar operator. The radar set may not have been working.

I do not believe all PT's had radar at that time (Kennedy's didn't, according to Wikipedia). They were also quite unreliable.
That said, there is such a thing as "the heat of the battle".

Fred

< Message edited by Leandros -- 10/29/2017 11:11:28 PM >


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