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RE: New Scenario Editor - 8/23/2017 9:51:44 PM   
witpqs


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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ancient seaman

what i meant was that right now it is impossible to fast edit large quantities of data.Lets say that you need to change every low grada IJAs officer insiration to another value.To do so someone has to go to the editor and change every single officer at a time and they rae 1000s.In excel type of editors you just peek a row and do marvels.
Just FYI, you can do that now editing the CSV files with a spreadsheet. That does entail using witploadAE to dump the scenario files to the spreadsheet and then load them back after you are finished (while that is not difficult many people don't feel technology-comfortable enough to do it).

BTW when is it going to be ready?



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Post #: 31
RE: New Scenario Editor - 8/25/2017 5:16:01 AM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

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One of the ideas for the new editor that I have been kicking around in my head has been a feature I have dubbed "Scenario from Save". The idea is simply to take a saved game file and turn it into a Scenario. I originally envisioned it as just a way to turn an interesting game situation into a Scenario. As I've pondered it, I can see some uses for it I did not originally envision.

Disclaimer: Before I go too much further, I want to acknowledge and have acknowledged that the ideas listed below are a kludge. Ideally, the AI would be modified as the game progressed and there would be more slots for scripts available and more script features (like an actual scripting language), stop loss settings, dynamic sizing, wildcards for LCU/air groups, etc. I'm simply trying to think of ways to work with the few tools we get to address some situations that cause WitP:AE players angst.

Anyway, some thoughts on how it might be used:

1) It can serve to accelerate testing of AI scripts.

Take PaxMondo's situation as he refers to in this thread: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4331665&mpage=3

The problem is that each iteration of his AI script he needs to play the game to the point in time the script activates to test it. He has no way of knowing if his scripts work as desired until he gets the game to the point the script would trigger. To test late/mid game scripts takes playing the game to that point. So, how might you use "Scenario from Save" to help with that?
a. Pax creates his scenario file and identifies some guinea pigs (hereafter referred to as GP's) to test it for him. Each of those GP's (General Patton almost HAS to be a tester, right?) play the game for a period of time - say 3 months. At the end of that period, they each send Pax the save. Each of those GP's might be asked to take a different tack in that phase of the game. Brave sir robin, Palembang defense, etc. to simulate different player approaches against the AI.
b. Pax takes the received files and evaluates his script performance and determines if tweaks are needed, adds new scripts, etc. If he determines that new scripts are needed, he adds them to his existing AI file.
c. The AI file gets embedded into the save file when the first turn of game is run, so it is locked in. Here is where "Scenario from Save" comes in. Pax loads the turn file into two copies of Tracker - one for Allies, one for Japan. Then in the scenario editor (SE), he selects "Scenario from Save" and gets prompted for 4 things: folder location of the two tracker instances, game date to create on, and a scenario slot to save the new scenario to. SE then pulls state from both tracker DB's and creates a new scenario from the state in tracker and saves the files using the scenario number requested.
d. Pax copies and renames his new scenario file to match the new scenario number.
e. Pax can then zip and send the complete set of scenario files to his GP. The whole process begins again from step one, but with from a new, later start date.
f. His scenario file can evolve with the state of the game without constantly restarting on 12/7/41. He can even go back to "save points" in the game. If a GP has a save file from before a bad/catastrophic scripts began, he can modify it and try again.
g. The above DOES come with costs. There is state information that cannot be saved (pilot skills are not in tracker/scenario files - only exp), or should not be saved (e.g. KIA's clutter up pilot DB. Only 20k pilots can be in scenario files, but 70k in save files). However, it could greatly improve AI testing (and therefore make it easier to test AI scripts).
h. This works in part because the AI refers to bases, LCU's, air groups, HQ's, etc. by their "slot id" which could be preserved by "Scenario from Save".
2) Eventually, another use for this might be possible - to improve AI performance in AI games. By extracting state from a game and rewriting the AI scripts to handle the current state of the game, the AI could be made more reactive to game situations. An expert system AI written to create AI scripts could dynamically analyze the game state and generate AI/new scenario files to better fight the war and provide more variety to the AI play. An AI file only allows for 1999 "scripts" to cover the entire war. If there were 1999 available to fight a 3 month period of the war and they were "written" based upon the state of the war as pulled from tracker, it might be possible to greatly improve the quality of the AI as an opponent.
3) Finally, if 2) occurs, then it becomes possible to address the "Disappearing JFB" phenomenon. If a JFB decides to depart from a game and provides the password to his opponent, 1 & 2 above could be used to turn a PBEM into a AI game. While the opportunity "To crush your enemies. See them driven before you. And to hear the lamentations of their women." would be mitigated - at least a game could be played to a finish by the Allied player against a marginally competent opponent.

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Post #: 32
RE: New Scenario Editor - 8/25/2017 12:36:25 PM   
ancient doctor

 

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Could you please explain to the naive and stupid me - no joke here - how can i do what you mentioned WITPQS?cause its really very difficult to do the type of editing without it.Thanks

< Message edited by Ancient seaman -- 8/25/2017 12:37:16 PM >

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Post #: 33
RE: New Scenario Editor - 8/25/2017 12:39:57 PM   
PaxMondo


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Item c is the key: you need input from a dev as to how that happens. The AI files get imbedded into the game file itself and cannot be changed. That is one thing we know.

We know that the save game and the scenario game files are quite different. And anecdotally, my understanding if Michael was able to do this for Andy, it was difficult and not done often. I say that as Andy has also mentioned the same issue ....

Just saying that this is a great goal, but I fear there are some parts that are missing ...

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Post #: 34
RE: New Scenario Editor - 8/25/2017 2:54:45 PM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Item c is the key: you need input from a dev as to how that happens. The AI files get imbedded into the game file itself and cannot be changed. That is one thing we know.

We know that the save game and the scenario game files are quite different. And anecdotally, my understanding if Michael was able to do this for Andy, it was difficult and not done often. I say that as Andy has also mentioned the same issue ....

Just saying that this is a great goal, but I fear there are some parts that are missing ...

Each time you do this, you are starting a new game, with new scenario files and (potentially) updated ai file. I'm never updating the save. I'm using trackers ability to extract data from the save file and using the db it creates to create the new scenario so that the game state matches as closely as possible the state of the game in progress. Ships sunk are still sunk, lcus destroyed are destroyed, bases and forts built are built, pilots in air groups will be in air groups, lcus will be in the same state of disablement/damage, supply levels will match, etc., etc.

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Post #: 35
RE: New Scenario Editor - 8/25/2017 3:25:24 PM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ancient seaman

Could you please explain to the naive and stupid me - no joke here - how can i do what you mentioned WITPQS?cause its really very difficult to do the type of editing without it.Thanks

Look for a file called witploadae.exe. using that program, you can extract scenario info to .csv files. You can then modify data in excel and then import using the same utility.

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Post #: 36
RE: New Scenario Editor - 8/25/2017 3:52:36 PM   
btd64


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MI, I have been following. This is Looking go....GP

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Post #: 37
RE: New Scenario Editor - 8/25/2017 4:38:59 PM   
Admiral DadMan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ancient seaman

Could you please explain to the naive and stupid me - no joke here - how can i do what you mentioned WITPQS?cause its really very difficult to do the type of editing without it.Thanks

Look for a file called witploadae.exe. using that program, you can extract scenario info to .csv files. You can then modify data in excel and then import using the same utility.


I have found out the hard way that one must be very careful working solely in excel. You have to understand the causal relationships between certain categories/files.


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(> <)


Saratoga's ultimate re-build:


(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)
Post #: 38
RE: New Scenario Editor - 8/25/2017 5:27:10 PM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan


quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ancient seaman

Could you please explain to the naive and stupid me - no joke here - how can i do what you mentioned WITPQS?cause its really very difficult to do the type of editing without it.Thanks

Look for a file called witploadae.exe. using that program, you can extract scenario info to .csv files. You can then modify data in excel and then import using the same utility.


I have found out the hard way that one must be very careful working solely in excel. You have to understand the causal relationships between certain categories/files.


Pretty sure I'm aware of the types of constraints you're referring to, but would you give some examples? I'd like to test my knowledge/the editor against known problems.

(in reply to Admiral DadMan)
Post #: 39
RE: New Scenario Editor - 8/25/2017 6:14:19 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 22607
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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan


quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ancient seaman

Could you please explain to the naive and stupid me - no joke here - how can i do what you mentioned WITPQS?cause its really very difficult to do the type of editing without it.Thanks

Look for a file called witploadae.exe. using that program, you can extract scenario info to .csv files. You can then modify data in excel and then import using the same utility.


I have found out the hard way that one must be very careful working solely in excel. You have to understand the causal relationships between certain categories/files.


Pretty sure I'm aware of the types of constraints you're referring to, but would you give some examples? I'd like to test my knowledge/the editor against known problems.

I think the help text and the readme file for witploadAE.exe take pains to point out that when uploading into scenario files the data is *not* validated, so certainly cross-reference validation would not be done either.

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Post #: 40
RE: New Scenario Editor - 8/25/2017 9:15:57 PM   
Admiral DadMan


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From: Rouges Island, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan


quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ancient seaman

Could you please explain to the naive and stupid me - no joke here - how can i do what you mentioned WITPQS?cause its really very difficult to do the type of editing without it.Thanks

Look for a file called witploadae.exe. using that program, you can extract scenario info to .csv files. You can then modify data in excel and then import using the same utility.


I have found out the hard way that one must be very careful working solely in excel. You have to understand the causal relationships between certain categories/files.


Pretty sure I'm aware of the types of constraints you're referring to, but would you give some examples? I'd like to test my knowledge/the editor against known problems.

Well, for example: let's say that it annoys you that the US carriers and battleships are not in order of hull number, and it bothers you enough to want to re-order them. You first want to swap Hornet for Wasp (CV-8 for CV-7) in the order of ships. You must now also go into the Air Groups and point their air groups to the correct slot as well. If you don't, Wasp will have Hornet's planes and vice versa.

If you insert Ranger between Saratoga and Yorktown (in Excel), you have to re-set all umpteen air groups affected by in effect, moving all ships down. Not only that, but if an LCU was attached to a certain ship, it would skew as well.

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(> <)


Saratoga's ultimate re-build:


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Post #: 41
RE: New Scenario Editor - 8/26/2017 5:25:29 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 22607
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From: Argleton
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InfiniteMonkey,

Just a quick note - I had forgotten about witploadAI.exe. I just noticed it in the Beta2 folder, so hopefully you have it. I'm sure it came with a Beta release, but I don't recall if it has been included with all of them.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 42
RE: New Scenario Editor - 8/26/2017 5:38:43 PM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3316
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From: Rouges Island, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

InfiniteMonkey,

Just a quick note - I had forgotten about witploadAI.exe. I just noticed it in the Beta2 folder, so hopefully you have it. I'm sure it came with a Beta release, but I don't recall if it has been included with all of them.




I just saw this too... interesting.



_____________________________

A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
(\../)
(O.o)
(> <)


Saratoga's ultimate re-build:


(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 43
RE: New Scenario Editor - 8/29/2017 4:07:51 PM   
drw61


Posts: 892
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From: South Carolina
Status: offline
Thanks for doing this InfiniteMonkey
I've wanted to do DaBigBabes so that I can play as Japan against the AI, this looks like it may make that possible.
Daryl

< Message edited by drw61 -- 8/29/2017 4:19:37 PM >

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Post #: 44
RE: New Scenario Editor - 9/7/2017 2:03:50 AM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

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Scenario editor is progressing nicely given how little time I've worked on it. Nowhere near done, but I'm getting to the point where I have some interesting things to show. A picture is worth 1000 words... and a ten minute video is 18000 pictures...

I hope to put together a demo video of current state / look and feel of the new editor soon. Unfortunately, I caught something this weekend and I can't talk for more than a sentence or two without coughing. So the demo video will have to wait.

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Post #: 45
RE: New Scenario Editor - 9/7/2017 9:39:42 PM   
traskott

 

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Thanks you for all the effort!!

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Post #: 46
RE: New Scenario Editor - 9/9/2017 8:19:30 PM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

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Okay, so the short 10 minute video became more like 45 minutes. Sorry, I am an old windbag...

Let me know what you think: https://youtu.be/Hy4Nga3EzO8

Note: If it's blurry, change your video quality to HD.

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Post #: 47
RE: New Scenario Editor - 9/9/2017 11:15:37 PM   
btd64


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IM, I like where you are going with this. If you could include the air or naval art in the unit windows, That would tell you if you have it and it's assigned correctly. Looking forward to testing this editor....GP

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AKA General Patton

WPO,WITP,WITPAE-Mod Designer/Tester
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TotS-Alpha Tester
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Post #: 48
RE: New Scenario Editor - 9/10/2017 4:08:09 AM   
BillBrown


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IM, watched the whole thing. I do like where you are going.
The most frustrating thing about the existing editor is that there is
no cross checking. The next would be having to work with one screen/entity at a time.

If you do complete most of what you have laid out, I would seriously consider doing a
mod of my own. Whether that is a good thing or not is to be determined.

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 49
RE: New Scenario Editor - 9/10/2017 6:06:58 AM   
paradigmblue

 

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This is great work, thank you for taking this on.

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Post #: 50
RE: New Scenario Editor - 9/11/2017 12:45:00 PM   
bigcatnote


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InfiniteMonkey
Can you take this New Scenario Editor download link in here?your google site I can't find.
thank you very much!

(in reply to ancient doctor)
Post #: 51
RE: New Scenario Editor - 10/14/2017 12:22:48 AM   
riflebrigade

 

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There are many types of players, some are satisfied just playing the game where others have an interest in game play, game data and game mechanics.

The concept for the new scenario editor will be great for many players and will offer another level to their enjoyment of the game.

Thank you infinitemonkey for a great idea, your time and expertise in undertaking this project.

I hope it does not take up too much of your free time as you appear to be the type of person who will be consistently thinking of how to improve the program and many players could be offering their upgrade suggestions after the base program is completed.

(in reply to ancient doctor)
Post #: 52
RE: New Scenario Editor - 10/27/2017 7:18:25 AM   
Ian R

 

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One request -

At the moment it does not seem possible to switch off the radio buttons for withdraw 1 or withdraw 2 in the LCU locations data screen. You can switch from one to the other, but once one is clicked you are stuck with one of them. While this may not seem to matter if you have no withdraw date set, or you set the date at 1963 or something, it actually does have an effect in game - even if there is no withdraw date, units with a withdraw button clicked cannot be rebuilt from the destroyed units screen.

Some modders might want to treat this as a feature, so that, e.g., if you lose the 6th Rangers you can't get them back. If so then they can just click a withdraw button and leave the date blank.

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Post #: 53
RE: New Scenario Editor - 1/8/2018 4:12:22 AM   
BillBrown


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Any further update on this effort?

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Post #: 54
RE: New Scenario Editor - 1/8/2018 2:52:57 PM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

Posts: 346
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

Any further update on this effort?

Still an active project for me, but it has slowed. I am working on a design for a new Pacific War game and I vacillate between the two a good bit. The new game ends up getting more of my time. Threads like this one:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4408826&mpage=2

Get me thinking about the Editor and game design both. For the editor, the above post sparked thinking about the same question I had about LCU combat ratings:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4356494

I already had a similar question running circles in my head regarding AA ratings on ships and Gun ratings on aircraft.


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Post #: 55
RE: New Scenario Editor - 1/11/2018 3:12:06 PM   
el cid again

 

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There is a problem running the existing scenario editor with respect to the Scenario Tab.
There are four buttons in the Lower Left Corner - the top two are Main and Pilots -
two others below them are not visible in current operating systems. To edit those buttons
requires one run the editor in Vista or XP.

Similar to the three supplemental editors (related to pwhexe.dat, pwzone.dat, and pwzlink.dat
files), there are display and functional issues with using modern, widescreen displays. An
ideal editor might incorporate all the features of all of these editors. That might permit
being able to display everything related to a hex location at the same time.

One problem with these editors - two of which were updated somewhat by DW Bradley, and one
was partially documented by Joe Wilkerson - is a lack of complete definition of values for
various fields. Related to that, stock and virtually all custom scenarios have incorrect
field values in many places for a variety of reasons - including apparently use of some
kind of program to generate values (non-zero) in some areas - and confusion - and perhaps
other unknown considerations. To the degree these field value are understood, they might
be defined in supporting documentation (or in imbedded tables for each field with the options
defined).

Just making suggestions from the point of view of a user who gets deep into the mechanics
of the electronic map (the map from the program's point of view). The better it is defined,
the better code can implement it.

This is an amazing undertaking and I am very surprised to see it at this date. But if you
make it work, I will use it.

(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 56
RE: New Scenario Editor - 1/25/2018 10:45:00 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 15500
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Hey Sir.

Since I have been working on re-tooling BTSL and BTS I am concerned that in deleting a bunch of the extra ZERO variants that I've missed some of the reinforcements coming in and left them with the now non-existent aircraft. Is your tool able to cross check and find that? I am sure that I've missed some and am increasingly paranoid about that...


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Post #: 57
RE: New Scenario Editor - 1/26/2018 1:44:24 AM   
BillBrown


Posts: 1314
Joined: 6/15/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

There is a problem running the existing scenario editor with respect to the Scenario Tab.
There are four buttons in the Lower Left Corner - the top two are Main and Pilots -
two others below them are not visible in current operating systems. To edit those buttons
requires one run the editor in Vista or XP.


Similar to the three supplemental editors (related to pwhexe.dat, pwzone.dat, and pwzlink.dat
files), there are display and functional issues with using modern, widescreen displays. An
ideal editor might incorporate all the features of all of these editors. That might permit
being able to display everything related to a hex location at the same time.

One problem with these editors - two of which were updated somewhat by DW Bradley, and one
was partially documented by Joe Wilkerson - is a lack of complete definition of values for
various fields. Related to that, stock and virtually all custom scenarios have incorrect
field values in many places for a variety of reasons - including apparently use of some
kind of program to generate values (non-zero) in some areas - and confusion - and perhaps
other unknown considerations. To the degree these field value are understood, they might
be defined in supporting documentation (or in imbedded tables for each field with the options
defined).

Just making suggestions from the point of view of a user who gets deep into the mechanics
of the electronic map (the map from the program's point of view). The better it is defined,
the better code can implement it.

This is an amazing undertaking and I am very surprised to see it at this date. But if you
make it work, I will use it.


The bolded part is incorrect, it works just fine in Windows 7 as long as you have your text display set to 100% and not larger.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 58
RE: New Scenario Editor - 1/27/2018 10:51:25 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16200
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That is an interesting idea. Not that I could read the text if it was 100%
on a high resolution screen - it may be possible to work in a lower resolution
setting. Mifune got me doing art - and got me working in extremely high
resolution modes. Anyway - the editor DOES work in Vista even at high resolution
settings. I maintain XP and Vista machines for legacy software purposes (isolated
from the internet - they cannot be infected).

(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 59
RE: New Scenario Editor - 1/27/2018 5:48:58 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 3948
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I can confirm that the editor - scenario 4 buttons are visible in W7

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 60
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