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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN

 
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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/21/2018 4:17:36 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Seems this has degenerated into an “epeen” match with wheat through a third person. Interesting development but it seems to have been set up from the beginning.

So, you see the method in my madness...

I think Wheat's German approach is near perfect. If there is a Russian way to break it... I want to know what it is.


Well excellent!!!!! It is time for a new person to show up to show everyone new ways of "near perfect" execution. Let's see the Jedi WITE Master (or Sith Master if you are the "dark" side of things) at work with some AAR's or other material because I would love to learn new things myself. I am sure the community would like to see too but I can't speak for them. I am eagerly awaiting the "Wheat Master". Excuse me while I get some popcorn for the show ;-)



_____________________________

“If you teach a man anything, he will never learn.”;

Bernard Shaw

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 121
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/23/2018 2:49:29 PM   
thedoctorking


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So, no Wheat?

Please contact me via forum messaging. I am ready for a game under normal rules using 1.11.01 or .02 if it is out.

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 122
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/23/2018 7:44:29 PM   
morvael


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As of now the patch is out of my hands. Let's keep our fingers crossed for quick delivery. Of course this will take a few weeks...

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 123
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/23/2018 7:46:45 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

Posts: 564
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Wheeeey cheers guys!

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 124
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/24/2018 6:43:08 PM   
Wheat

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

So, no Wheat?

Please contact me via forum messaging. I am ready for a game under normal rules using 1.11.01 or .02 if it is out.


Sorry doctor, I don't really have the time.

I'm also sorry that Gamesaurus is overly touting my abilities. Ever since we took Pelton's advice and played a game with German morale increased 10%, he has had too much faith in the power of the German army. His current strategy is to pretty much surrender Leningrad and Moscow in 41, so, his strat is not YOUR strat. Thus, my capabilities are not what you think. Also, the new patch nerfing German logistics will further change the game, hopefully for the better.

Btw, surrendering those cities does not seem to hurt Russian manpower at all.

Bring on WITE 2.0!

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 125
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/26/2018 3:40:24 PM   
GamesaurusRex


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Wheat is entirely too modest. His skill with the Panzer Ball is very high.

It is not accurate to say that my strategy in our current game is "normal"... it is not, and my attempt to take the "long road" by avoiding combat in 41-early 42 in this game (this game with MILD winter and NO 1-1=2-1) was only arrived at after being butchered by the Panzer Ball in previous games where I attempted forward defense. In our previous game under the previous patch, I drove him back out of Moskow in the EXTREME winter with 1-1=2-1 option... and although successfully developing many Guards units and generally higher army morale, still resulted in the Russian army being cut down to 3.9 million by summer 42. Furthermore, we are not playing with German 10% morale bonus anymore... current game is at standard.

It is my firm opinion that Leningrad cannot be defended by the Russian against Wheat's Panzer Ball. Moskow might be held, but very likely at the cost of a pocket that will result in unacceptable losses. If the German Panzer Ball is played to full advantage (and Wheat does this consistently), there is no point for the Russian to play the game without extreme blizzard and the 1-1=2-1 option, as the German Panzer Ball is simply overpowered and seemingly impervious to any damage or loss throughout 41... especially if the played without extreme blizzard and no 1-1=2-1.

[In Wheat's defense regarding time... between our games and other Age of Conq HD online gaming we do, his wife will probably kill him if he takes on any more games. ]







< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 4/26/2018 3:50:58 PM >

(in reply to Wheat)
Post #: 126
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/26/2018 4:00:01 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

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I don't mean to be disrespectful here but if your strategy is to save forces in lew of losing critical objectives in 1941 and you hit summer 1942 with 3.9 mil OOB then something is going very wrong somewhere along the line with decision making bud

I'd personally try playing some different opponents so you can learn how to combat differing playstyles & deeper your own understanding of the different ways the game can be played to find a counter to Wheat then once you have more tricks under your belt try your luck with Wheat as an opponent again and see if anything changes and I am sure you would have much better luck!

Don't give up just keep trying to learn, adapt and overcome

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 127
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/26/2018 5:33:10 PM   
thedoctorking


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And play the Germans. Try to do it yourself. Once you have, you will have a much better idea of what the German armor is and is not capable of. In my current game against SparkleyTits, I have learned enormous amounts about how to use the Panzer forces. A couple of turns ago, I was about ready to pack it in, but now with relentless pummeling (and a bit of strategic misdirection) I have - to some extent - disjointed his lines and reopened the battle of maneuver (though my divisions are much weaker than they ought to be at this point in the war). There is so much depth to this game that one simple strategy is simply not going to cut it for long. People figure stuff out and then a few games come down and people figure out the countermeasure.

I remember six months ago everybody was griping about how the Russian air force can force the Luftwaffe from the air in 1941. Then, we figured out how to protect the Luftwaffe bases and now when ST tries bombing my airbases he loses 6-700 planes in a week.

(in reply to SparkleyTits)
Post #: 128
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/27/2018 9:04:16 PM   
GamesaurusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

I don't mean to be disrespectful here but if your strategy is to save forces in lew of losing critical objectives in 1941 and you hit summer 1942 with 3.9 mil OOB then something is going very wrong somewhere along the line with decision making bud

I'd personally try playing some different opponents so you can learn how to combat differing playstyles & deeper your own understanding of the different ways the game can be played to find a counter to Wheat then once you have more tricks under your belt try your luck with Wheat as an opponent again and see if anything changes and I am sure you would have much better luck!

Don't give up just keep trying to learn, adapt and overcome

You misread what I posted. The 3.9 million was arrived at after a hard fight forward with extreme blizzard and 1-1=2-1. That was under the patch BEFORE 1.11.00 The current game under 1.11.01 is where I have attempted to retreat where possible and fought only to delay for factory evacs. This was not a feasible strategy as failure to attack during the 41 winter causes the the "snowball" effect that results in a downward unit morale problem for the Russians. It has just ended with the German Panzer Ball reaching Kirov via Kazan by the end of summer 1942. Until you play Wheat, you don't understand what exploiting the Panzer ball means.

(in reply to SparkleyTits)
Post #: 129
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/27/2018 9:28:51 PM   
GamesaurusRex


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I have played the Germans enough to know the they have nothing to fear from Russian counter attack throughout 1941. If you are playing against a skilled German player, in 1941 any Russian troops that try to defend are just lining up for pocketing. If you stand and fight, they WILL be pocketed... there is nothing the Russian can do to stop this. Leningrad is in German hands before turn one is even played, the only question being how many units the Russian wants to give up there. Moscow, although it can be defended, is a death trap waiting to happen for whatever defends it... and if you don't use the "extreme blizzard" and "1-1=2-1" options, the Russian will have a poor winter counter attack and not reach the morale levels necessary to survive '42. Even the standard AP settings for the Russian are too low. We doubled it to 120 points per turn and I'm not sure that is high enough.

I have studied this game from both sides for five years now. Under the current patch and using the standard game settings, the problem is that the Russians are just entirely too weak during the 41-42 period.

(P.S.: I have tried to get Wheat to play a game versus thedoctorking and so far he has said his wife won't allow him more game time... but I promise you,one game with him will make you a believer.

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 4/28/2018 11:52:45 AM >

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 130
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/27/2018 9:54:09 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Soooooooo, Wheat is the Messaih and you John the Baptist spreading Wheat seads where they will germenate with the doom and gloom forcast. The only thing holding back the total apocolypse is Wheats wife (god) to save all of the WITE community. Ok, got it.

_____________________________

“If you teach a man anything, he will never learn.”;

Bernard Shaw

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 131
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/27/2018 9:56:58 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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I dont believe in your doom gloom scenerio in current patch not for 1 second. But do continue to preach Im sure you will have some followers ;-p


Even a stuck clock is correct twice a day.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 4/27/2018 9:58:45 PM >


_____________________________

“If you teach a man anything, he will never learn.”;

Bernard Shaw

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Post #: 132
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/27/2018 10:06:04 PM   
beender


Posts: 178
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From: Beijing, China
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Before changing NM which have a huge impact on the game as steph said previously, maybe we should try to give all blizzard and attack bonus options to the soviet first.

We can all agree that +1 attack bonus is not too strong for the soviet during summer.
And that Full blizzard is ok for the german during winter.

Some say there is a problem when we use both at the same time during winter. Never tested it but maybe true. Perhaps it is this we can try to modify. (Such as ending the soviet +1 attack bonus when the blizzard start instead of waiting for spring 1942).

We can also try to balance combat looses, manpower and tank production, etc...



Personally i am more concerned about the effects of the bonus in summer, which may or may not result in much smaller pockets.

In blizzard the Germans just need to run.

Btw im not so sure where the discussion is going now...

(in reply to Stelteck)
Post #: 133
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/27/2018 10:44:38 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beender


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Before changing NM which have a huge impact on the game as steph said previously, maybe we should try to give all blizzard and attack bonus options to the soviet first.

We can all agree that +1 attack bonus is not too strong for the soviet during summer.
And that Full blizzard is ok for the german during winter.

Some say there is a problem when we use both at the same time during winter. Never tested it but maybe true. Perhaps it is this we can try to modify. (Such as ending the soviet +1 attack bonus when the blizzard start instead of waiting for spring 1942).

We can also try to balance combat looses, manpower and tank production, etc...



Personally i am more concerned about the effects of the bonus in summer, which may or may not result in much smaller pockets.

In blizzard the Germans just need to run.

Btw im not so sure where the discussion is going now...



Ya, no kidding beender. The discussion seems to be traveling the 666 layers of the Abyss with Panzerball in tow. Just wait for the next rendition to be posted ;-)

_____________________________

“If you teach a man anything, he will never learn.”;

Bernard Shaw

(in reply to beender)
Post #: 134
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/29/2018 7:14:51 AM   
Djouk

 

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All your drama is resumed here HardLuck...

Sorry but i resume in this answer all i had to say now about this game that has become unplayable except against IA.

I had some bad feelings on latest patchs since months and i recognized it became very hard, nearly impossible to play soviets in 41-end 42 against some players where my army had became ridiculous compared axis on historical
perspectives.
Playing soviets, i was victim of super panzers making incredible breakthroughs fighting with no fatigue and impossible logistic... But unable to do that by my own playing axis. Ok i assumed i was simply bad, but septic.
It's great to make new patchs changing SDKFZ254 by the real historical SDKFZ254g, and discussing combat rules... but this become useless when you know this buildup method :

With first aid of a member of this forum i tested this method which works :

1. Move a unit from a HQ you want to buildup, i recommend only 1 hex of the unit most in the rear to avoid interdiction which unable undo move.
2. Go BuildUp the HQ.
3. Undo last move.
4. Until now all is normal because admin points go back.
5. But at the start of next turn your HQ has buildup for free !
6. You can do that as many time you want in a turn. This affects your motor pool but give you super powers...
7. No doubt that with all more prisoners and vehicules you can take your motor pool isn't so much affected

An other exploit i found is to edit an original scenario/campaign, then "exploiting" parameters and saving it and to propose it as the original on game server for the hosting player.
For exotics original scenarios just edit for example Campaign 41/45 then modify it save it and propose it on server. You can rename but to lure just use the same name than the orignal. Restriction is that other players must have
your extensions.

An other "funnies" :
I was rather well holding in pripet marsches. Then without axis breakthrough or any intrusion of enemy units in my rears and a good supply rail line all my units in marsches where surrounded by enemies ZOC and rails lines destroyed ... and so loosing marsches next turn...
May this be result of using HQ build every where on axis front at the same time !?!

For example I suspect an opponent to have increased growth of its forces, so at the end of 1942 he had more than 4 000 000 german soldiers even loosing nearly 2 000 000. Sorry but all become possible after that.
Moreover how to explain that in this same 41/45 bitter end campaign i had not a single SU-2 dive bomber and i have these in the new one ?!

Even not being a tester, i also remember i could air drop tigers in the past, no more possible now but i can still air drop normal infanterie in my own lines...

For the next patch it would be greater to allow multiple selections of support units for faster transfers to other hq : a huge gain in time for players.

Until all this not corrected it's useless playing multiplayer except to have fun to meet a cheater who believes you don't know what he's doing.

< Message edited by Djouk -- 5/15/2018 10:10:27 AM >

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 135
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/29/2018 4:26:20 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beender


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Before changing NM which have a huge impact on the game as steph said previously, maybe we should try to give all blizzard and attack bonus options to the soviet first.

We can all agree that +1 attack bonus is not too strong for the soviet during summer.
And that Full blizzard is ok for the german during winter.

Some say there is a problem when we use both at the same time during winter. Never tested it but maybe true. Perhaps it is this we can try to modify. (Such as ending the soviet +1 attack bonus when the blizzard start instead of waiting for spring 1942).

We can also try to balance combat looses, manpower and tank production, etc...



Personally i am more concerned about the effects of the bonus in summer, which may or may not result in much smaller pockets.

In blizzard the Germans just need to run.

Btw im not so sure where the discussion is going now...



I am about to post 8MP center turns 21-39 .. as German conducted a blizzard offensive <smile>


_____________________________

Laughter and tears are both responses to frustration and exhaustion. I myself prefer to laugh, since there is less cleaning up to do afterward. - Kurt Vonnegut

(in reply to beender)
Post #: 136
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/12/2018 5:03:09 AM   
56ajax


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T60, forced a german motorised div to retreat and destroyed, drum roll please, 23 AFVs. One attack destroys more than the rest of the Red Army in at least 3 months. Admittedly they were SPGs.

Bombed some Italian unit and in one mission destroyed 13 AFVs - all flame tanks. (Well they are now). WTF?

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When you escape from the lions den, it is unwise to go back for your hat.

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Post #: 137
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/12/2018 9:15:20 PM   
Icier


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I have been away for a while so haven't joined the discussion, which by the way seems to have gotten off topic..anyway there is
a terrific article on QUORA as to how the Germans recovered their tanks ( it goes for pages with great WW2 photos) & for all
budding Panzer Leaders well worth reading.

Any way here is only 1 paragraph that should put to bed how the Panzers seemed to be supermen.

German reports that up until late 1944 they were able to recover and repair up to 75 percent of tanks damaged in combat
or broken down due to defect or mechanical issue. Most damage to tanks was by anti-tank rifles or mines to the tracks
or drive wheels. This is relatively minor damage. All German tanks had massive jacks as part of their standard equipment
and tracks could be repaired or replaced in the field if neccessary, even if it was a quick fix for the ride back
to the repair depot. Lost drive wheels or return rollers were a bigger issue, though tanks can roll for quite some time
even without a couple of road wheels, though the possibility
of throwing a track was greater. A tank without a drive wheel or return roller had to be towed and it was a big deal.

_____________________________

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

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Post #: 138
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/13/2018 3:55:39 AM   
56ajax


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From: Carnegie, Australia
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Interesting, just read an article that said 75% of Shermans combat damaged/broke down were recovered. 75% seems to be the magic number. He who controls the battlefield wins the battle.

Too be honest I struggle to comprehend the crippling damage an anti tank rifle could do to a tank. The Germans called them a 'nuisance'.

_____________________________

When you escape from the lions den, it is unwise to go back for your hat.

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Post #: 139
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/13/2018 12:19:08 PM   
Telemecus


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At the battle of Kursk the Soviets famously got some recovery rates above 100% - some tanks had been out of action more than once during the battle!

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 140
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/14/2018 2:46:15 PM   
GamesaurusRex


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And for Morvael's ease of reference I would offer a useful source about the attrition effects of combat on German forces...

Read Chapter 12, entitled 'Victored to Death', of the book War Without Garlands by Robert J. Kershaw.

Read that and you will know what is wrong with the current state of the game balance. The mechanics of the game are not imposing anywhere near realistic levels of attrition on units for the simple act of movement... much less combat.
In reality, the German's won so much and frequently that it killed them.

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 5/14/2018 3:04:38 PM >

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 141
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/15/2018 9:05:56 PM   
elloboloco


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From: Sou Cal
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Is the HG buildup scenario posted by Djouk above true?

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 142
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/15/2018 10:12:48 PM   
Djouk

 

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It seems true as you can see in this Thread
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4479611

I understand what Hardluck tried to explain, but he just needed my proofs. Hard to inflict damages on panzers on hqbuild always full and ready or some others obscurs explanations.


< Message edited by Djouk -- 5/15/2018 10:22:34 PM >

(in reply to elloboloco)
Post #: 143
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/16/2018 3:24:48 AM   
thedoctorking


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I think the current patch is pretty balanced. I'm getting chewed up pretty bad as the Germans in 1942, and I'm not an entirely inexperienced player.

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 144
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/16/2018 5:43:14 AM   
chaos45

 

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no offense doctorking, but your german opening was alot weaker than normal. This allowed the Soviet player in your game to save a massive amount of additional forces that in a more competitive game they wouldn't have access to.

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 145
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/17/2018 5:56:43 AM   
thedoctorking


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Yeah, still learning. There's a lot I'd do differently now.

I just got a new game against a very aggressive German player. We'll see how it works out for him. I'm still unconvinced that the only thing the Russians can do in 1941-42 is run for the Urals.

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 146
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/17/2018 9:14:12 AM   
Nix77

 

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I don't have too much experience on the 1.11.01 patch, but seems to me TheDoctorKing is advancing quite slowly with the panzer spearheads in the AAR against Isaac, so that's probably not a good example on current gameplay balance.

In a game of WitE's magnitude and scope, getting a large enough sample of evenly matched gameplay to make calls on balance is unfortunately quite impossible.

I don't know if we have even seen a single example of an "evenly matched" game here in the forums. It's a rare case for an AAR to come even close. In almost all games the experience and skill level of the players vary, and on top of that both of the players make mistakes and unorthodox tactical and strategic choices that just cause any effort to judge gameplay balance go haywire :)

On the subject of "Run to the Urals" (up the Irons!), I comply with TheDoctorKing: I think the Soviets can do well with a carefully planned forward defense that slows the German advance just enough. If I'm wrong, then I think there's something to be corrected in the game ;)

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 147
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/17/2018 5:49:25 PM   
Crackaces


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1) Do not forget the logistics phase when you count battle casualties. Push an armored unit back across a river or through 2 ZOC's and the logistics phase will show a much worse result.

2) Certain Soviets have perfected the "Soaking attack". Taking weak units and attacking a unit for the sole purpose of depleting ammo. Thus, a change in operational moves to keep panzers from getting smacked by these attacks. But should a Panzer get too far out it is quite possible to set up an attack that pushes a division through ZOC's. The battle report might show 10 AFV's, lost but again the Logistics phase will show a different story.

3) For the superman panzer divisions .. German's are still resigning turns 5-12 ... There seems to be some complexities to this game to fully take advantage of this exploit.

_____________________________

Laughter and tears are both responses to frustration and exhaustion. I myself prefer to laugh, since there is less cleaning up to do afterward. - Kurt Vonnegut

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Post #: 148
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/17/2018 7:09:41 PM   
thedoctorking


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I'm advancing about as fast as I can, given the supply problems. When a panzer division has like 15 MP's, my philosophy is that you are better off sitting quietly with it and trying to build up fuel, or doing an HQBU if you have the AP's to spare.

I am playing a game against a very aggressive German opponent who has allowed me to isolate whole panzer armies twice now. That's got to be bad for his supply situation.

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 149
RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 5/18/2018 6:33:23 AM   
Nix77

 

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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

I'm advancing about as fast as I can, given the supply problems. When a panzer division has like 15 MP's, my philosophy is that you are better off sitting quietly with it and trying to build up fuel, or doing an HQBU if you have the AP's to spare.

I am playing a game against a very aggressive German opponent who has allowed me to isolate whole panzer armies twice now. That's got to be bad for his supply situation.


Yeah, I was worried about the German supply after the patch, but haven't really had the time to test it out. I was using HQBU really aggressively before 1.11.00, so I guess I would be advancing way more slowly too :)

I'm acting as a "second-in-command" or kind of a sideline advisor in a game that my friend is playing, and the German player is really having trouble advancing with the panzers, but I don't think he's concentrating forces enough. The front will be west of Nikolaev-Kiev-Vitebsk-Velikie Luki line after the blizzard, and the panzers don't seem that super at all :D

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 150
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