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witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/12/2017 2:01:27 PM   
BBfanboy


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witpqs is no longer in trouble with PETA ... as long as he donates 25% of his profits to them!






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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/12/2017 2:10:07 PM   
General Patton


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....GP

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/12/2017 2:17:06 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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Opposing arguments....




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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/12/2017 2:19:09 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Opposing arguments....




Are you adopting that as your avatar?!!
Might be a little too much "in your face"!

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/12/2017 3:47:01 PM   
Lokasenna


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So what is it, a 25% VP tax?

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/12/2017 4:04:36 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

witpqs is no longer in trouble with PETA ... as long as he donates 25% of his profits to them!






So the basic story is this, highly summarized but I hope capturing the key elements that I've gleaned from a number of news items including articles in a law blog written by law professors (The Volokh Conspiracy). The photographer put his camera down for some reason. A monkey - 'a' monkey - picked it up and snapped a few photos, pretty clearly without understanding what was happening as it handled the camera. At some point the photographer, who lives in the UK, placed said photos in the public domain. It happens that absent a written agreement/contract/whatever one does not own photographs not taken by oneself, even if taken with one's equipment. It also happens that animals do not have property rights, including copyright. At various times the photographer was sued by PETA and perhaps others alleging the photos were copyright of/property of the monkey.

PETA in particular claims the photos were taken by a female monkey they call Naruto and they legally represent said monkey. AFAIK in other matters they have claimed to legally represent many animals and nonhuman entities. The photographer claims that the photograph was taken by a male, certainly not the monkey PETA claims. Various US courts including at least one Federal appeals court ruled animals do not have property rights and the photograph is not owned by anyone, end of story. Along the way the photographer, who recall had already placed the photographs into the public domain (giving up rights he didn't have but certainly disavowing them I guess) went bankrupt from the lawsuits. How he deserved that is beyond my understanding.

PETA kept finding ways to go back to court in the US but was not getting anywhere as the prior rulings showed no signs of weakness at all. Apparently they were thought to have spent at least $70K or $80K on the latest suit and could have been liable for the defendant's attorney's fees if they kept pursuing the suit. Hence the "settlement" was reached. Reportedly the photographer promised 25% of any future profits from the photos to some charity or charities. PETA publicly claims "victory".

< Message edited by witpqs -- 9/12/2017 9:14:25 PM >


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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/12/2017 4:39:43 PM   
Yaab


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Animals don't use money or legal tenders. How do you pay them royalties?

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/12/2017 7:45:01 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Animals don't use money or legal tenders. How do you pay them royalties?

In bananas.

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/12/2017 7:59:49 PM   
mikkey


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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/12/2017 8:23:59 PM   
Yaab


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Eat royally?

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/12/2017 8:29:10 PM   
BillBrown


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And I will not and have never made any donation to PETA ( PETA = PITA )

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/12/2017 10:42:01 PM   
geofflambert


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Why isn't there a PETG? You know, People for the Ethical Treatment of Gorns.

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/12/2017 10:50:25 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Why isn't there a PETG? You know, People for the Ethical Treatment of Gorns.

Gorns are good for making Soylent Green. 'Cause they're already green.

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/12/2017 11:56:55 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Why isn't there a PETG? You know, People for the Ethical Treatment of Gorns.

Gorns are good for making Soylent Green. 'Cause they're already green.

I'm in a generous mood, so you can have my share of the Soylent Green witpqs!

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/13/2017 3:38:24 AM   
Lovejoy

 

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Poor fellow: he just go caught in the works.

< Message edited by Lovejoy -- 9/13/2017 3:41:32 AM >

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/13/2017 11:31:13 AM   
Ranger5355

 

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I'm a bit surprised. I thought the picture was photo-shopped!

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/13/2017 1:50:55 PM   
Lecivius


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How on earth did PETA gain legal representation of an animal? Tort reform is WAY overdue in this country

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/13/2017 2:21:12 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

How on earth did PETA gain legal representation of an animal? Tort reform is WAY overdue in this country




It's a Madhouse....




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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/13/2017 2:27:58 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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PETA should be worried about real crime...




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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/13/2017 2:49:56 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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Gosh!

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/13/2017 3:30:37 PM   
witpqs


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Last night I read that as part of the settlement both parties (PETA and the photographer) are asking the court to vacate (take back or whatever) the previous ruling that animals have no property rights. Possibly the law firm representing PETA has a number of other animal-property lawsuits waiting in the wings and that ruling was a crushing blow.

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/13/2017 5:41:13 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

How on earth did PETA gain legal representation of an animal? Tort reform is WAY overdue in this country


In the same way that organizations can have legal representation of other non-person entities.

Animals are something of a special case - we accord them certain rights (animal cruelty laws come to mind, also disputes over ownership I imagine) and in such cases... someone has to represent them. Kind of like how someone has to represent the best interests of minor children in legal situations and whatnot.

Not really seeing how that's related to torts, though. There's either a law on the books that would allow a suit to be brought, or there isn't. Whether or not the entity with standing to sue is represented by another entity isn't really relevant to the tort itself.

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/13/2017 6:33:00 PM   
Lecivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

How on earth did PETA gain legal representation of an animal? Tort reform is WAY overdue in this country


In the same way that organizations can have legal representation of other non-person entities.

Animals are something of a special case - we accord them certain rights (animal cruelty laws come to mind, also disputes over ownership I imagine) and in such cases... someone has to represent them. Kind of like how someone has to represent the best interests of minor children in legal situations and whatnot.

Not really seeing how that's related to torts, though. There's either a law on the books that would allow a suit to be brought, or there isn't. Whether or not the entity with standing to sue is represented by another entity isn't really relevant to the tort itself.


Animal rights (such as cruelty) are represented by the law of the land. That would allow legal representation of a body (animals, or a herd, or an identified group) in the form of a government body (Animal Control). This...this is just someone applying for civil relief for a individual personal cause. They ruined a person just because of an act of nature ( the monkey took his own picture, the photag never made a claim of right). There was no intention of relief, this was twisting the law for a political agenda.

As for tort law, a tort is " A body of rights, obligations, and remedies that is applied by courts in civil proceedings to provide relief for persons who have suffered harm". Saying a wild monkey has the same civil rights as a human is akin to saying hunters need to be sued for distress for hunting deer. What's next, we sue Dow Chemical for giving roaches cancer?

Okies, I'll get off my soap box. No reason to get Bill in here swinging the ban stick

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/14/2017 5:10:05 PM   
Lokasenna


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I'm definitely not saying that the context doesn't make it strange or absurd (i.e. deer distress), but from a legal standpoint (to me, a non-lawyer) the concept of representation makes sense.

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/14/2017 6:10:09 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I'm definitely not saying that the context doesn't make it strange or absurd (i.e. deer distress), but from a legal standpoint (to me, a non-lawyer) the concept of representation makes sense.

I didn't try to repeat too much of that article I read which described them asking the court to set aside an earlier ruling but here is a little more detail. PETA's reasoning for asking the court to set aside the animals can't own property ruling is that the settlement is between PETA and the photographer so the monkey should not be bound where it has no say in the matter. That seems to undermine their rationale about representing the monkey in the first place.

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/14/2017 8:03:35 PM   
geofflambert


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As a lawyer representing the interests of Corporations, the Justice Roberts and the Supremes have ruled that corporations are people. It is our intent to establish that these people shall have suffrage, that is to say they should be able to vote like any other people. The question arises as to how many votes should a corporation have? Well, naturally, that depends on how much money they have. Of course.

I'm not really a lawyer, just joking.

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/15/2017 6:58:19 AM   
Commander Cody


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Hey, what do you guys have against PETA? I've been a member since I was knee high to a grasshopper..

Cheers,
CC




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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/15/2017 10:16:55 AM   
Canoerebel


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I was a lawyer in a previous life, with a concentration in natural resources law. As I recall, the question of "standing" was raised in the landmark case of Sierra Club v. Morton. Disney had plans to build a massive ski resort in a small, remote, high altitude valley in the Sierras. The Supreme Court held that the Sierra Club did not have standing in the case - that is, the right to assert what amounted to a claim on behalf of the trees and the environment that would be affected by the development. But the court noted that the Club might just have standing if it alleged that it's members would be impacted by the proposed development - their enjoyment of hiking, etc. The outcome of all this was that the Sierra Club prevailed. The resort was never built.



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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/15/2017 4:46:57 PM   
witpqs


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I heard about that. This case of course is different in that there is nothing impinging on any human's rights. They are simply seeking to establish the right of animals to own property, and of course their place in controlling (through legal representation) all of those interests (read as: money and power).

I think Tears for Fears put out a song about that...

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RE: witpqs off the hook - sort of - 9/16/2017 4:46:09 AM   
witpqs


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It just keeps getting better...
Lawyer: Without The Monkey's Approval, PETA Can't Settle Monkey Selfie Case

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