THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
Moderator: maddog986
THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
Vast subject and debate here but, in terms of WW2 grand strategy games, what would be the requirements for you of THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game?
Strategic Command WWII War in Europe
Commander - Europe at War Gold
Gary Grigsby's World at War: A World Divided
Time of Fury
World in Flames
Each game has its strengths and weaknesses. And, alas, I am always lacking something.
Strategic Command WWII War in Europe
Commander - Europe at War Gold
Gary Grigsby's World at War: A World Divided
Time of Fury
World in Flames
Each game has its strengths and weaknesses. And, alas, I am always lacking something.
Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
All the above! [:)]
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RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
I would start with the greatest game ever made – World In Flames – and then throw an unlimited budget it at it to make a World In Flames Computer version.
I would keep all the great things that make the game so damn good;
- It is designed for either side to win.
- You can play the whole war – not just Europe or Pacific – on one scale.
- Despite the fact either side can win, the game feels and smells and acts like it’s a WWII game thanks to the framework rules in place. Whether the leader of Germany, Japan, the Commonwealth or whoever, a player’s problems are those faced by those countries – and all without strait-jacketing a player in terms of options.
- All options come at a price – the biggest being early/late US entry depending on how aggressive one wants to be - and the game does this so well.
- Considering it’s a strategic game – the detail is excellent. No of course the OOB aren’t 100% accurate, the counter values are not always completely true and the optional builds are sometimes fantasy – all for balance purposes – but to have a strategic game where I can play with just about every warship of light cruiser and larger (plus a load of what-ifs) is amazing.
- The variety of the counter types add to this – Armour, Motorised, Mechanised, Infantry, Para, Engineers, Marines, Garrison, Territorials, Militia, HQs, Partisans and even more.
- The game has a wonderfully finished, colourful quality about it – without making it seem beer and pretzels.
- The one downer with the board game (post version 5) was the maps – but Matrix World In Flames fixed that and also provided the whole world in hex format!
- The game mechanics ensure that this game is infinitely replayable.
What sort of things could be changed now that this is a computer game and cardboard restrictions no longer apply – but that keep the basic World In Flames idea?
- The game could take into account actual population numbers to work out total build limits (+ allowing for things like Soviet volunteers for the Wehrmacht, Free French etc).
- The land unit detail could be brought up to navy and air force detail
- The basic unit could move to division perhaps – and the aircraft counters could be increased accordingly. If it becomes possible to mount a Weserubung or a Menace or an Ironclad in a strategic game that would be pretty damn amazing
- I would then look at tweeking (no wholesale changes) the rules – particularly the naval rules. At present the game provides the RN with monitors – but they cannot be used as such. Also the game needs destroyers and corvettes etc as the basic ASW unit.
- I would also make one of the ship's counters more realistic in terms of her combat factors too. The game makers seem to have made a bit of a faux pas [;)]
I would keep all the great things that make the game so damn good;
- It is designed for either side to win.
- You can play the whole war – not just Europe or Pacific – on one scale.
- Despite the fact either side can win, the game feels and smells and acts like it’s a WWII game thanks to the framework rules in place. Whether the leader of Germany, Japan, the Commonwealth or whoever, a player’s problems are those faced by those countries – and all without strait-jacketing a player in terms of options.
- All options come at a price – the biggest being early/late US entry depending on how aggressive one wants to be - and the game does this so well.
- Considering it’s a strategic game – the detail is excellent. No of course the OOB aren’t 100% accurate, the counter values are not always completely true and the optional builds are sometimes fantasy – all for balance purposes – but to have a strategic game where I can play with just about every warship of light cruiser and larger (plus a load of what-ifs) is amazing.
- The variety of the counter types add to this – Armour, Motorised, Mechanised, Infantry, Para, Engineers, Marines, Garrison, Territorials, Militia, HQs, Partisans and even more.
- The game has a wonderfully finished, colourful quality about it – without making it seem beer and pretzels.
- The one downer with the board game (post version 5) was the maps – but Matrix World In Flames fixed that and also provided the whole world in hex format!
- The game mechanics ensure that this game is infinitely replayable.
What sort of things could be changed now that this is a computer game and cardboard restrictions no longer apply – but that keep the basic World In Flames idea?
- The game could take into account actual population numbers to work out total build limits (+ allowing for things like Soviet volunteers for the Wehrmacht, Free French etc).
- The land unit detail could be brought up to navy and air force detail
- The basic unit could move to division perhaps – and the aircraft counters could be increased accordingly. If it becomes possible to mount a Weserubung or a Menace or an Ironclad in a strategic game that would be pretty damn amazing
- I would then look at tweeking (no wholesale changes) the rules – particularly the naval rules. At present the game provides the RN with monitors – but they cannot be used as such. Also the game needs destroyers and corvettes etc as the basic ASW unit.
- I would also make one of the ship's counters more realistic in terms of her combat factors too. The game makers seem to have made a bit of a faux pas [;)]
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Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
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RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
I'd have to say, based on ability to play it in a realistic time frame in other words with a week, Strategic Command 1
I have not played the 2 and 3 versions though.
But occasionally you mess things up when you complicate them up too. So I'm sticking with SC1.
Now if you have no life, and nothing but time, well I suppose World In Flames. But I just don't have that sort of time. And hey I'm retired, you'd think I would have the time. But I like to do other things, like walks, shopping, baking, etc, so there just are not enough hours in the day
Played solo (you vs you), or vs a human, it's hard to beat SC1. Granted, the file security is dreadful so I'm qualifying my comment with 'has to be hotseat' for multi player.
I have not played the 2 and 3 versions though.
But occasionally you mess things up when you complicate them up too. So I'm sticking with SC1.
Now if you have no life, and nothing but time, well I suppose World In Flames. But I just don't have that sort of time. And hey I'm retired, you'd think I would have the time. But I like to do other things, like walks, shopping, baking, etc, so there just are not enough hours in the day
Played solo (you vs you), or vs a human, it's hard to beat SC1. Granted, the file security is dreadful so I'm qualifying my comment with 'has to be hotseat' for multi player.
Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.
RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
ORIGINAL: warspite1
I would start with the greatest game ever made – World In Flames – and then throw an unlimited budget it at it to make a World In Flames Computer version.
What sort of things could be changed now that this is a computer game and cardboard restrictions no longer apply – but that keep the basic World In Flames idea?
Along these lines, I would suggest Blitz! A World in Conflict, an army-level adaptation of World in Flames. But make the map more realistic. Something along these lines should be easier to code, implement AI, and complete gameplay in a reasonable amount of time. I'd like to see that.
Bill Macon
Empires in Arms Developer
Strategic Command Developer
Empires in Arms Developer
Strategic Command Developer
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RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
Vast subject and debate here but, in terms of WW2 grand strategy games, what would be the requirements for you of THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game?
Strategic Command WWII War in Europe
Commander - Europe at War Gold
Gary Grigsby's World at War: A World Divided
Time of Fury
World in Flames
Each game has its strengths and weaknesses. And, alas, I am always lacking something.
Yep, you left out "Making History I and/or II.
RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
My requirements would be surely unplayable...
At least, I would like this game to:
. cover the world i.e. europe and pacific keeping the same scale for the entire map
. start in 1936 (for Spanish civil war and sino japanese war in 1937)
. be consistent in terms of scale !!! This is for time scale and unit scale.
. and, have a good and detailed naval warfare simulation.
Really want to see a good Battle of the Atlantic and the relationship between the decline of the U-boats and the increase of the Strategic Bombing campaign over Germany. Less bombers over the ocean needed.
At least, I would like this game to:
. cover the world i.e. europe and pacific keeping the same scale for the entire map
. start in 1936 (for Spanish civil war and sino japanese war in 1937)
. be consistent in terms of scale !!! This is for time scale and unit scale.
. and, have a good and detailed naval warfare simulation.
Really want to see a good Battle of the Atlantic and the relationship between the decline of the U-boats and the increase of the Strategic Bombing campaign over Germany. Less bombers over the ocean needed.
Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
I think so far the best can be Strategic Command WW2, I can say that I enjoy Making History the first game.
RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
I enjoyed the first MH game too. Lots of fun. Haven't tried the latest SC but now I would say HOI3 is the most fun for me personally.
As far as requirements go, the AI is the limiting factor here. It simply cannot make strategic level decisions intelligently and turn that into a theatre by theatre combined arms battle plan. No matter which one you play, it sucks at something. Over producing this, under producing that. Strange unit movements and none seem able to invade anywhere effectively by sea. Even in HOI3, the AI does not recognize the difference in the types of divisions. It will use garrison troops on the offensive or armor divisions for garrisons.
It really is time for some genius somewhere to come up with an AI that understands the strategic game but that may be far into the future after I am long gone.
As far as requirements go, the AI is the limiting factor here. It simply cannot make strategic level decisions intelligently and turn that into a theatre by theatre combined arms battle plan. No matter which one you play, it sucks at something. Over producing this, under producing that. Strange unit movements and none seem able to invade anywhere effectively by sea. Even in HOI3, the AI does not recognize the difference in the types of divisions. It will use garrison troops on the offensive or armor divisions for garrisons.
It really is time for some genius somewhere to come up with an AI that understands the strategic game but that may be far into the future after I am long gone.
My shrink says I have anger management and conflict resolution issues....and I'LL FIGHT ANYBODY THAT DISAGREES!
RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
I just started SC and have to say I am impressed. I thought the naval portion would be too abstract, but it is fascinating. Lots of decisions to make or break your effort. Not to mention a real battle of the Atlantic. Great job from the developers.
RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
Probably SCWW2 with an enhanced naval component (in the works) and better AI. HOI3 is pretty intense, so second slot would be HOI4 with enhanced AI.
RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
HOI games are great as a general design wise especially HOI4 but unfortunately the AI is not working and a lot of mechanisms need re balancing and some areas need to be more in depth in order things to be working, it is a mess right now, and I dont think it can achieve what other strategic level games achieved in term of being a tight and well made game. The best so far of HOI games (overall) is Darkest Hour
RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
HOI is interesting for years between 1936 and 1939. But, as soon as war is starting, I am overwhelmed by the number of things to do in real time missing plenty of things. That is why I prefer turn based game to have the time to think.
Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
One question for all of you. What is the good unit scale, in your opinion, for this kind of game?
. High level like Fronts (USSR) facing Armies (GER)
. Medium level like Armies (USSR) facing Corps (GER)
. Detailed level like Corps (USSR) facing Division (GER)
I do not think a level under division is convenient for such games but you may have a different opinion.
. High level like Fronts (USSR) facing Armies (GER)
. Medium level like Armies (USSR) facing Corps (GER)
. Detailed level like Corps (USSR) facing Division (GER)
I do not think a level under division is convenient for such games but you may have a different opinion.
Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
One question for all of you. What is the good unit scale, in your opinion, for this kind of game?
. High level like Fronts (USSR) facing Armies (GER)
. Medium level like Armies (USSR) facing Corps (GER)
. Detailed level like Corps (USSR) facing Division (GER)
Ideally, I would prefer medium level.
But realistically I want an enjoyable computer wargame that is playable and replayable. This means relatively bug-free, challenging computer opponent, and playable within a reasonable time (days-weeks, not months-years). So realistically, high level would be fine.
Too many games try to do too much, like A Bridge Too Far, and ultimately players end up with a game not worth playing. MWiF should (will?) be fine as a medium level game with its optional additional detail but it's taking forever to complete. So we wait. Might as well try for a high level game too, yes?
Bill Macon
Empires in Arms Developer
Strategic Command Developer
Empires in Arms Developer
Strategic Command Developer
RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
HoI is worthless to me. Watching a squadron of 109's eat several wings of Sabers alive over Brest [:-] I have better ways of wasting my time.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
Right now, for the PC, Hearts of Iron III + the Black Ice Mod.
In ten years it will be Matrix' World in Flames.
In ten years it will be Matrix' World in Flames.
"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"
(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"
(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")
RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
A wwII strategy game without German Kampfgruppe is not credible. [:-]
RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
warspite1ORIGINAL: Lecivius
Watching a squadron of 109's eat several wings of Sabers alive over Brest [:-] I have better ways of wasting my time.
I know where you are coming from on this. I was playing MWIF the other day with my war gaming partner and my Me-109's were duelling with P-38's over Brest, while my Fw-190's were engaged with MiG-3's over Brest-Litovsk.
I thought this is madness, why are two grown men fighting over a pair of Brests?
Matrix World In Flames - where the answer is always Beewwwbbbss
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: THE ultimate WW2 grand strategy game
A wwII strategy game without columns of refugees who block communication lines is not credible.[:-]