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RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/6/2018 6:52:40 PM   
rustysi


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Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AndriahBlashkovich


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysiI'll try to find a link to the wire chart later if I have time, otherwise look for it under the search engine.

Ciao


Tried looking for it, but didn't yield much results, would be much obliged if you could give me some hints on what to look for exactly.


As said I'll do my best, as yet I'm catching up on the forum. Missed logging on for a bit. I have a hard copy of it, and I lost all my links when I had a system crash recently. Be patient, I'll get there...

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to AndriahBlashkovich)
Post #: 151
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/6/2018 8:13:27 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 4437
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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Let's see if this works.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2769286#

Edit:

Yup, its in there. Took me about ten minutes to find, maybe less. Search engine is a bit... well. I usually search everything with the All Topics selected and a Less Defined for the other selection. Its more an art than a science here. Hope it helps. If nothing else it should keep ya busy for a bit.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 1/6/2018 8:19:07 PM >


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 152
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/6/2018 8:16:29 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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This also?
"Once More into the Breach " http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4354969&mpage=6&key=�



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< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 1/6/2018 8:43:04 PM >

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Post #: 153
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/6/2018 8:18:36 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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Factories





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< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 1/6/2018 8:43:28 PM >

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 154
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/6/2018 8:20:33 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 4437
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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The 'wire chart' I'm referring to can be found in the link in my post above.

Edit:

Cursory check and yours looks pretty good as well.

Then again a bit incomplete it appears. I think the link above gives the whole story.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 1/6/2018 8:25:02 PM >


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 155
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/6/2018 8:29:28 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

The 'wire chart' I'm referring to can be found in the link in my post above.

Edit:

Cursory check and yours looks pretty good as well.

Then again a bit incomplete it appears. I think the link above gives the whole story.


Thought he may like a plethora of RD maps.

Ive got both the "wire" and the "list". There may be more.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 1/6/2018 8:44:42 PM >

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 156
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/6/2018 11:52:32 PM   
AndriahBlashkovich

 

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Wow, thanks a lot for taking the time to help me! These are all very helpful! ^_^

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 157
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/7/2018 5:44:29 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 4437
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AndriahBlashkovich

Wow, thanks a lot for taking the time to help me! These are all very helpful! ^_^


Glad to have been of assistance.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to AndriahBlashkovich)
Post #: 158
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/7/2018 11:52:20 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2416
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
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quote:

2. You can accelerate late models of some airframes very easily.
a. Research the A6M2-N Rufe at 5 factories of size 30.
b. Build the Ha-33 production so that you are building 150-200 extra each month by March 42. (get the pool to 500)
c. As each Rufe research factory gets fully built, switch it to A6M8. You must convert the factory one step at a
time: A6M2-N -> A6M5, A6M5 -> A6M5b, A6M5b -> A6M5c, A6M5c -> A6M8.
Remember that upgrading along the aircrafts upgrade path does not cause the factory to be damaged and it stays
FULLY REPAIRED.


Question on executing this sequence.
- Once EACH of the Rufe RD factories are at 30, immediately convert EACH to A6M5. As this does not cause damage to the factory,
Does this imply on the very next turn the factory which was just converted to A6M5 should be immediately converted to A6M5b ?

In essence each sequence change from one model to the next occurs on successive turns unit you reach the end item ?

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 159
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/8/2018 6:54:27 AM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1
Question on executing this sequence.
- Once EACH of the Rufe RD factories are at 30, immediately convert EACH to A6M5. As this does not cause damage to the factory,
Does this imply on the very next turn the factory which was just converted to A6M5 should be immediately converted to A6M5b ?

In essence each sequence change from one model to the next occurs on successive turns unit you reach the end item ?

You can do switch any time. Meaning movement through all the chain up to A6M8 can be done in one turn, as soon as Rufe factory fully repairs.

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 160
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/8/2018 7:10:29 AM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

Posts: 347
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

quote:

2. You can accelerate late models of some airframes very easily.
a. Research the A6M2-N Rufe at 5 factories of size 30.
b. Build the Ha-33 production so that you are building 150-200 extra each month by March 42. (get the pool to 500)
c. As each Rufe research factory gets fully built, switch it to A6M8. You must convert the factory one step at a
time: A6M2-N -> A6M5, A6M5 -> A6M5b, A6M5b -> A6M5c, A6M5c -> A6M8.
Remember that upgrading along the aircrafts upgrade path does not cause the factory to be damaged and it stays
FULLY REPAIRED.


Question on executing this sequence.
- Once EACH of the Rufe RD factories are at 30, immediately convert EACH to A6M5. As this does not cause damage to the factory,
Does this imply on the very next turn the factory which was just converted to A6M5 should be immediately converted to A6M5b ?

In essence each sequence change from one model to the next occurs on successive turns unit you reach the end item ?

You convert them all on one turn.

You must convert the factory one step at a time:

A6M2-N -> A6M5 - UNDAMAGED
A6M5 -> A6M5b - UNDAMAGED
A6M5b -> A6M5c - UNDAMAGED
A6M5c -> A6M8 - UNDAMAGED

A6M2-N -> A6M5b - DAMAGED
A6M2-N-> A6M5c - DAMAGED
A6M2-N-> A6M8 - DAMAGED


Remember that upgrading to the airicraft's IMMEDIATE UPGRADE does not cause the factory to be damaged and it stays FULLY REPAIRED. If you try to upgrade the A6M2-N to the A6M5b, it will be damaged. However, you can upgrade multiple times per turn. So on the turn a Rufe R&D factory repairs, you can get it all the way to the A6M8 and the R&D factory remains repaired. You MUST adhere to the upgrade path though and hit EVERY model in the upgrade sequence. One screw up and you get to start over. There is no Undo. Note that the above path applies to Scenario 1. If you are playing a different scenario, you have to check the upgrade path yourself. As always, you should save the turn prior to making any Production changes.

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 161
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/8/2018 8:00:08 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

You convert them all on one turn.

Remember that upgrading to the airicraft's IMMEDIATE UPGRADE does not cause the factory to be damaged and it stays FULLY REPAIRED. If you try to upgrade the A6M2-N to the A6M5b, it will be damaged. However, you can upgrade multiple times per turn. So on the turn a Rufe R&D factory repairs, you can get it all the way to the A6M8 and the R&D factory remains repaired. You MUST adhere to the upgrade path though and hit EVERY model in the upgrade sequence. One screw up and you get to start over. There is no Undo. Note that the above path applies to Scenario 1. If you are playing a different scenario, you have to check the upgrade path yourself. As always, you should save the turn prior to making any Production changes.



Not something I'd do or want any of my opponents to do. Research should only progress to the next once the previous is available to build unless you go straight to it.

This is probably the most gamey thing I've ever heard and it is slightly depressing to hear it countenanced.

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)
Post #: 162
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/8/2018 2:24:44 PM   
rustysi


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From: LI, NY
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quote:

Not something I'd do or want any of my opponents to do. Research should only progress to the next once the previous is available to build unless you go straight to it.

This is probably the most gamey thing I've ever heard and it is slightly depressing to hear it countenanced.


While I agree with you that each level of improvement should be researched before the next, as I wish to play. I don't consider the practice gamey, as long as both players agree. Heck I don't even use the 'Rufe path' to accelerate my Zero research. I do want the M3a though, and the 'Rufe path' skips straight to the M5, so that might have something to do with it.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 1/8/2018 2:37:26 PM >


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 163
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/8/2018 2:36:33 PM   
rustysi


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Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
There's one thing I'd like to mention, that has been alluded to above. There're some differences between different scenarios. IIRC all the A/C paths are the same, but there are some changes in engines used. The one I recall specifically is in relation to the Tojo. It uses the Ha-34 in scenario one, and the Ha-35 in scenario two. A devs decision to simplify the path, or some such. The ramifications on the game are small, but significant. The Ha-34 now becomes a one A/C engine, and one that probably won't be produced in great numbers, specifically the Helen bomber. How much would you spend to develop this path, considering that the Sally is a very similar plane? Not to mention that its already available at the start of the game.

Remember I'm talking stock scenarios here, I've no familiarity with any of the mods.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 164
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/8/2018 2:55:23 PM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

Posts: 347
Joined: 9/16/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen


quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

You convert them all on one turn.

Remember that upgrading to the airicraft's IMMEDIATE UPGRADE does not cause the factory to be damaged and it stays FULLY REPAIRED. If you try to upgrade the A6M2-N to the A6M5b, it will be damaged. However, you can upgrade multiple times per turn. So on the turn a Rufe R&D factory repairs, you can get it all the way to the A6M8 and the R&D factory remains repaired. You MUST adhere to the upgrade path though and hit EVERY model in the upgrade sequence. One screw up and you get to start over. There is no Undo. Note that the above path applies to Scenario 1. If you are playing a different scenario, you have to check the upgrade path yourself. As always, you should save the turn prior to making any Production changes.



Not something I'd do or want any of my opponents to do. Research should only progress to the next once the previous is available to build unless you go straight to it.

This is probably the most gamey thing I've ever heard and it is slightly depressing to hear it countenanced.


IMO, the A6M8 in late 1942 it more likely than the Frank in Spring '43 or any of the other acceleration projects that typically get pursued under R&D. The A6M8 was an engine change that increased the horsepower of the Zero at a cost of range. From a design perspective the effects changed the moment of the engine by 2 inches and the diameter by 3 inches, but increased hp from 1200 to 1500. Furthermore, the engine change was proposed in April 1942, but not pursued. The engine used was available in late 1942 - it was used on the Dinah III and available in larger quantities than the Sakae (one of the reasons the change was proposed). It was simply not pursued until much later in the war. All of the late war Japanese plane rely on engines that were not available at war start.

It amazes me how much people complain about this aspect of R&D given how often examples of engine changes improving aircraft performance show up in that period - A-36 to P-51, B5N1 to B5N2, Ki-21-I to Ki-21-II, etc. The single biggest roadblock seems to have been NIH syndrome. In fact, an engine change was already a part of the A6M's development, since A6M prototypes 1 and 2 used a different engine from prototype 3. Despite that change, Prototype 3 was delivered only 1-3 months after Prototype 2 (dates on delivery of the two aircraft vary somewhat in sources - it is unclear what date Prototype 2 was delivered as two different dates are cited).

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 165
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/8/2018 3:51:38 PM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

Posts: 347
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

There's one thing I'd like to mention, that has been alluded to above. There're some differences between different scenarios. IIRC all the A/C paths are the same, but there are some changes in engines used. The one I recall specifically is in relation to the Tojo. It uses the Ha-34 in scenario one, and the Ha-35 in scenario two. A devs decision to simplify the path, or some such. The ramifications on the game are small, but significant. The Ha-34 now becomes a one A/C engine, and one that probably won't be produced in great numbers, specifically the Helen bomber. How much would you spend to develop this path, considering that the Sally is a very similar plane? Not to mention that its already available at the start of the game.

Remember I'm talking stock scenarios here, I've no familiarity with any of the mods.

The Helen gets armor, a bit more range, and slightly superior defensive guns as compared to the Sally. With PDU: On, my IJA bombers are all flying either the Helen or the Nick by late 1942.






Attachment (1)

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 166
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/8/2018 8:43:08 PM   
Anomander Rake

 

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quote:

With PDU: On, my IJA bombers are all flying either the Helen or the Nick by late 1942.

You should play with PDU off. More fun, more types of aircraft, more problem with R&D choice. ;-)

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)
Post #: 167
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/8/2018 11:33:12 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2416
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anomander Rake

quote:

With PDU: On, my IJA bombers are all flying either the Helen or the Nick by late 1942.

You should play with PDU off. More fun, more types of aircraft, more problem with R&D choice. ;-)


The problem I have with PDU off is that upgrades are group specific, not airframe specific ..... Way too much logistics .....

(in reply to Anomander Rake)
Post #: 168
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/9/2018 9:02:11 AM   
Anomander Rake

 

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quote:

Way too much logistics .....

It was just such a war. Using one model of aircraft of a given type is perhaps effective, but not much fun and not realistic.

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 169
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/9/2018 11:15:10 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2416
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey


quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

quote:

2. You can accelerate late models of some airframes very easily.
a. Research the A6M2-N Rufe at 5 factories of size 30.
b. Build the Ha-33 production so that you are building 150-200 extra each month by March 42. (get the pool to 500)
c. As each Rufe research factory gets fully built, switch it to A6M8. You must convert the factory one step at a
time: A6M2-N -> A6M5, A6M5 -> A6M5b, A6M5b -> A6M5c, A6M5c -> A6M8.
Remember that upgrading along the aircrafts upgrade path does not cause the factory to be damaged and it stays
FULLY REPAIRED.


Question on executing this sequence.
- Once EACH of the Rufe RD factories are at 30, immediately convert EACH to A6M5. As this does not cause damage to the factory,
Does this imply on the very next turn the factory which was just converted to A6M5 should be immediately converted to A6M5b ?

In essence each sequence change from one model to the next occurs on successive turns unit you reach the end item ?

You convert them all on one turn.

You must convert the factory one step at a time:

A6M2-N -> A6M5 - UNDAMAGED
A6M5 -> A6M5b - UNDAMAGED
A6M5b -> A6M5c - UNDAMAGED
A6M5c -> A6M8 - UNDAMAGED

A6M2-N -> A6M5b - DAMAGED
A6M2-N-> A6M5c - DAMAGED
A6M2-N-> A6M8 - DAMAGED


Remember that upgrading to the airicraft's IMMEDIATE UPGRADE does not cause the factory to be damaged and it stays FULLY REPAIRED. If you try to upgrade the A6M2-N to the A6M5b, it will be damaged. However, you can upgrade multiple times per turn. So on the turn a Rufe R&D factory repairs, you can get it all the way to the A6M8 and the R&D factory remains repaired. You MUST adhere to the upgrade path though and hit EVERY model in the upgrade sequence. One screw up and you get to start over. There is no Undo. Note that the above path applies to Scenario 1. If you are playing a different scenario, you have to check the upgrade path yourself. As always, you should save the turn prior to making any Production changes.




OK, Question #2

The Rufe thru A6M5c use the Nak HA-35 engine ... so for the bonus points for the Rufe initially relative to engine qty >= 500, one needs to build up the Ha-35.
However, the A6M8 uses a Ha-33. So do you give up the engine bonus during the A6M8 development or does one ignore the Ha-35 benefit for the Rufe and immediate hammer on building the Ha-33 (assuming it can be built then) .... ?

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)
Post #: 170
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/10/2018 1:22:12 AM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

Posts: 347
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1
OK, Question #2

The Rufe thru A6M5c use the Nak HA-35 engine ... so for the bonus points for the Rufe initially relative to engine qty >= 500, one needs to build up the Ha-35.
However, the A6M8 uses a Ha-33. So do you give up the engine bonus during the A6M8 development or does one ignore the Ha-35 benefit for the Rufe and immediate hammer on building the Ha-33 (assuming it can be built then) .... ?


Very much an opinion questions, so here is my a$$hol3, er Opinion:

I do not research the Rufe or anything else in the Zero line other than the A6M8. I try to ramp up production of the N Ha-35 as little as possible. I see the M Ha-33 as a better investment since that engine helps me build/research more interesting mid/late war aircraft: A6M8, Ki-102 (late war FB/NF), Ki-100, Ki-46 III, L2D2 Tabby payload), G3M3 (range), and D4Y3 (replaces Val). In addition, I want Ha-33's early war for Val's and Jake's.

For the N Ha-35, I want the engines early war for A6M2's, Kate's, Babs, Oscars, and Thalia's but late war those engines offer me less compelling aircraft: J1N1, Ki-43's, Toka's, Ki-48's and Ki-115's. I don't build or fly Ki-48's (Ki-21/49/45's instead), toka's (5/6 range means any airfield it can operate from will get flattened before it can launch an offensive mission), or Ki-115's (same as Toka). Late war, the only thing I'll still be using will be the later Oscars. Eventually I'll stop even those. Building up a pool of 500 engines plus supporting production of the Kate, Zero, Oscar and means I would drastically overbuild the N Ha-35 factories to produce enough engines. That feels like a big waste of supply. If I want to accelerate the Oscars, I just build R&D factories for them and let them accelerate without the engine bonus. By the time my R&D factories convert to Production, I will not need the engines for the Zero since most of my Zero production will change to the A6M8.

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 171
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/10/2018 1:48:09 AM   
scout1


Posts: 2416
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline
ok ...fair enough ......

Do you allow the A6M* RD factories convert to production or do you take the repair hit and convert to another research leg ?

On to Question #3 ....
George (IJN) and Frank (IJA) are also desirable rides but neither have predecessors for research so guessing no real good way to accelerate
Obviously, there will have to be some hard choices as to what and when to RD ...

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)
Post #: 172
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/10/2018 8:07:15 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 5247
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Bexhill-on-Sea, E Sussex
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quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

ok ...fair enough ......

Do you allow the A6M* RD factories convert to production or do you take the repair hit and convert to another research leg ?


You've already had my two pennyworth on this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1
On to Question #3 ....
George (IJN) and Frank (IJA) are also desirable rides but neither have predecessors for research so guessing no real good way to accelerate
Obviously, there will have to be some hard choices as to what and when to RD ...


I've had 4 x 30 factories for both. It's when you expand the factories to 30 that is debatable. Right or wrong in my current game I've only expanded factories when their original due date is within a year. This is mainly to do with supply in that if you expand all your factories at the once you run out of it so I decided in this game to spread the load through when I expanded

For the George I expanded Sept 42 (due Sept 43) it due next month May 43.

For the Frank I'm carying out an ingame experiment to see how long it takes to fully repair factories. It's due Apr 44. Here's the current status

Frank Maebashi 55 from start - full repaired 24 Mar 43
Frank Maebashi 30 expanded 1 Dec 42 - repair status 14(16)
Frank Utsonomiya 30 expanded 29 Aug 42 - repair status 13(17)
Frank Osakai 30 expanded 1 Apr 43 - repair status 3(27)

It's current research level is 18% so arrival is still way off.

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 173
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/10/2018 7:47:35 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 4437
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

The Helen gets armor, a bit more range, and slightly superior defensive guns as compared to the Sally.


My point is that since these A/C are so similar, that its not really worth the investment to bring the Helen to operation as the only air-frame to use the Ha-34 engine in scen2. Might as well just go straight for the Peggy, which IIRC is the next Japanese army bomber.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 174
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/11/2018 3:52:00 AM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

Posts: 347
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

The Helen gets armor, a bit more range, and slightly superior defensive guns as compared to the Sally.


My point is that since these A/C are so similar, that its not really worth the investment to bring the Helen to operation as the only air-frame to use the Ha-34 engine in scen2. Might as well just go straight for the Peggy, which IIRC is the next Japanese army bomber.

I see your point in Scen 2, though even then I see advantages to the Helen.

- Armor is a big deal. I thought about skipping the Helen and going straight to the Peggy even in Scenario 1, but the Peggy arrives 2 years after the Helen. If the armor reduces my losses even 10%, over nearly 2 years that's a lot fewer planes and pilots to replace.
- From a payload perspective the IJA and IJN never get better bombers - everything tops out at 4 x 250kg bombs (Sally/Helen). The Peggy is actually a step down (3 x 250kg). In terms of putting bombs on target, you have to send an extra 1/3 the number bombers with the Peggy to get the same bomb load as the Helen. Of course, the Peggy adds speed (huge in air combat model) and range (11/13 goes up to 14/17) so at ranges 12 & 13 the Peggy carries a bigger load and can still strike at ranges 14-17. I see the Helen not so much being replaced by the Peggy as being augmented by it.

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 175
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/11/2018 4:24:46 AM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

Posts: 347
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen


quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

ok ...fair enough ......

Do you allow the A6M* RD factories convert to production or do you take the repair hit and convert to another research leg ?


You've already had my two pennyworth on this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1
On to Question #3 ....
George (IJN) and Frank (IJA) are also desirable rides but neither have predecessors for research so guessing no real good way to accelerate
Obviously, there will have to be some hard choices as to what and when to RD ...


I've had 4 x 30 factories for both. It's when you expand the factories to 30 that is debatable. Right or wrong in my current game I've only expanded factories when their original due date is within a year. This is mainly to do with supply in that if you expand all your factories at the once you run out of it so I decided in this game to spread the load through when I expanded

For the George I expanded Sept 42 (due Sept 43) it due next month May 43.

For the Frank I'm carying out an ingame experiment to see how long it takes to fully repair factories. It's due Apr 44. Here's the current status

Frank Maebashi 55 from start - full repaired 24 Mar 43
Frank Maebashi 30 expanded 1 Dec 42 - repair status 14(16)
Frank Utsonomiya 30 expanded 29 Aug 42 - repair status 13(17)
Frank Osakai 30 expanded 1 Apr 43 - repair status 3(27)

It's current research level is 18% so arrival is still way off.


1. No test you do in a single game would have statistical significance in answering your question because of the RNG. You could get results that falsely "prove" the idea your approach to repairs is the best option. The best option from a mathematical perspective and from a players perspective is the one that promises the best chance to accelerate your aircraft and isolates you from bad luck from the RNG.

2. Despite point 1, your results are in line with the arguments I and others have already made in this and other threads. The sooner you start repairing, the sooner you build to size 30, the sooner you will start actual R&D. In this case, had you fully expanded the other 3 factories at game start, you would likely now be accumulating your R&D at 2-4 times as fast or be very close to it. Your delay in starting R&D in those other locations is costing you months in arrival of the Frank. Note that I am not saying your results by themselves prove my point - you are not doing enough trials to draw any conclusions positive or negative. I am merely pointing out that your results are in line with the prediction made through mathematical analysis.

3. Your worry about supply is unfounded. Repairs cost the majority of your supply. Expansions cost far less supply plus HI, and Manpower. You will spend as much supply repairing to 3 x(27) as you do expanding from 0x(0) to 0x30. The expansion cost is almost an afterthought when you consider the supply cost of the fully repaired factory. Expanding 4 factories from 0x(0) to 0x(30) will cost you 120 x 100 = 12000 supply. You start with 3 million supply. Factories that do not repair do not cost supply. For aircraft that arrive late, repairs will occur infrequently. You actually spread out the cost of repair more by starting early than you do starting late. The supply drain is insignificant unless you r&d a ton of aircraft with an arrival date in 1942.

4. Conversely, every day you delay the Frank, you cost yourself supply. Every fighter you lose that could have been a Frank instead of a Tojo or Oscar or whatever is a aircraft you have to replace in the air group (costs supply) and probably a pilot you have to train (which will cost you supply in training sorties). The Franks's superior performance means they will survive far more encounters than the aircraft it replaces. Delaying the Frank by months wipes out supply and gives your opponent free VP.



< Message edited by InfiniteMonkey -- 1/11/2018 4:26:29 AM >

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 176
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/11/2018 5:45:20 AM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

Posts: 347
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1
ok ...fair enough ......

Do you allow the A6M* RD factories convert to production or do you take the repair hit and convert to another research leg ?

On to Question #3 ....
George (IJN) and Frank (IJA) are also desirable rides but neither have predecessors for research so guessing no real good way to accelerate
Obviously, there will have to be some hard choices as to what and when to RD ...

I realized I never answered your question. Most JFB agree that you want to focus your R&D on Fighters and that the R&D of the Frank is vital. JFB's are somewhat split on the value of the Sam versus Jack/George. In any case, the minimum number of r&d factories you want to put on the Frank is 5-7 x 30 R&D factories and many JFB's do numbers in the teens. There are three r&d factors in play here.

1. There are diminishing returns on R&D factories, especially given the engine bonus. Your nth factory that is actively doing r&d on an aircraft is only going to reduce your arrival time in proportion to 1/(2n). When you get to 7 or 8 repaired factory, that 8th or 9th r&d factory is making only a few days difference in your arrival date.

2. R&D factories repair at different times - there is a huge random element to it. So if you have 7 and the RNG hates you, your arrival date will be later. If it loves you, it will be early. The more r&d factories you have, the more chance you have to get a significant number of them repaired before your anticipated repair date.

3. The Engine Bonus - if you have 500 engines in the pool, you can double your R&D output at each factory each turn for the cost of 1 engine per factory. If you are going to R&D the aircraft, you probably want to have 500 engines in the pool a couple months before the anticipated repair date. The more factories you put on it, the more mandatory this is.

As a general rule, my impression is that most JFB's decide how many aircraft they want per month and divide by 30 to get the number of R&D factories they want to expand. If you want 300 Franks per month, go 10 x 30. If you want 150 per month, go 5 x 30. etc. Japan produced 13,811 fighter in 1944 alone. That's ~1150 per month. Plan accordingly.

On the Sam versus Jack/George: It is definitely a good carrier fighter, but by the time it could arrive, I do not expect to want to pursue a CV battle. Just as AFB's avoid CV battles in 1942, I avoid CV battles in 44 and beyond (assuming I even have any left). If you beach/rebuy your CV air groups and have PDU: On, you can replace the Zeros with the George and the Jack. The Sam is still arguably better than the George and the Jack in most roles, but the margin of superiority is thinner than versus any of the A6M models and the arrival date of the Jack/George is 2 YEARS sooner. This allows you more opportunity to accelerate and makes your IJN fighters more competitive at a time they are facing the Corsair. If I'm replacing Zeros with the Sam because I expect to have the CV's or PDU is Off, there is no contest. You almost have to go big on the Sam. If go big there, you need to scale back on the Jack/George to compensate.

In the end, you have to spend supply to build up your R&D factories and your engine factories as well. You can't do it all or the supply shortage you create will give the advantage you have in China to the Allies everywhere.

DO NOT DO THIS AT HOME TECHNIQUE
Finally, there is a technique that you can choose to pursue 1 late war model that takes point 2 above to an extreme. Expand a massive number of r&d factories: like 30-50 x (30). It will cost you a LOT of supply just for the expansion: 50 x 30 x 100 = 150000 supply just to expand. As factories repair, you will notice that a few repair to 2 x (28) while most are still 0 x (30). Later still, you will have a few that are 3 x (27) while others are still 0x(27). Those 3 x (27) and 2 x (28) are likely to be the ones that would repair early rather than late. Note I say likely, not guaranteed. As time goes on, you would prune out the factories that have repaired fewer devices and keep the ones that have more repaired devices. This can potentially buy you a couple weeks or maybe even a couple extra months on arrival date, but the cost in supply is extreme. Please note that I say CAN, not WILL. The RNG is a fickle bitch - all you can do is try to slant the odds in your favor. I'm skeptical that it is worth it, but it improves your chances of getting your R&D factories repaired well in advance of the estimated repair date. Along the way though, you will waste a LOT of supply both needlessly repairing factories and doing expansion you will never/only temporarily use to build the aircraft.

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 177
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/11/2018 5:54:48 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 5247
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Bexhill-on-Sea, E Sussex
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey


1. No test you do in a single game would have statistical significance in answering your question because of the RNG. You could get results that falsely "prove" the idea your approach to repairs is the best option. The best option from a mathematical perspective and from a players perspective is the one that promises the best chance to accelerate your aircraft and isolates you from bad luck from the RNG.

2. Despite point 1, your results are in line with the arguments I and others have already made in this and other threads. The sooner you start repairing, the sooner you build to size 30, the sooner you will start actual R&D. In this case, had you fully expanded the other 3 factories at game start, you would likely now be accumulating your R&D at 2-4 times as fast or be very close to it. Your delay in starting R&D in those other locations is costing you months in arrival of the Frank. Note that I am not saying your results by themselves prove my point - you are not doing enough trials to draw any conclusions positive or negative. I am merely pointing out that your results are in line with the prediction made through mathematical analysis.

3. Your worry about supply is unfounded. Repairs cost the majority of your supply. Expansions cost far less supply plus HI, and Manpower. You will spend as much supply repairing to 3 x(27) as you do expanding from 0x(0) to 0x30. The expansion cost is almost an afterthought when you consider the supply cost of the fully repaired factory. Expanding 4 factories from 0x(0) to 0x(30) will cost you 120 x 100 = 12000 supply. You start with 3 million supply. Factories that do not repair do not cost supply. For aircraft that arrive late, repairs will occur infrequently. You actually spread out the cost of repair more by starting early than you do starting late. The supply drain is insignificant unless you r&d a ton of aircraft with an arrival date in 1942.

4. Conversely, every day you delay the Frank, you cost yourself supply. Every fighter you lose that could have been a Frank instead of a Tojo or Oscar or whatever is a aircraft you have to replace in the air group (costs supply) and probably a pilot you have to train (which will cost you supply in training sorties). The Franks's superior performance means they will survive far more encounters than the aircraft it replaces. Delaying the Frank by months wipes out supply and gives your opponent free VP.




1. Very unscientific I agree,
2. I was waiting until it came online before making up my mind but looking at the results backs up what you've said all along on timimg. I like to see for myself.
3. In previous games I've expanded every factory at the start and ran out of supply everytime. You need supply elsewhere other these factories so I decided to control supply use this way rather than stave my front line troops. Maybe I was a little excessive on how I went about it but my decision was based on my misconception of point 2. I still say you do not have enough supply to expand immediately though and something has to give.
4. Never anaylised the game that deep.

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)
Post #: 178
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/11/2018 7:06:11 AM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

Posts: 347
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen
3. In previous games I've expanded every factory at the start and ran out of supply everytime. You need supply elsewhere other these factories so I decided to control supply use this way rather than stave my front line troops. Maybe I was a little excessive on how I went about it but my decision was based on my misconception of point 2. I still say you do not have enough supply to expand immediately though and something has to give.

I understand. I do not use all of my research factories because I cannot afford the supply to repair them. I do not think Japan can support repairing all it's R&D factories to 30. It costs a huge amount of supply to do that, and then even more to expand and repair the engine factories.

I limit my choices, but I also believe in Go Big or Go Home as Japan. I'm still trying to figure out where that point of too much/not enough is. I make my choices early, implement them early, and then only scale back if my supply trends are falling far short of planned. Given that the cost to expand is only 10% of the cost to repair, it is far better IMO to expand and then halt repair than to never expand at all. I'm looking to scale back, not up.

The other thing I want to highlight is the arrival dates of the aircraft have a huge impact on your supply drain per day/month. Aircraft that arrive in 1942 will place a HUGE drain on your supply when you need it for ops early war. Researching the A6M8 with 5 x 30 as I describe in post #4 means ~330k supply out the window in the first 3 months of the war. That is 11% of your starting supply for 1 aircraft and you will spend it all before mid-February 1942. Researching the 10 x 30 Frank or Sam means you may spend a lot on expansion on the first couple days (30k supply), but the repairs in the first year for those factories will likely only cost about 200k supply by the END of 1942. You'll spend 100k less in a period 10 months longer. You really want to be careful about what you try to r&d that arrives in 1942. The sooner it arrives, the harder it will hit your supply.

< Message edited by InfiniteMonkey -- 1/11/2018 7:08:01 AM >

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 179
RE: Understandings rd factories - 1/11/2018 6:27:24 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 3608
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
Not sure if the guide is still up to date, but...

Found it in my archives - https://www.dropbox.com/s/fjas0l4bpwns0hw/A%20Japanese%20Production%20Primer%20v1-1.pdf?dl=0

Klink, Oberst

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(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)
Post #: 180
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