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Attacking dug-in units - 10/12/2017 3:15:22 PM   
blackcloud6


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I'm perplexed on attacking dug-in units, those showing a fortification level from zero on up.

I'm playing Torch to Tunisia and it is February 1943. The 8th Army is now engaged against the Axis line at Gabes and the Allies up in Tunisia are attacking a few points along the Axis line to keep pressure on them.

I have attacked a few units with fortification markers of various values. I've attacked with overwhelming combat power, in some case with stack in four hexes next to the target. I ensure that I sue the deliberate attack method to get all the forces into the attack. I have air support and have even set up air directives to hi the hex with ground attack. I have the Corps HQ in range to provide support and the HQ has artillery and engineers assigned. Every attack ends with "defender held." What am I doing wrong?

What is frustrating, is that the AI then counters at one of my 2 level fortified hexes with a few units and back my defender goes.

Another question: When the battle result screen comes up, it shows what looks like odds in big numbers a 1 for the defender and a larger number for the attacker. In some cases I've seen 1:25 but the defender still holds. I could not find a description of this in the manual.

Is there a way to see what the possible odds are before launching an attack?

On the map, the game shows my unit values as 1-14, which is 1 combat 14 movement. But the enemy is shown as 1=14. Are these the same numbers, combat and movement? If not what are they? What is the = sign for? Again, I could not find this in the manual.

BTW, I think the manual is hard to use.

Thanks in advance.
Post #: 1
RE: Attacking dug-in units - 10/12/2017 3:58:59 PM   
loki100


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From: Lochan nan balgair-dudh
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Some partial comments.

On counter, the enemy always shows an estimate of attack-defend values. As you say you can shift yours to attack-move.

Some ideas on taking out well defended position. In Torch you lack some assets but artillery and isolation are the key.

So try to isolate by interdiction ... even just on the target hex, that'll slow reinforcement and resupply. Try to attack in waves .. a weak tap, rotate out, then your real attack. The problem is the western allies are not built for attrition so you have to improvise.

Also be prepared to wait, better to let your supply build up for a few turns while hitting their supply ljnes

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(in reply to blackcloud6)
Post #: 2
RE: Attacking dug-in units - 10/12/2017 4:58:18 PM   
blackcloud6


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Some partial comments.

On counter, the enemy always shows an estimate of attack-defend values. As you say you can shift yours to attack-move.

Some ideas on taking out well defended position. In Torch you lack some assets but artillery and isolation are the key.

So try to isolate by interdiction ... even just on the target hex, that'll slow reinforcement and resupply. Try to attack in waves .. a weak tap, rotate out, then your real attack. The problem is the western allies are not built for attrition so you have to improvise.

Also be prepared to wait, better to let your supply build up for a few turns while hitting their supply ljnes


Good thoughts. I try to put them to practice. Thanks.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 3
RE: Attacking dug-in units - 10/13/2017 12:46:34 AM   
Lovenought

 

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Is there Mud?

Mud was a big issue in Tunisia, surprisingly. To the point that once an entire American armoured column had to be abandoned by the crews, Eastern Front style. And I think the mud might get added into the combat calculation at a late stage so it doesn't show up in the "Odds" display and stuff.

< Message edited by Lovenought -- 10/13/2017 12:47:14 AM >

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RE: Attacking dug-in units - 10/13/2017 4:15:08 AM   
Joel Billings


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1-14 is 1 attack CV and 14 MPs.
1=14 is 1 attach CV and 14 defense CV.

The big difference between attack and defense CVs is the defender gets terrain and fort level multipliers, while the attacker may get weather reductions. The last poster mentioned mud, and that's a good thing to look out for.

In any case, an attack that ends up at 1:25 means you have 1 to 25 odds and it will badly fail. You have to get to 2:1 or better (2 to 1) to win.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: Attacking dug-in units - 10/13/2017 1:26:03 PM   
blackcloud6


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quote:

In any case, an attack that ends up at 1:25 means you have 1 to 25 odds and it will badly fail. You have to get to 2:1 or better (2 to 1) to win.


But the screen that pops up shows the 1 on the German (defender side) and the 25 on the Allies (attacker side). This is making little sense to me.

Again, I ask, is there a way to see the odds of an attack before you launch it?

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 6
RE: Attacking dug-in units - 10/13/2017 1:46:22 PM   
blackcloud6


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OK, I just went back in the game and did some attacks. I was misreading the odds as I thought the numbers of the odds related to the side of the graphic, the defender info is on the left of the graphic, and the attacker is on the right so I thought the numbers related to the same side of the graphic, but they don't. The middle of the graphics represent a normal odds expression not in relating to the rest of the graphic. No wonder I was confused.

(in reply to blackcloud6)
Post #: 7
RE: Attacking dug-in units - 10/13/2017 3:56:23 PM   
Joel Billings


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You will see in the rollover text an estimate of attacker and defender CV values right before you click to execute an attack. These are estimates at best, and worse if FOW is on. Pre-battle CV odds are really only one factor to think about. Of course, if you have pre battle attack CV of 100 and defend CV of 10, you're looking pretty good. If it's closer to 2 to 1 at the start, you could easily lose. It doesn't account for what support units might come into the battle, reserve commitments, air power, and losses and disruption that occur during the battle. I can't remember if leadership is included (I don't think it is, or if it is there is a lot of variation with this). So again, it's only 1 factor, but it can give you some ideas, especially as you get experienced seeing lots of battles and their outcomes.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to blackcloud6)
Post #: 8
RE: Attacking dug-in units - 10/13/2017 4:43:08 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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Also, you need to look at what happened to the CV in the detail screen. You will often see something like Attacker 110->30 (meaning they had 110 cv basic before the combat evaluation but the factors Joel mentions, and leader check etc dropped it to 30. If the Defender shows 40->120, you know they benefited in this process. Your initial odds would have been 110:40 so a sure win, but what actually happened was a 30:120 thorough push back of the attack. Once you have seen this you can look further into the combat to see why maybe. Things to check: disrupted and tired (high fat) units for instance. A mistake people often make is to attack the first time and get 1.8:1 say, and think 'one more push'. However the troops involved will have been very fatigued and probably disrupted by their first attack (especially if deliberate, and the second attack will go much worse (not better). The only time I ever attack the same unit twice with the same attackers is if I hasty attack the first time and only just fail, then I might deliberately attack the second.

There is a lot to this game, and the Torch scenario makes the WA struggle to get attackers in good enough condition to attack at all let alone win (supply, mud, fatigue, low replacements etc). Persist, and you too can improve to the point where any competent player can beat you rather than humiliate you! I can beat the AI on challenging (on attack - they need more help if I am on defence = Germans usually)

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RE: Attacking dug-in units - 10/13/2017 10:39:24 PM   
blackcloud6


Posts: 323
Joined: 8/13/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Also, you need to look at what happened to the CV in the detail screen. You will often see something like Attacker 110->30 (meaning they had 110 cv basic before the combat evaluation but the factors Joel mentions, and leader check etc dropped it to 30. If the Defender shows 40->120, you know they benefited in this process. Your initial odds would have been 110:40 so a sure win, but what actually happened was a 30:120 thorough push back of the attack. Once you have seen this you can look further into the combat to see why maybe. Things to check: disrupted and tired (high fat) units for instance. A mistake people often make is to attack the first time and get 1.8:1 say, and think 'one more push'. However the troops involved will have been very fatigued and probably disrupted by their first attack (especially if deliberate, and the second attack will go much worse (not better). The only time I ever attack the same unit twice with the same attackers is if I hasty attack the first time and only just fail, then I might deliberately attack the second.

There is a lot to this game, and the Torch scenario makes the WA struggle to get attackers in good enough condition to attack at all let alone win (supply, mud, fatigue, low replacements etc). Persist, and you too can improve to the point where any competent player can beat you rather than humiliate you! I can beat the AI on challenging (on attack - they need more help if I am on defence = Germans usually)



Good stuff! Thanks.

(in reply to HMSWarspite)
Post #: 10
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