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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN

 
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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/18/2018 7:30:39 AM   
thedoctorking


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Yes, I am the Germans in a game against Sparkleytits, so a very experienced German playing as the Russians this time. My 1941 offensive got to the outskirts of Rostov and Voronezh in the south, Vitebsk in the center, but not even past Pskov in the north (my priority was to be prepared to take the Caucasus in 1942; shows you what I know).

His blizzard counteroffensive took me back to about the bend of the Dnepr, Kharkov, and Smolensk, then basically along the Lithuania-Estonia border. My 1942 summer offensives went basically nowhere. I was able to puncture his front but on a narrow line. I was concentrating two panzer armies for dual thrusts in the south and center at first. Then, I decided I'd better do one big push, so I took advantage of weakness along the land bridge and got back about to Smolensk before he could rally troops to stop me. Both times, I killed significant numbers of Russians - over 100,000 a turn - but he had plenty of reserves. By the end of summer, I went over to the defensive, counter-punching when he would attack. His offensives didn't go anywhere either. I had the fun of cutting off a whole Guards Tank Army in one big battle up in southern Estonia.

But basically, I wasn't able to go anywhere against an experienced opponent. Panzer divisions are anything but supermen.

(in reply to Nix77)
Post #: 151
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/20/2018 4:11:18 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 2561
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

Yes, I am the Germans in a game against Sparkleytits, so a very experienced German playing as the Russians this time. My 1941 offensive got to the outskirts of Rostov and Voronezh in the south, Vitebsk in the center, but not even past Pskov in the north (my priority was to be prepared to take the Caucasus in 1942; shows you what I know).

His blizzard counteroffensive took me back to about the bend of the Dnepr, Kharkov, and Smolensk, then basically along the Lithuania-Estonia border. My 1942 summer offensives went basically nowhere. I was able to puncture his front but on a narrow line. I was concentrating two panzer armies for dual thrusts in the south and center at first. Then, I decided I'd better do one big push, so I took advantage of weakness along the land bridge and got back about to Smolensk before he could rally troops to stop me. Both times, I killed significant numbers of Russians - over 100,000 a turn - but he had plenty of reserves. By the end of summer, I went over to the defensive, counter-punching when he would attack. His offensives didn't go anywhere either. I had the fun of cutting off a whole Guards Tank Army in one big battle up in southern Estonia.

But basically, I wasn't able to go anywhere against an experienced opponent. Panzer divisions are anything but supermen.


The post really was about the loses, or lack of loses to panzer divisions, not a campaign as a whole. Therefore panzer divisions are still supermen. How you use them, or not use them in the campaign is yet another debate. Along with experience being relative.



_____________________________

“If you teach a man anything, he will never learn.”;

Bernard Shaw

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 152
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/20/2018 5:48:52 AM   
beender


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Now that i'm playing as soviet, i get to understand this issue: no matter what i do with German panzers, regiment or division, routed or long-forced retreat, they just don't lose many. And I lose a lot. I agree something need to done so that more losses, men and tanks, should be incurred at least when the German panzer units are defeated in a battle.

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 153
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/20/2018 5:08:59 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beender

Now that i'm playing as soviet, i get to understand this issue: no matter what i do with German panzers, regiment or division, routed or long-forced retreat, they just don't lose many. And I lose a lot. I agree something need to done so that more losses, men and tanks, should be incurred at least when the German panzer units are defeated in a battle.


Look after the logistics phase. The battle reports do not show all the tanks lost.

I just posted what I think is an interesting combat report in the 8MP.
Soviets do a bunch of soaking attacks drawing in panzers set in reserve. 27 damged .. the logitics phase (it is blizzard) was not kind.
Now we convince Morvel to make a change to nerf panzers .. Germans quit in the blizzard game goes into obsolence ..


_____________________________

Laughter and tears are both responses to frustration and exhaustion. I myself prefer to laugh, since there is less cleaning up to do afterward. - Kurt Vonnegut

(in reply to beender)
Post #: 154
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/22/2018 4:53:15 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beender

Now that i'm playing as soviet, i get to understand this issue: no matter what i do with German panzers, regiment or division, routed or long-forced retreat, they just don't lose many. And I lose a lot. I agree something need to done so that more losses, men and tanks, should be incurred at least when the German panzer units are defeated in a battle.

Attack the german Infantry and if you can work it out any unit with support units attached.

_____________________________

When you escape from the lions den, it is unwise to go back for your hat.

(in reply to beender)
Post #: 155
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/22/2018 4:57:59 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: beender

Now that i'm playing as soviet, i get to understand this issue: no matter what i do with German panzers, regiment or division, routed or long-forced retreat, they just don't lose many. And I lose a lot. I agree something need to done so that more losses, men and tanks, should be incurred at least when the German panzer units are defeated in a battle.


Look after the logistics phase. The battle reports do not show all the tanks lost.

I just posted what I think is an interesting combat report in the 8MP.
Soviets do a bunch of soaking attacks drawing in panzers set in reserve. 27 damged .. the logitics phase (it is blizzard) was not kind.
Now we convince Morvel to make a change to nerf panzers .. Germans quit in the blizzard game goes into obsolence ..


My question here is Are we playing a game or a Barbarossa simulation? If the latter then yes check out what happens in the logistics phase and let the computer do it all, play in the editor to change some items and come back in a couple of weeks...

If it is a game then increase the excitement value by giving the player some reward for attacking a Panzer division.

_____________________________

When you escape from the lions den, it is unwise to go back for your hat.

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 156
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/22/2018 5:29:48 PM   
thedoctorking


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My reward for attacking a panzer division is that if I win (even at great cost) I get the hex. If it is a hex that opens a pocket or pockets some German armored spearheads, it pays off in a big way. Opening a pocket means that those units will live another turn and continue to screw up German movement with ZOC's (since they will not be in "isolated" status during the subsequent German turn and so can only be routed or shattered by German attacks, not surrendered). Pocketing German spearheads means that they won't draw supplies in the subsequent logistics phase, further slowing the German advance. It's all about limiting how far the Germans can go with those panzers before the rains start.

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 157
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/23/2018 1:17:26 PM   
GamesaurusRex


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If the German Player has not isolated Leningrad by turn six or seven, he doesn't understand how to use the Panzer Ball.

And if the Russian attempts to defend the Pskov line to prevent the seven turn miracle... he doesn't understand what the Pazer Ball will do to his troops when they get to Pskov.

Once the Russian understands, there will be no defense of Pskov...

This is definitely a "game" and not a simulation...


< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 5/23/2018 1:23:42 PM >

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 158
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/23/2018 1:37:33 PM   
beender


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I don't think isolating leningrade by turn 7 is a must for axis, even if feasible. I believe this game is too complex to warrant a fixed pattern or formula, which is good and historical.

Personally i only successfully isolated the north once, and that was T11. But that didn't prevent an early axis victory, so perhaps it is not a necessary condition to isolate leningrade before a certain date.

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 159
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/23/2018 8:39:48 PM   
Icier


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beender

I don't think isolating leningrade by turn 7 is a must for axis, even if feasible. I believe this game is too complex to warrant a fixed pattern or formula, which is good and historical.

Personally i only successfully isolated the north once, and that was T11. But that didn't prevent an early axis victory, so perhaps it is not a necessary condition to isolate leningrade before a certain date.



Unfortunately, you are talking from ignorance....have a look @ the games by CHOAS45 & Pelton ( although PeLton games may have been scrubbed for being naughty).

These 2 players would regularly Take Leningrad by turn 7.


_____________________________

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

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Post #: 160
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/23/2018 9:32:13 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

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I think Beender is right personally the game has too many moving parts to give such sweeping statements as predetermined foresight

My experience is that if Axis gets Leningrad from turn 6-9 it is because in one way or another the Soviets let them

< Message edited by SparkleyTits -- 5/23/2018 10:21:15 PM >

(in reply to Icier)
Post #: 161
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/23/2018 10:08:49 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 2561
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

I think Jing is right personally the game has too many moving parts to give such sweeping statements as predetermined foresight



He(Jing) is correct & those statements are broad brushed painted with little to no merit because of the many different moving parts. The game can be won in many different ways, not just a single path that needs to be traveled or attained by having something in a time limit or a "panzer ball" will win all. I hope people that read these statements are critical thinkers and can see what they are worth.

_____________________________

“If you teach a man anything, he will never learn.”;

Bernard Shaw

(in reply to SparkleyTits)
Post #: 162
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/23/2018 10:13:59 PM   
beender


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icier

Unfortunately, you are talking from ignorance....have a look @ the games by CHOAS45 & Pelton ( although PeLton games may have been scrubbed for being naughty).

These 2 players would regularly Take Leningrad by turn 7.



Of course i am only commenting based on my own experience (who doesn't?), which is just a few months at most. But still,

1. The two players you mentioned are in the past time. I only heard of Pelton. Player skills never ceased increasing and the game updating, so their experience might not be relevant anymore.

2. Even if they are, they only prove that such practices are doable, or even desirable, but not that it's a necessary condition. Simple logic, i suppose.

3. On the other hand, so far I've played around 15 games as Axis, the longest being T11, and all ended with soviet player resigning. As mentioned among them only once was leningrade isolated. These are enough exceptions to the absolute statement. Also simple logic.

Well, at the end of day, in wars or wargames, arguments are proved not by talk but acts. So if you want to test my opinion by having a actual game, you are surely welcome. Won't take very long, I imagine

(in reply to Icier)
Post #: 163
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/23/2018 11:00:32 PM   
thedoctorking


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It's very hard to justify resigning as either side before the end of the first winter. Maybe with the Germans if you have really not achieved much during Barbarossa.

(in reply to beender)
Post #: 164
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/23/2018 11:16:12 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

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I think that depends on the player in question and what they want from the game

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 165
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/23/2018 11:26:46 PM   
beender


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

It's very hard to justify resigning as either side before the end of the first winter. Maybe with the Germans if you have really not achieved much during Barbarossa.


Can't say I totally understand what you mean, due to my English. But its my bad to stray away from the thread topic, so no more comment. After all, I cant really prove anything unless by doing actual games.

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 166
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 7/2/2018 7:43:15 AM   
Elijah

 

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Back to tank losses in '41...Wanted to add my 2 cents as I've been trying the AI on Challenging which is about what Morvael was proposing morale wise. The Germans definitely lose a lot more tanks, by the start of mud the majority of my Panzer Div's were at 60-65% TOE. Partly rusty play on my part but no question the morale changes can and will produce more historical panzer attrition in '41.

_____________________________

Part of history is facts. The other part is what we find easier to believe.

Walter Darby Bannard

(in reply to beender)
Post #: 167
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 7/7/2018 3:59:56 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Bleh, still in the current patch the Panzer Divisions = Super MEN. Granted I am still before the August deadline of all Soviet units SUX azz & take extra loses. But I can still tell German Panzer Divisons are still inflicting crazy losses :( Now add to the mix AA units shooting down I N S A N E amount of aircraft now. So when trying to bomb a German unit with flak you will lose 1/2 of your planes minimum on most attacks if not more. I knew something could be wrong at the beginning of my current game with Soviet AA shoting down lots of aircraft. But WOW don't even think of bombing German PZ's with a lot of flak in their units you will lose your azz!!!!!!!!



_____________________________

“If you teach a man anything, he will never learn.”;

Bernard Shaw

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Post #: 168
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 7/7/2018 4:44:25 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Has the ammount of guns been increased for axis AA too then aswell as Soviet?

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 169
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 7/8/2018 6:55:22 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 2561
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

Has the ammount of guns been increased for axis AA too then aswell as Soviet?


I sent the turn back to you and you should be able to see the amount of guns firing now :). Pretty insane on some of those AA damage.

_____________________________

“If you teach a man anything, he will never learn.”;

Bernard Shaw

(in reply to SparkleyTits)
Post #: 170
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