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RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/25/2017 11:31:42 AM   
Aurorus

 

Posts: 1314
Joined: 5/26/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo




The first Tojo gets 2x7.7 CL, 2x12.7 F. The Oscar has 2x12.7 CL until the IV model. These are equivalent armaments. 2x12.7F = 1x12.7 CL literally. The accuracy for CL is doubled. Comparing 2x7.7 CL and 1x12.7 CL, roughly the same, many players will give the edge to the 12.7 but most would agree it is a close thing.

Next range. The first Tojo will sweep at 5 hexes, for DOUBLE your supply you get 6 hex. Oscar is also 5, but for double your supply usage you get 10 hexes. If you plan to sweep at extended range, you will learn the penalty for that quickly.

All the other factors are mitigated by how you setup your missions (altitude, leaders, etc.). If you don't agree, I suggest you go read Herb's last long AAR, he is an acknowledged expert in Air Combat and he detailed his mission prep routine thoroughly. His results are spread throughout 3 of the best written AAR's on the forum. Except for DUR. That is the real difference between the two. Oscar 22 DUR means armor is almost moot; for the pilot to survive, the aircraft has to make it home, Oscar doesn't do that well (it tends to disintegrate . Tojo 28 DUR gets the AC home more often, you lose the AC (crash on landing), but save the pilot. In the early war, losing a pilot is a big deal.

After about 3/42 though, unless the SOV are activated (Lowpe!), you should never, ever be short of fighter pilots. If you are, you need to work on your pilot training program(s). What this means is that pilot losses are also almost moot for the IJ by the time the Tojo is available.

If you practice good mechanics for your air missions, you should see very little difference between Oscar and Tojo in sweep effectiveness with two caveats:
- slightly higher AC losses and noticeably higher pilot losses due to DUR for the Oscar
- far greater flexibility in terms of basing and a higher tempo of operations for the Oscar.

While the IJ has initiative, IJ has little problem making up AC and pilot losses and can always achieve positive force ratios (much like the allies from '44 on) when she wants. Initiative is crucial in combat and this reality is accurately modeled in this game. The 2nd caveat should be of greater import than the first for IJ players until they cede the initiative, and that should be as late in the game as possible. This means, you should be using Oscar primarily with Tojo being your preferred CAP fighter.



I do not want to go too far into details, because I do not like to reveal all of the various tactics that I employ in the air war. I do hint at some things that I do and make mention from time to time, but one has to "read between the lines" at times to see what I am doing.

I think that you are basing much of your judgment on your experience playing against the AI. Remember that playing a human player is very different. For example, you can sweep the AI at the max altitude of a manuever band and come in above it almost every time. So you can sweep the AI with Oscars at 15K, and your Oscars will perform well, because the dive makes up for their lack of speed, and they are within their effective manuever band. If you try this against a human player more than once or twice, he will adjust his CAP to 18 or 19K. Then, many of your Oscars will climb out of the 15K manuever band to engage only to be dived on and shot to ribbons. If this happens against Hurricanes, for example, the Oscars will be absolutely obliterated; I mean like 15 to 1 in kills. I know this to be true, because it has happened to me.

Now, try the same experiment with Tojos. They will climb, meet the CAP, and fight on even terms or better against Hurricanes, P-40Es, and so forth. This is just one example. There are many others. The point is that Oscars in dogfights that occur above 15K often get destroyed. Tojos have a great deal more flexibility with their altitude settings. They are not cannon fodder above 15K, and they perform well low too, because of their good climb and sufficient manueverability.

When I played the AI, I always thought that the Oscar was a pretty good plane. I now realize that it is not.

< Message edited by Aurorus -- 10/25/2017 11:32:04 AM >

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 91
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/25/2017 4:49:20 PM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
If Japan exploits Tojo and Tony production it creates an unbalanced game that will not be enjoyable for many allied players, and enjoyment is the entire point of the game.



However, it is too restrictive for my taste at times. I don't like the "dead ends" it forces for many air groups. Why oblige the player to continue with a group dead-ended with Zeros M3a or M5 for example although he might have ample Zero M5c models available to upgrade? I can live with preventing a switch from the Zero line to Jack of George, but at least I would like to be able to follow through the path of a model line. Same for Tony Ia to Ic for one Tony group and Tony Ib to Id for the other - heck, there are only two groups allowed to fly the Tony in 1943, no need to restrict and complicate things further.


Exactly my point LST

But as I said, it is definitely worth playing PDU Off for one CG so players can make up their own minds about it. I have already made my call on it

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 92
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/25/2017 8:29:22 PM   
Aurorus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

PDU off does slow the game down a bit (ops tempo tends to be too overall) by forcing both sides to use less effective airframes at the front for longer periods than a PDU on games. The Allies only have a limited number of groups flying good planes and Japan can counter only with an even more limited number of groups flying good planes. Forces caution and hard choices for deployments.

However, it is too restrictive for my taste at times. I don't like the "dead ends" it forces for many air groups. Why oblige the player to continue with a group dead-ended with Zeros M3a or M5 for example although he might have ample Zero M5c models available to upgrade? I can live with preventing a switch from the Zero line to Jack of George, but at least I would like to be able to follow through the path of a model line. Same for Tony Ia to Ic for one Tony group and Tony Ib to Id for the other - heck, there are only two groups allowed to fly the Tony in 1943, no need to restrict and complicate things further.


It is certainly not perfect, especially for many of the hypothetical trees for late models. DBB is worse, especially because it does not allow for upgrading LBA IJN to the Sam. I understand why many players prefer PDU:On. For players with significant experience, however, I do think that veteran Japanese players should refrain from "skipping steps" in research in PDU:on. Substituting the first models of Tony and Tojo for the Oscar IIa in itself is not completely "game-breaking," but deploying 1945 airframes, like the Ki-100, in 1943 can be.

Skipping steps in R&D and PDU:on, along with scenario 2, provide options for Japanese players with less experience to give veteran allied players a good game. So, there are no "hard and fast" rules or a best way to play.

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 93
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/26/2017 12:26:11 AM   
rustysi


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Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

I would have to be off my meds to have 5 rufe r&d factories repaired to 30.


The reason for doing this is that in the A/C flow-chart once the Rufe is researched you can then go right to the A6M5 IIRC with a 30 point R&D factory. This is as per the dev's.

_____________________________

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In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)
Post #: 94
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/26/2017 2:27:04 AM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 2834
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus


quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

PDU off does slow the game down a bit (ops tempo tends to be too overall) by forcing both sides to use less effective airframes at the front for longer periods than a PDU on games. The Allies only have a limited number of groups flying good planes and Japan can counter only with an even more limited number of groups flying good planes. Forces caution and hard choices for deployments.

However, it is too restrictive for my taste at times. I don't like the "dead ends" it forces for many air groups. Why oblige the player to continue with a group dead-ended with Zeros M3a or M5 for example although he might have ample Zero M5c models available to upgrade? I can live with preventing a switch from the Zero line to Jack of George, but at least I would like to be able to follow through the path of a model line. Same for Tony Ia to Ic for one Tony group and Tony Ib to Id for the other - heck, there are only two groups allowed to fly the Tony in 1943, no need to restrict and complicate things further.


It is certainly not perfect, especially for many of the hypothetical trees for late models. DBB is worse, especially because it does not allow for upgrading LBA IJN to the Sam. I understand why many players prefer PDU:On. For players with significant experience, however, I do think that veteran Japanese players should refrain from "skipping steps" in research in PDU:on. Substituting the first models of Tony and Tojo for the Oscar IIa in itself is not completely "game-breaking," but deploying 1945 airframes, like the Ki-100, in 1943 can be.

Skipping steps in R&D and PDU:on, along with scenario 2, provide options for Japanese players with less experience to give veteran allied players a good game. So, there are no "hard and fast" rules or a best way to play.


Since you brought up Scenario 2

I consider myself an experienced Japanese player and I would never play a PBEM Scenario 1. Even against a newbie Allied player.

While both sides have the advantage of hindsight, this favors the Allied player far more than Japan. At least that is my experience playing as Japan. Since I know what will happen as Japan, I see no reason to play a Scenario 1 game since I know the outcome will likely be much worse than historical. At least with Scenario 2, I get to maintain parity a little longer before the hammer starts to fall. Which extends my enjoyment of the game a little longer. The Allies will still win of course. It may even take the game into '45 like my last PBEM game did. But I do not want to spend 3-4 years of my life playing a PBEM full CG game and lose in '44 which can easily happen with good Allied players. But other people may want a different experience which is fine.

The Allied player can make some pretty major mistakes and still come out smelling like a rose. The same cannot be said of Japan.

Of course there is a major downside for Japan if the war gets into late '44+. And that is the amount of supplies taken for the pilot pool. Since Japan gets a huge boost in pilot numbers in Scenario 2, this pool gets even bigger as the war progresses. Since there is no way to turn this off, it can become a major supply drain when Japan need supplies the most. So Scenario 2 is not all honey and roses

Just outlining my thoughts about my PBEM experiences as Japan.

(in reply to Aurorus)
Post #: 95
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/26/2017 3:38:11 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 8465
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus


quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

PDU off does slow the game down a bit (ops tempo tends to be too overall) by forcing both sides to use less effective airframes at the front for longer periods than a PDU on games. The Allies only have a limited number of groups flying good planes and Japan can counter only with an even more limited number of groups flying good planes. Forces caution and hard choices for deployments.

However, it is too restrictive for my taste at times. I don't like the "dead ends" it forces for many air groups. Why oblige the player to continue with a group dead-ended with Zeros M3a or M5 for example although he might have ample Zero M5c models available to upgrade? I can live with preventing a switch from the Zero line to Jack of George, but at least I would like to be able to follow through the path of a model line. Same for Tony Ia to Ic for one Tony group and Tony Ib to Id for the other - heck, there are only two groups allowed to fly the Tony in 1943, no need to restrict and complicate things further.


It is certainly not perfect, especially for many of the hypothetical trees for late models. DBB is worse, especially because it does not allow for upgrading LBA IJN to the Sam. I understand why many players prefer PDU:On. For players with significant experience, however, I do think that veteran Japanese players should refrain from "skipping steps" in research in PDU:on. Substituting the first models of Tony and Tojo for the Oscar IIa in itself is not completely "game-breaking," but deploying 1945 airframes, like the Ki-100, in 1943 can be.

Skipping steps in R&D and PDU:on, along with scenario 2, provide options for Japanese players with less experience to give veteran allied players a good game. So, there are no "hard and fast" rules or a best way to play.


Since you brought up Scenario 2

I consider myself an experienced Japanese player and I would never play a PBEM Scenario 1. Even against a newbie Allied player.

While both sides have the advantage of hindsight, this favors the Allied player far more than Japan. At least that is my experience playing as Japan. Since I know what will happen as Japan, I see no reason to play a Scenario 1 game since I know the outcome will likely be much worse than historical. At least with Scenario 2, I get to maintain parity a little longer before the hammer starts to fall. Which extends my enjoyment of the game a little longer. The Allies will still win of course. It may even take the game into '45 like my last PBEM game did. But I do not want to spend 3-4 years of my life playing a PBEM full CG game and lose in '44 which can easily happen with good Allied players. But other people may want a different experience which is fine.

The Allied player can make some pretty major mistakes and still come out smelling like a rose. The same cannot be said of Japan.

Of course there is a major downside for Japan if the war gets into late '44+. And that is the amount of supplies taken for the pilot pool. Since Japan gets a huge boost in pilot numbers in Scenario 2, this pool gets even bigger as the war progresses. Since there is no way to turn this off, it can become a major supply drain when Japan need supplies the most. So Scenario 2 is not all honey and roses

Just outlining my thoughts about my PBEM experiences as Japan.


+1

It would be nice if the pilot pool got dampened just a bit for IJ ... she simply cannot easily support those pilot numbers.

PS: I think you meant HI drain, not supply drain on the pilots ...

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 96
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/26/2017 3:59:17 AM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

Posts: 347
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
All the other factors are mitigated by how you setup your missions (altitude, leaders, etc.). If you don't agree, I suggest you go read Herb's last long AAR, he is an acknowledged expert in Air Combat and he detailed his mission prep routine thoroughly. His results are spread throughout 3 of the best written AAR's on the forum.

Those sound like good reads. Can you point out the links to those AAR's?

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 97
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/26/2017 4:10:22 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 8465
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

I do not want to go too far into details, because I do not like to reveal all of the various tactics that I employ in the air war. I do hint at some things that I do and make mention from time to time, but one has to "read between the lines" at times to see what I am doing.

I think that you are basing much of your judgment on your experience playing against the AI. Remember that playing a human player is very different. For example, you can sweep the AI at the max altitude of a manuever band and come in above it almost every time. So you can sweep the AI with Oscars at 15K, and your Oscars will perform well, because the dive makes up for their lack of speed, and they are within their effective manuever band. If you try this against a human player more than once or twice, he will adjust his CAP to 18 or 19K. Then, many of your Oscars will climb out of the 15K manuever band to engage only to be dived on and shot to ribbons. If this happens against Hurricanes, for example, the Oscars will be absolutely obliterated; I mean like 15 to 1 in kills. I know this to be true, because it has happened to me.

Now, try the same experiment with Tojos. They will climb, meet the CAP, and fight on even terms or better against Hurricanes, P-40Es, and so forth. This is just one example. There are many others. The point is that Oscars in dogfights that occur above 15K often get destroyed. Tojos have a great deal more flexibility with their altitude settings. They are not cannon fodder above 15K, and they perform well low too, because of their good climb and sufficient manueverability.

When I played the AI, I always thought that the Oscar was a pretty good plane. I now realize that it is not.

I think you are overstating the Oscar altitude issues and understating the Tojo range issue. My opinion. Go ahead an attribute it AI if it makes you feel better.

I have NOT stated Oscar is a good aircraft nor do I think it is good. It is a piece of crap. But it is the best crap that IJ gets until Frank for offensive operations. If Tojo had range 10, then Tojo would clearly be better ... range 8 tough call. But 5/6? You become too predictable and a good player will make you pay for it OR you will have to cede initiative early and a good player will make you pay for it.

If you are unable to use Oscar in sweeps effectively, then I can suggest a number of readings for you to help your tactics:

Start with LoBarons guide, good place to start.
Then, Herb's AAR. his proficiency is simply stunning. seriously. You have to also read his opponents to see the combat summary's to appreciate how good his "air game" really is. Herb rarely includes combat reports directly in his AAR's, they are build into the story instead.
Then greyjoy's (against rader)
Then obverts (I think it was the second previous that had a long multi-page discussion on it. lotta discussion on layers and other portions of the tactics)
finish with Lowpe's current one. There have been some tips and reference to prior works as well.




_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Aurorus)
Post #: 98
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/26/2017 5:17:30 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 5247
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Bexhill-on-Sea, E Sussex
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

For players with significant experience, however, I do think that veteran Japanese players should refrain from "skipping steps" in research in PDU:on.



I agree with one caveat. Never skip. As I said before it's akin to allowing HBs to bomb at 100ft or any of the other house rules that many apply.

(in reply to Aurorus)
Post #: 99
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/26/2017 5:41:20 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 5247
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Bexhill-on-Sea, E Sussex
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Then, Herb's AAR. his proficiency is simply stunning. seriously. You have to also read his opponents to see the combat summary's to appreciate how good his "air game" really is. Herb rarely includes combat reports directly in his AAR's, they are build into the story instead.




Could provide a link as I cannot find one?

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 100
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/26/2017 12:26:54 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 16011
Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
For players with significant experience, however, I do think that veteran Japanese players should refrain from "skipping steps" in research in PDU:on. Substituting the first models of Tony and Tojo for the Oscar IIa in itself is not completely "game-breaking," but deploying 1945 airframes, like the Ki-100, in 1943 can be.


The Ki100 isn't a wonder plane, and researching it early, and skipping all the other Tonies doesn't break the game, not even close. Japan is actually worse off diluting their r&d into this plane unless it is pdu off.


Frank can easily be gotten in June of 1943, and even in PDU off can field 4 Sentai immediately, and 7 with a little bit of r&d into Oscar & Tojo Line. Jacks and George can be fielded even earlier, and all three are far superior to the Tony 100i and 100ii.







< Message edited by Lowpe -- 10/26/2017 1:07:46 PM >

(in reply to Aurorus)
Post #: 101
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/26/2017 1:25:45 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 8465
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Then, Herb's AAR. his proficiency is simply stunning. seriously. You have to also read his opponents to see the combat summary's to appreciate how good his "air game" really is. Herb rarely includes combat reports directly in his AAR's, they are build into the story instead.




Could provide a link as I cannot find one?

You'll need to search, but not too far back. He is in the process of publishing a book based upon it and he brought it forward just a few months back. His opponent, now that one is likely buried pretty far back ... 3 years? something like that.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 102
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/26/2017 1:26:19 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 8465
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
For players with significant experience, however, I do think that veteran Japanese players should refrain from "skipping steps" in research in PDU:on. Substituting the first models of Tony and Tojo for the Oscar IIa in itself is not completely "game-breaking," but deploying 1945 airframes, like the Ki-100, in 1943 can be.


The Ki100 isn't a wonder plane, and researching it early, and skipping all the other Tonies doesn't break the game, not even close. Japan is actually worse off diluting their r&d into this plane unless it is pdu off.


Frank can easily be gotten in June of 1943, and even in PDU off can field 4 Sentai immediately, and 7 with a little bit of r&d into Oscar & Tojo Line. Jacks and George can be fielded even earlier, and all three are far superior to the Tony 100i and 100ii.







+1

_____________________________

Pax

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Post #: 103
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/26/2017 1:51:25 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 16011
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

If you are unable to use Oscar in sweeps effectively, then I can suggest a number of readings for you to help your tactics:




Sweeping with Japanese fighters. For most of the game, about the only plane you can use in a fire and forget method for sweeps is the George. All other models up to and including the Frank A, you need to think, plan and use selectively.

I have swept with Oscars, and they do ok. Fighters I have had poor luck sweeping with are the Jack and Tony.

I kind of believe every fighter has a role to play for Japan.

Oscar insanely high cruise speed, and will often sweep ahead, low alt cap. 1st generation engine, range(IIIa)
Tony is good for deep 4E base protection, okay as escorts, uses first generation engine,early armor
Jack is great front line fighter defense, 1st generation engine, very early to r&d
George can sweep, and do everything else well
Zero early 4e killer, CVs, escort, low alt cap
Frank and Sam the best you will get and field in large numbers
Randy...high altitude, decent in nf role
Dinah...great early night fighter
Tojo great defense thru 43, low level cap, short range, can sweep in 1942, 1943 with care.
Nate and Claude trainers for filling out training squadrons




< Message edited by Lowpe -- 10/26/2017 1:56:32 PM >

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 104
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/27/2017 1:02:55 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 8465
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

If you are unable to use Oscar in sweeps effectively, then I can suggest a number of readings for you to help your tactics:




Sweeping with Japanese fighters. For most of the game, about the only plane you can use in a fire and forget method for sweeps is the George. All other models up to and including the Frank A, you need to think, plan and use selectively.

I have swept with Oscars, and they do ok. Fighters I have had poor luck sweeping with are the Jack and Tony.

I kind of believe every fighter has a role to play for Japan.

Oscar insanely high cruise speed, and will often sweep ahead, low alt cap. 1st generation engine, range(IIIa)
Tony is good for deep 4E base protection, okay as escorts, uses first generation engine,early armor
Jack is great front line fighter defense, 1st generation engine, very early to r&d
George can sweep, and do everything else well
Zero early 4e killer, CVs, escort, low alt cap
Frank and Sam the best you will get and field in large numbers
Randy...high altitude, decent in nf role
Dinah...great early night fighter
Tojo great defense thru 43, low level cap, short range, can sweep in 1942, 1943 with care.
Nate and Claude trainers for filling out training squadrons




+1

You're better than me, even George for me takes planning to be effective.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 10/27/2017 1:06:16 AM >


_____________________________

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Post #: 105
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/27/2017 2:34:23 PM   
Skyros


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Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Then, Herb's AAR. his proficiency is simply stunning. seriously. You have to also read his opponents to see the combat summary's to appreciate how good his "air game" really is. Herb rarely includes combat reports directly in his AAR's, they are build into the story instead.




Could provide a link as I cannot find one?

You'll need to search, but not too far back. He is in the process of publishing a book based upon it and he brought it forward just a few months back. His opponent, now that one is likely buried pretty far back ... 3 years? something like that.

I searched for a HERB and could not find one with significant posts that would nmean he had an AAR. Is that his real name or forum name?

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 106
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/27/2017 2:43:46 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 16011
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Then, Herb's AAR. his proficiency is simply stunning. seriously. You have to also read his opponents to see the combat summary's to appreciate how good his "air game" really is. Herb rarely includes combat reports directly in his AAR's, they are build into the story instead.




Could provide a link as I cannot find one?

You'll need to search, but not too far back. He is in the process of publishing a book based upon it and he brought it forward just a few months back. His opponent, now that one is likely buried pretty far back ... 3 years? something like that.

I searched for a HERB and could not find one with significant posts that would nmean he had an AAR. Is that his real name or forum name?


Here you go. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2560960

The problem with some of the AARs, is that they are old and use tactics that no longer work because of patches or Symon's air mod.


(in reply to Skyros)
Post #: 107
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/27/2017 3:58:14 PM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 5247
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Bexhill-on-Sea, E Sussex
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


Here you go. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2560960

The problem with some of the AARs, is that they are old and use tactics that no longer work because of patches or Symon's air mod.




Thanks but I wish I'd never asked, 133 pages

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 108
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/27/2017 5:57:08 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 11342
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Then, Herb's AAR. his proficiency is simply stunning. seriously. You have to also read his opponents to see the combat summary's to appreciate how good his "air game" really is. Herb rarely includes combat reports directly in his AAR's, they are build into the story instead.




Could provide a link as I cannot find one?

You'll need to search, but not too far back. He is in the process of publishing a book based upon it and he brought it forward just a few months back. His opponent, now that one is likely buried pretty far back ... 3 years? something like that.

I searched for a HERB and could not find one with significant posts that would nmean he had an AAR. Is that his real name or forum name?

I think Herb's handle is 1275 PSI. Look him up in the members list and click on his list of posts to find his AARs.

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Post #: 109
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/28/2017 3:47:01 PM   
Anachro


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Do any of you JFB's tend to accelerate R&D for your carrier torpedo and dive bombers or would you consider the gain too minimal for the cost in materials?

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Post #: 110
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/28/2017 4:43:49 PM   
Numdydar

 

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I do to get Judy's as you really need the bigger bomb load later in the war.

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Post #: 111
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/28/2017 10:00:44 PM   
Aurorus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Do any of you JFB's tend to accelerate R&D for your carrier torpedo and dive bombers or would you consider the gain too minimal for the cost in materials?


Judies are much better than Vals. You will want at least 30 Judies per month, so there is no reason not to expand the Judy factory to 30 at start, which will give you some R&D. I usually put 2 factories, or even 3, on Judy. If you accelerate your 1944 CVs to 1943, which I do, you need a few factories on Judy and Jill to advance the airgroups of these CVs or the planes will not be available when the CVs are available.

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Post #: 112
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/30/2017 5:46:38 PM   
rustysi


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Looks to me like the Jill would be needed as well, if only to get a better speed match to keep the raids coordinated. There's quite a speed difference between the 'old' Kate's and the Judy.

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Post #: 113
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/30/2017 7:30:15 PM   
gmtello

 

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Once u start a tree line of a plane do u have to keep changing the factories one month before the new model production starts or will the factory itself change automatically on the exact date

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Post #: 114
RE: Understandings rd factories - 10/31/2017 6:08:19 AM   
Numdydar

 

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The factories will change automatically to production factories if they are not switched to a new R&D model. However you can change them any time up to the day they cut over. So no need to do it a month in advance. Their names will be blue (iirc) when they are within 30 days of cut over. So you will have plenty of time to do the switch.

< Message edited by Numdydar -- 10/31/2017 6:09:10 AM >

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Post #: 115
RE: Understandings rd factories - 11/1/2017 8:52:17 PM   
Olorin


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I have a simple question for the experts:

A purely hypothetical IJ player wants to spend 10M supply on his purely hypothetical air production program (the sum includes aircraft and engine production and R&D).

Will his economy crash in 1945?

(Assuming a starting stockpile of 5M and 30M produced in 3 years)


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Post #: 116
RE: Understandings rd factories - 11/2/2017 5:03:37 AM   
PaxMondo


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Hypothetically, let's see. My normal plan is to produce 2500 AC/month @ ~1.4 engine per aircraft, so that's 6M to achieve the final build. Before that, I would build up about 500/month Ha-35 type AC, so that's another 1M supply, so I'm at 7M. Throw in another 1M for other interim AC prior to final models, and I'm at 8M.

So, I would say "No", you could spend 10M. Now that leaves you 2M less for actually USING the aircraft that you build, and that is a lot of sorties that you will NOT be able to make. This is the aspect most players overlook; they build all those aircraft, but then do not have the supply to actually fly them. 2M supply is roughly 2000 sorties/day for 2 years ... just roughly. That's the difference in a 7000/day tempo and 9000/day tempo the last two years ... I'm often well over that.

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Post #: 117
RE: Understandings rd factories - 11/2/2017 10:13:28 AM   
Olorin


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I knew you'd be of help Pax.

I have the same worry, that I won't have enough supply to actually fly the aircraft I build. You see the hypothetical plan is to build 41580 aircraft in 1945 and that seems like a lot to me. A tempo of 12000/day would require 6M supply.

More futile details: annual production (vs historical according to wikipedia).

1942: 8970 (8861)
1943: 15540(16693)
1944: 25740(28180)
1945: 41580(8263)

Where do you think I could save a 1 or 2 million?

< Message edited by Olorin -- 11/2/2017 11:30:44 AM >


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Post #: 118
RE: Understandings rd factories - 11/2/2017 11:04:31 AM   
PaxMondo


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you either have to save via lower tempo early OR take more supply via conquest. The latter is higher risk and higher reward. Ex: take and hold the Calcutta region for 12 months ... the HI/LI in that area, not mention the resources and the Magwe production is worth easily 1000 supply/day.

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Post #: 119
RE: Understandings rd factories - 11/2/2017 2:17:30 PM   
Lowpe


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So, that is a huge air build for Japan in 45. I suspect you can do it, especially if you don't change research lines once initially created in 1941, limit forts and runways on the perimeter, reduced pace of operations and get lucky with India.

However, I think the problem is simply pilots. I doubt you will be able to field decent enough pilots to take advantage of the plane builds.

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Post #: 120
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