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Friedman USN BBs

 
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Friedman USN BBs - 9/26/2017 7:00:18 PM   
DOCUP


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I have a question for those of you who have Friedmans USN BB book. Pg 231 he talks about 3 designs as carrier escorts. He also states that part of the design, was that they would carry at least 8 fighters or scout planes. Is this ship carrying float planes of is this a BBV?
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RE: Friedman USN BBs - 9/26/2017 8:08:13 PM   
Lokasenna


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I'm going to have to get this book.

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RE: Friedman USN BBs - 9/26/2017 8:17:07 PM   
DOCUP


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I am enjoying it. I wonder if a few of us can get a book sharing club going.

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RE: Friedman USN BBs - 9/26/2017 10:50:31 PM   
John 3rd


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Isn't it GREAT!

I imagine them as FP. This is what we did in adding the Chesapeake with 6 FP.

My book on Hybrid Warships talks about several of these designs mentioned by Friedman.


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RE: Friedman USN BBs - 9/27/2017 1:39:11 AM   
DOCUP


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I was wondering. I seen a reference to the 10k cruisers and fighters so I thought of a hybrid, but then the at least 8 planes for that size I was thinking float planes. Then I decided to ask here for more experienced people to talk to about it.

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RE: Friedman USN BBs - 10/24/2017 8:29:27 AM   
Ian R

 

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Here you go:

Link to doctoral thesis

Start reading on page 172, where he talks about the fight deck cruiser designs.

The 1932 proposal spotted 24 deck launched/recovered* planes (VF and VO, which I think in WW@ parlance means VSB or VST) flying off an angled (only about 3 degrees)flight deck situated aft (like the Soviet Kievs) (see page 220, page 223 and page 230). It was killed by spending cuts in the depression, and a subsequent 1934 design with 8 aircaft was killed by opponents of hybrid ships who wanted more real carriers and got them (the Yorktowns, and later Wasp) from the navy-minded FDR.

[*Edit - I just finished looking through that again and it is clear we are talking about flight deck recoveries - Admiral Moffett managed to get a clause into the London treaty that 25% of allowed cruiser tonnage could have a "flying-on deck" - Part III Article 16.]

I particularly like this quote, although Adm Jones wasn't quite as deprecatory of the hybrid enthusiasts as his later Royal Navy counterpart:

quote:

From the beginning critics of the CF had labeled it a “hybrid.” Retired Admiral Hilary Jones went so far as to call the ship “a hermaphrodite –neither a real cruiser nor a real airplane carrier. It has all the weaknesses of both and none of the efficient characteristics of either".


In fairness though, some of the officers involved the author talks about - Turner, King, Kinkaid, Mitscher, Towers, and Leahy, were just trying to get useful flight decks to sea at a time when funding pressure (NOT treaty limitations - the USN had about 55,000 tons up its sleeve) prohibited any fleet carrier builds.

Getting back to the Kiev analogy, and the BB housing 8 aircraft, it is not mentioned in that paper - although putting 6 seaplanes on each cruiser was - but we can speculate it was a 1920s concept, when catapult seaplanes were not far off land plane performance, that they could take along their own protection from long range patrols out of IJN atoll bases in the form of a mix of float fighters and OS types. This was reprised by the Soviets - the Kievs were not ever meant to be blue ocean CVs, they were meant to flagship ASW TFs protecting the boomer bastions with their ASW helos, and the Yak VSTOL fighters sufficient to chase away any prowling Orions or Nimrods, not contest air superiority in the 1970s/80s air environment. Their offensive power against SAGs was in their SSN suite, not the piloted aircraft.


< Message edited by Ian R -- 10/24/2017 10:17:44 AM >


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RE: Friedman USN BBs - 10/24/2017 4:05:13 PM   
John 3rd


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The Hybrids we have built in Between the Storms and Between the Storms Lite are from the 1930 design. To better reflect Jones' comment, I reduced their ammo load so--as a cruiser--they are useful for several rounds then run out of ammo and--as a CV--they have too few Sorties to be but a supporting flight-deck. Tough balance because when we first created them, they were EXCELLENT additions and very useful. Had to limit that somewhat...


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