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Expanding HI japan - 9/14/2017 12:54:05 PM   
tigercub


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How much is to much?what increase is needed if at all to HI for Japan?

tigercub

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/14/2017 5:06:56 PM   
Lokasenna


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Zero. End of story.

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/14/2017 5:38:56 PM   
Chickenboy


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Different folks, different opinions. Same story as it ever was.

I expand HI in captured areas that are likely to have a surplus of local fuel and will be under the IJ flag for some time. Some places on Java that make sense. Singapore too. Hong Kong, Canton in China are candidates. Maybe a couple others in China too.

Go easy on the HI expansion in general and particularly go easy on the HI expansion in the home islands. It doesn't make sense to have to haul back *more* fuel for HI purposes to the home islands if it can be generated elsewhere.

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/14/2017 8:10:26 PM   
Lowpe


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Not enough information to make an informed decision. Generally, I would go with Lok, here. Generally. Scenario 2, no supply at refineries, might do something.



< Message edited by Lowpe -- 9/14/2017 8:11:00 PM >

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/15/2017 1:33:44 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Not enough information to make an informed decision. Generally, I would go with Lok, here. Generally. Scenario 2, no supply at refineries, might do something.



+1

It depends upon scenario and your overall strategy.

The payback is 500 days and you are using supply at a point in the game where you likely are short, so you are sacrificing other items to get more supply later.
This is always a tough decision and requires careful consideration. If you're not sure, don't build any. Wait and see how the end game goes for you. Then with experience you can judge the cost of the early expenditure against the late game.


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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/15/2017 3:13:53 AM   
Aurorus

 

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One way to think of HI is as the center where fuel is converted into supply (and into HI points). You will not have enough of either fuel or supply to do everything that you want. The question is often which is more important, and the answer is often supply. So some modest expansion of HI seems like a good idea. However, you can and will be limited by fuel.

I think that the answer to your question as to how much to expand HI, if at all, depends on two things: 1) How much do you intend to use your fleet and 2)How much fuel will you have and how much supply will you have to spend to repair oil wells. I would wait until you have Palembang and a few of the other major oil centers under your control to see how much supply you will need to repair the oil wells. If you capture the oil without major loss, you can probably safely expand HI a little. If you experience more than 100 or 200 wells lost (in addition to the 150 at Miri), you should probably not expand HI, as you will lose fuel production while the wells repair and you will use supply repairing the wells, and the drain on your supply may be too much in the early going, when you are trying to repair other types of industry.

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/15/2017 6:08:08 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Not enough information to make an informed decision. Generally, I would go with Lok, here. Generally. Scenario 2, no supply at refineries, might do something.



+1

It depends upon scenario and your overall strategy.

The payback is 500 days and you are using supply at a point in the game where you likely are short, so you are sacrificing other items to get more supply later.
This is always a tough decision and requires careful consideration. If you're not sure, don't build any. Wait and see how the end game goes for you. Then with experience you can judge the cost of the early expenditure against the late game.



The issue is you're always at a global Oil deficit. Always. By expanding HI, you are hastening its use.

That's not to say I haven't expanded HI in Java by 50 points or so, because I have. Once.

I don't think it's worth it.

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/15/2017 10:02:12 AM   
tigercub


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good to see you guys all still around here just started a new game....that all i wanted to know in 1 hit! thanks very much...

Tigercub

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/15/2017 12:13:02 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
The issue is you're always at a global Oil deficit. Always. By expanding HI, you are hastening its use.

That's not to say I haven't expanded HI in Java by 50 points or so, because I have. Once.

I don't think it's worth it.

This.
Assume that in 12/41~6/44 you are going to ship/refine all the liquids successfully (you really should if worth your salt as JFB!). All liquids shipped out will be productively consumed. Somewhere in 44 it becomes too risky to run tankers so fuel will accumulate in the DEI. You have at most a year for DEI HI to still work while Home Islands are starved. In terms of supply ROI this year is not enough to justify expansion. And HI points are rarely the bottleneck for Japan endgame. It is supply. Not to mention that you would need supply at home not in DEI at that point, and no effective means to ship it.

This all given the fact that PBEMs rarely have proper early Java/Singers invasions, so DEI HI is indeed working effectively until the end of the game.

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 9/15/2017 12:14:23 PM >

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/15/2017 1:11:33 PM   
Zecke


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Zero. End of story.




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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/15/2017 2:50:58 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The issue is you're always at a global Oil deficit. Always. By expanding HI, you are hastening its use.



That quite frankly is not true. Almost always true.

However in Dec of 1941, you cannot predict if you will be short oil or not.

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/15/2017 3:32:33 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The issue is you're always at a global Oil deficit. Always. By expanding HI, you are hastening its use.



That quite frankly is not true. Almost always true.

However in Dec of 1941, you cannot predict if you will be short oil or not.

+1

Yes, there is an oil deficit, but whether IJ runs out of fuel by end game is really up in the air.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 9/15/2017 3:37:10 PM >


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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/15/2017 3:52:43 PM   
John B.


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This is my first time as Japan and I'm clearly missing something. I see that the asserted payback time for supply from an HI point is listed as 500 days. But, if it costs 100 supply points to expand a factory and an HI point produces 2 supply per day would the payback time be 50 days and not 500?

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/15/2017 4:14:29 PM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.

This is my first time as Japan and I'm clearly missing something. I see that the asserted payback time for supply from an HI point is listed as 500 days. But, if it costs 100 supply points to expand a factory and an HI point produces 2 supply per day would the payback time be 50 days and not 500?

It also needs 1000 supply to repair tha tpoint, it comes up in a damaged state.

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/15/2017 4:15:50 PM   
John B.


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Ah, that explains it! Thanks.

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/15/2017 6:33:15 PM   
Lowpe


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It is not only 1000 supply points, but it is local supply points...which means if you expand production in say Java...you most likely have to ship that 1000 points of supply in.

However, the HI that is created, is added globally to your pool with no los needed. The supply is of course generated locally...but that might offset future supply from being shipped in.

So, it gets complicated fast.

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/16/2017 1:35:12 AM   
Insano

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.

This is my first time as Japan and I'm clearly missing something. I see that the asserted payback time for supply from an HI point is listed as 500 days. But, if it costs 100 supply points to expand a factory and an HI point produces 2 supply per day would the payback time be 50 days and not 500?


A largely neglected point - It costs 1100 supply to expand industry but only 1000 supply to repair existing but damaged industry. That is to say it is 10% cheaper in supply to repair damaged HI and LI than it is to create it new. A margin meaning you should repair industry damaged during capture over expanding new. I would repair all damaged HI in Java and Malaysia/Singapore.

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/17/2017 4:19:28 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The issue is you're always at a global Oil deficit. Always. By expanding HI, you are hastening its use.



That quite frankly is not true. Almost always true.

However in Dec of 1941, you cannot predict if you will be short oil or not.

+1

Yes, there is an oil deficit, but whether IJ runs out of fuel by end game is really up in the air.


Nice dodge.

Always an oil deficit. Which is not to say that I haven't expanded HI in Java by like 50. But numbers don't lie, and they don't add up for anywhere else at any time.

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/17/2017 4:19:54 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

It is not only 1000 supply points, but it is local supply points...which means if you expand production in say Java...you most likely have to ship that 1000 points of supply in.

However, the HI that is created, is added globally to your pool with no los needed. The supply is of course generated locally...but that might offset future supply from being shipped in.

So, it gets complicated fast.


HI is almost unimportant.

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Post #: 19
RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/17/2017 4:39:40 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

It is not only 1000 supply points, but it is local supply points...which means if you expand production in say Java...you most likely have to ship that 1000 points of supply in.

However, the HI that is created, is added globally to your pool with no los needed. The supply is of course generated locally...but that might offset future supply from being shipped in.

So, it gets complicated fast.


HI is almost unimportant.

Well, only in the context that players now focus more on aircraft builds than Naval or ARM which drives them into a supply deficit instead of an HI deficit.

If you chose to accelerate ALL CV's and DD's you would then need to expand NSY significantly, and would need a lot more HI as well.
OR
You choose to increase VEH seriously (say +300), again, you can find yourself in an HI deficit.

These were more common strategies 4 - 6 years ago. Now the player focus is almost singularly fixated on aircraft. I'm not criticizing, just noting it.

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/18/2017 11:10:14 PM   
Chickenboy


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For those Japanese players involved in a scenario 2 game, the monthly pilot training is a massive HI drain. When combined with accelerated DDs, CVs and a modest increase in the air commitment, it's not at all difficult to imagine a serious HI drain. Unimportant? Not hardly.

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/19/2017 2:40:15 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

For those Japanese players involved in a scenario 2 game, the monthly pilot training is a massive HI drain. When combined with accelerated DDs, CVs and a modest increase in the air commitment, it's not at all difficult to imagine a serious HI drain. Unimportant? Not hardly.

Yeah, and any mod based upon Scen2 suffers the same issue. +50,000/mo HI flushed ... for pilots that you don't really need IMO.

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/19/2017 4:06:10 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

For those Japanese players involved in a scenario 2 game, the monthly pilot training is a massive HI drain. When combined with accelerated DDs, CVs and a modest increase in the air commitment, it's not at all difficult to imagine a serious HI drain. Unimportant? Not hardly.

Yeah, and any mod based upon Scen2 suffers the same issue. +50,000/mo HI flushed ... for pilots that you don't really need IMO.

Aye. But the point stands. Lost of Scen2 games out there. Big time needs for HI. Better make use of what you're paying for...

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/19/2017 4:50:03 AM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

For those Japanese players involved in a scenario 2 game, the monthly pilot training is a massive HI drain. When combined with accelerated DDs, CVs and a modest increase in the air commitment, it's not at all difficult to imagine a serious HI drain. Unimportant? Not hardly.

Yeah, and any mod based upon Scen2 suffers the same issue. +50,000/mo HI flushed ... for pilots that you don't really need IMO.
pool
In general, leaving pilots in your Reserve pool is a bad idea as Japan. You can take that a step further and empty your monthly (1-3 mos/4-6 mos/7-9 mos/10-12mos) training pools. If you truly do not need them, pull all your pilots out of the reserve, then pull until the you have none left in training, and flush the low skilled ones down the toilet (retire them). A dangerous thing to do, but if you really do not need them and can face the possibility of wrecking your training pools for a while, then you can save the HI.

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/19/2017 5:10:51 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

For those Japanese players involved in a scenario 2 game, the monthly pilot training is a massive HI drain. When combined with accelerated DDs, CVs and a modest increase in the air commitment, it's not at all difficult to imagine a serious HI drain. Unimportant? Not hardly.

Yeah, and any mod based upon Scen2 suffers the same issue. +50,000/mo HI flushed ... for pilots that you don't really need IMO.
pool
In general, leaving pilots in your Reserve pool is a bad idea as Japan. You can take that a step further and empty your monthly (1-3 mos/4-6 mos/7-9 mos/10-12mos) training pools. If you truly do not need them, pull all your pilots out of the reserve, then pull until the you have none left in training, and flush the low skilled ones down the toilet (retire them). A dangerous thing to do, but if you really do not need them and can face the possibility of wrecking your training pools for a while, then you can save the HI.


My understanding of the HI drain of pilots is that they drain HI when they come into your training pools ("0-3 months"), not whether they are in your reserve pool or your squadron pools. Can one of the numbers crunchers clarify this please?

Also, what do you mean 'retire' pilots? What is the mechanism for this?

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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/19/2017 5:35:08 PM   
Xargun

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

For those Japanese players involved in a scenario 2 game, the monthly pilot training is a massive HI drain. When combined with accelerated DDs, CVs and a modest increase in the air commitment, it's not at all difficult to imagine a serious HI drain. Unimportant? Not hardly.

Yeah, and any mod based upon Scen2 suffers the same issue. +50,000/mo HI flushed ... for pilots that you don't really need IMO.
pool
In general, leaving pilots in your Reserve pool is a bad idea as Japan. You can take that a step further and empty your monthly (1-3 mos/4-6 mos/7-9 mos/10-12mos) training pools. If you truly do not need them, pull all your pilots out of the reserve, then pull until the you have none left in training, and flush the low skilled ones down the toilet (retire them). A dangerous thing to do, but if you really do not need them and can face the possibility of wrecking your training pools for a while, then you can save the HI.


My understanding of the HI drain of pilots is that they drain HI when they come into your training pools ("0-3 months"), not whether they are in your reserve pool or your squadron pools. Can one of the numbers crunchers clarify this please?

Also, what do you mean 'retire' pilots? What is the mechanism for this?


I believe you pay a HI fee for ALL pilots in your training pools (months 1-12) not reserve or any other pool.


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RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/19/2017 5:52:15 PM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

For those Japanese players involved in a scenario 2 game, the monthly pilot training is a massive HI drain. When combined with accelerated DDs, CVs and a modest increase in the air commitment, it's not at all difficult to imagine a serious HI drain. Unimportant? Not hardly.

Yeah, and any mod based upon Scen2 suffers the same issue. +50,000/mo HI flushed ... for pilots that you don't really need IMO.
pool
In general, leaving pilots in your Reserve pool is a bad idea as Japan. You can take that a step further and empty your monthly (1-3 mos/4-6 mos/7-9 mos/10-12mos) training pools. If you truly do not need them, pull all your pilots out of the reserve, then pull until the you have none left in training, and flush the low skilled ones down the toilet (retire them). A dangerous thing to do, but if you really do not need them and can face the possibility of wrecking your training pools for a while, then you can save the HI.


My understanding of the HI drain of pilots is that they drain HI when they come into your training pools ("0-3 months"), not whether they are in your reserve pool or your squadron pools. Can one of the numbers crunchers clarify this please?

Also, what do you mean 'retire' pilots? What is the mechanism for this?


5HI per pilot per month, amount deducted on the 1st of the month.

Read
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3682487&mpage=1&key=pilots%2Ctraining&%2365533
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4176447

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Post #: 27
RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/19/2017 5:54:41 PM   
Lokasenna


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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

It is not only 1000 supply points, but it is local supply points...which means if you expand production in say Java...you most likely have to ship that 1000 points of supply in.

However, the HI that is created, is added globally to your pool with no los needed. The supply is of course generated locally...but that might offset future supply from being shipped in.

So, it gets complicated fast.


HI is almost unimportant.

Well, only in the context that players now focus more on aircraft builds than Naval or ARM which drives them into a supply deficit instead of an HI deficit.

If you chose to accelerate ALL CV's and DD's you would then need to expand NSY significantly, and would need a lot more HI as well.
OR
You choose to increase VEH seriously (say +300), again, you can find yourself in an HI deficit.

These were more common strategies 4 - 6 years ago. Now the player focus is almost singularly fixated on aircraft. I'm not criticizing, just noting it.


I'm at work so don't have my expanded industry numbers, but I'm nearing 3M stockpiled HI in my game with Bullwinkle as we near the end of 1944. I also have more than 100K ARM stockpiled vs. projected need for every reinforcement unit and approaching that for VEH.

I accelerated every CV. I'm actually turning off NavSY now as all the subs that are even worth using are building, and every DD is accelerated until it's in normal build mode (and the better ones, like Shimakazes or Yugumos or Akitsukis, are accelerated until finished). I built Yamato/Musashi.

Basically, I didn't skimp. Without being able to check for sure, off the top of my head/IIRC, my NavSY was 1640 and my MerSY was about 800. My ARM was ~300 (with ~300 turned off) for a long time, which I think is still the case. My VEH was >300 and maybe even higher (but not much higher, up to 350 maybe). These are values I expanded to by late 42 at latest and left running. I did math and check up on them every month or so. Or longer.

Yes, I expanded HI in Java by a bit to make it closer to "Oil neutral." I don't think I'd do so again - HI simply makes supplies from a finite number of Oil->Fuel, so expanding HI is just burning through your tank of gas faster. In global terms. LI, on the other hand, is more interesting...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

For those Japanese players involved in a scenario 2 game, the monthly pilot training is a massive HI drain. When combined with accelerated DDs, CVs and a modest increase in the air commitment, it's not at all difficult to imagine a serious HI drain. Unimportant? Not hardly.


This has not been my experience and I haven't even emptied my pilot schools. It's costing me ~27K per month, or less than 1/3 of my surplus production.

This is Scen 2.

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Post #: 28
RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/19/2017 11:47:15 PM   
Chickenboy


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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
This has not been my experience and I haven't even emptied my pilot schools. It's costing me ~27K per month, or less than 1/3 of my surplus production.

This is Scen 2.


I haven't gotten that far in a scenario 2 game. Thank you for letting me know that. I'll yield to your example then and sit corrected.

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Post #: 29
RE: Expanding HI japan - 9/20/2017 1:59:24 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

...
I'm at work so don't have my expanded industry numbers, but I'm nearing 3M stockpiled HI in my game with Bullwinkle as we near the end of 1944. ...

Well, we'll see if the numbers Mike and I cranked out are accurate or not. We came up with 4M HI drop dead entering '45, preferably 6M HI to last until end game. This assumed that the allies were able to torch Tokyo/Osaka by early '45.

_____________________________

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