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RE: Beyond AV: Measuring LCU combat effectiveness

 
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RE: Beyond AV: Measuring LCU combat effectiveness - 1/11/2018 3:21:31 PM   
el cid again

 

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A serious problem with LCU is the inability to block a river from naval units passing.
One can build a coast defense unit - and it SOMETIMES will engage - but the only way
to know it is to observe damage on the passing ships (or their reported loss in reports).
It seems no one thought of this function. Yet although rivers were always part of WITP,
if only in very rare locations, and were considerably developed for AE (after primitive
demonstrations by RHS in the original WITP), with fine hexside options, any naval unit
can sail past any land unit with near impunity - no matter what devices are assigned.
Only (rare) coast defense algorithms permit a fight. The chances go up if one adds
detection devices - I call them "spotters" but they are really low grade surface detection
radar - and one can even add effective radar with some (but not very much) effect.

Anyway, just food for thought. Is there a way to change things? One thing I tried was
creation of a "river boom" (see the Sand Pebbles for a find portrayal of one). This is
a weird naval unit armed exclusively with short range army weapons, almost unable to move
(but every naval unit can move one hex per turn by default, even if defined as zero -
which isn't terrible modeling for a river boom moving around). These DO tend to force
a battle with passing naval units - and they do beat them up in visible battles. Or get
sunk. But they are not as effective as a real boom was in stopping the passage of transports.

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)
Post #: 31
RE: Beyond AV: Measuring LCU combat effectiveness - 1/11/2018 9:00:01 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9567
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

Okay, so I am working on a concept for the new scenario editor (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4317059) where I try to do a better job of quantifying the combat strength of an LCU. The idea is to look beyond a mere count of devices and provide some values that look into the device stats that determine their effectiveness in combat: chiefly Range, Accuracy, Effect, Penetration, Anti-Soft, Anti-Armor, Armor, and Ceiling.

My current thinking is that I will provide some "raw" ratings for a unit in terms of 5 situations:

Land Bombardment
Land Attack
Land Defense
Naval Bombardment Counterbattery/Invasion Defense
Air Defense

To go a bit deeper into the above, each LCU might have a summary that looks something like this:
AV: 168 AFV: 6 ENG: 4 NS: 0 Sup: 140 AvS: 0 ShP: 0 McS: 0 G: 16 AA: 0
Bmbd - #:16 Rng: (3/3/3/3/8) Acc: (8/8/8/8/8) A/S: 192 (12/12/12/12/12) A/A: 140 (3/3/3/3/26)
Atk - #:168 A/S: 2088(11/11/11/12/24) A/A: 240(1/1/1/1/5)
Def - #:182 A/S: 2824(5/5/11/12/24) A/A: 416(1/1/1/1/5)
Nav - #: 0
AA - #: 0


(See picture below)

So the Bmbd: line tells you what the statistics are in the Bombardment phase of combat, Reading that line it tells you

- "#:16" tells you that the unit has 16 guns eligible to fire in bombardments
- "Rng: (3/3/3/8/9)" tells you the minimum range of 100%/75%/50%/25%/0% of guns. This has an important impact upon the effectiveness of this unit in bombardment since the longer ranged guns are more likely to fire in combat. Most of those guns are range 3 - and range 3 guns are less likely to fire
- "Acc: (8/8/8/8/8)" tells you the minimum accuracy of 100%/75%/50%/25%/0% of guns. This has an impact upon whether the gun hits it's target IF it fires.
- "A/S: 192 (12/12/12/12/12)" tells you that the combined Anti-Soft rating of all devices that have an opportunity to fire is 192, with ALL devices having an anti-Soft rating of 12.
- "A/A: 140 (3/3/3/3/26)" tells you that the combined Anti-Armor rating of all devices that have an opportunity to fire is 140, with 75% of devices having an anti-Armor rating of 3, but about 25% having an anti-armor rating of 26.

I'm also thinking that the ratings will be most useful if they are considered in relation to another unit/in the context of a battle. With no point of reference, the values above are not particularly useful. However, if I can compare two units on opposite sides of a bombardment duel, I get a clearer picture of potential outcomes:

Unit 1
Bmbd - #:16 Rng: (3/3/3/3/8) Acc: (8/8/8/8/8) A/S: 192 (12/12/12/12/12) A/A: 140 (3/3/3/3/26)

vs.
Unit 2
Bmbd - #:12 Rng: (12/12/12/12/12) Acc: (6/6/6/6/6) A/S: 264 (22/22/22/22/22) A/A: 504 (42/42/42/42/42)

Unit 1 has 12 81 mm mortars and 4 75mm T41 Mtn Guns
versus
Unit 2 with 12 10cm T91 Howitzers.

Unit 2 has a range advantage as well as an effect advantage. Despite slightly lower accuracy, Unit 2 is likely to wipe the floor with Unit 1, despite the appearance of being outmatched if a count of the guns is the only point of comparison.

I intend to make it possible to define an Allied Force and a Japanese Force, then set leaders, HQ bonuses, supply situations, attack types, terrain, fortifications, detection levels, etc. and calculate a guess of the relative power of the stacks and try to project a range of outcomes. Obviously, I don't know the combat routines, but I think I can at least provide a better estimate of relative combat power than Assault Value.

Once completed, I can pretty easily pull that part out and make it available via an Android/iOS app.

I wanted to ask two questions:

1. Is anyone interested in the above?
2. Any thoughts on the kinds of information to include/what kinds of calculations you'd like to see for an LCU?





Truly made my head hurt Go ahead and do it if you would like but game experience and general knowledge of the combat units in the Pacific and Asia should go a long way towards building up intuitive knowledge in most minds.

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(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)
Post #: 32
RE: Beyond AV: Measuring LCU combat effectiveness - 1/12/2018 12:31:21 AM   
offenseman


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Joined: 2/24/2007
From: Sheridan Wyoming, USA
Status: offline
I would love to see something like this. It would be fun to see how a Marine Division stacks up against a IJA Inf Div for instance. When the data is compiled I know a statistical measure that can measure apples to oranges and still have a valid comparison. If you are interested in that PM me and we can discuss it. I am a statistician, I know how boring that is and will not subject the entire thread to that.

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Post #: 33
RE: Beyond AV: Measuring LCU combat effectiveness - 1/12/2018 1:02:51 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 11449
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: offenseman

I would love to see something like this. It would be fun to see how a Marine Division stacks up against a IJA Inf Div for instance. When the data is compiled I know a statistical measure that can measure apples to oranges and still have a valid comparison. If you are interested in that PM me and we can discuss it. I am a statistician, I know how boring that is and will not subject the entire thread to that.

Does that imply you are a mean person, or just the sum of squares? Does your doctor demand an adequate sample size? Does your hair have a skewed distribution? (Mine does! )

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to offenseman)
Post #: 34
RE: Beyond AV: Measuring LCU combat effectiveness - 1/12/2018 12:11:25 PM   
zuluhour


Posts: 5012
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline
I can't believe I read this whole thread (and sub threads) to get to male pattern baldness.....

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 35
RE: Beyond AV: Measuring LCU combat effectiveness - 1/16/2018 5:21:30 PM   
cardas

 

Posts: 184
Joined: 4/8/2016
Status: offline
This would definitely be a good idea. Simply playing the game will give you some intuitive understanding and experience on how things works and that's probably good enough for many of the veterans here. Overall however the interface is pretty horrendous in giving you the information that actually matters in the ground game. While some might be of the opinion that having some mystique behind the mechanics is well and good it does make for a pretty bad initial experience for anyone new to the game.

Would also help with modding as an additional boon. As an aside I do not believe the "Accuracy" data field matters at all for ground combat.

(in reply to zuluhour)
Post #: 36
RE: Beyond AV: Measuring LCU combat effectiveness - 1/16/2018 7:44:30 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 4715
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: offenseman

I would love to see something like this. It would be fun to see how a Marine Division stacks up against a IJA Inf Div for instance. When the data is compiled I know a statistical measure that can measure apples to oranges and still have a valid comparison. If you are interested in that PM me and we can discuss it. I am a statistician, I know how boring that is and will not subject the entire thread to that.

Does that imply you are a mean person, or just the sum of squares? Does your doctor demand an adequate sample size? Does your hair have a skewed distribution? (Mine does! )

Is a 'sum of LEAST squares' more than standardly deviated?

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 37
RE: Beyond AV: Measuring LCU combat effectiveness - 1/16/2018 9:56:39 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 11449
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: offenseman

I would love to see something like this. It would be fun to see how a Marine Division stacks up against a IJA Inf Div for instance. When the data is compiled I know a statistical measure that can measure apples to oranges and still have a valid comparison. If you are interested in that PM me and we can discuss it. I am a statistician, I know how boring that is and will not subject the entire thread to that.

Does that imply you are a mean person, or just the sum of squares? Does your doctor demand an adequate sample size? Does your hair have a skewed distribution? (Mine does! )

Is a 'sum of LEAST squares' more than standardly deviated?

We deviants have no standards - all are welcome!





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_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 38
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