Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Maritime Navigation

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> RE: Maritime Navigation Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/13/2017 8:43:24 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 2987
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline
Or you could just follow, albeit at a distance, the ship ahead!

_____________________________


(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 31
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/13/2017 9:00:43 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 4449
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Or you could just follow, albeit at a distance, the ship ahead!

Ever hear of Honda Point?





Attachment (1)

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 32
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/13/2017 9:26:13 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 2987
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline
Indeed I have. It's talked about at SWO School. My key words are "at a distance"......

_____________________________


(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 33
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/14/2017 4:54:36 AM   
sanch

 

Posts: 364
Joined: 10/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
...
When you are running coastwise-which is what the majority of shipping traffic is doing at any given time, you just made use of running fixes by taking bearings of known lights and geographical fixtures. It is pretty simple to do.
...


Yep. bearings from coastal features works great, until the fog rolls in.

Happened to me once crossing Massachusetts Bay. Dead reckoned via speed and bearing, and wound up a good 3-4 miles off after a 50-mile run from Gloucester to the Cape Cod Canal.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 34
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/14/2017 5:37:42 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10345
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Or you could just follow, albeit at a distance, the ship ahead!

Ever hear of Honda Point?






Like a mass beaching of whales.


_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 35
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/14/2017 6:09:42 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9560
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanch


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
...
When you are running coastwise-which is what the majority of shipping traffic is doing at any given time, you just made use of running fixes by taking bearings of known lights and geographical fixtures. It is pretty simple to do.
...


Yep. bearings from coastal features works great, until the fog rolls in.

Happened to me once crossing Massachusetts Bay. Dead reckoned via speed and bearing, and wound up a good 3-4 miles off after a 50-mile run from Gloucester to the Cape Cod Canal.



Yes, but if you eventually found your way home then you did a great job and have a good sea story to boot...

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to sanch)
Post #: 36
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/14/2017 6:59:57 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 10928
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: sanch


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
...
When you are running coastwise-which is what the majority of shipping traffic is doing at any given time, you just made use of running fixes by taking bearings of known lights and geographical fixtures. It is pretty simple to do.
...


Yep. bearings from coastal features works great, until the fog rolls in.

Happened to me once crossing Massachusetts Bay. Dead reckoned via speed and bearing, and wound up a good 3-4 miles off after a 50-mile run from Gloucester to the Cape Cod Canal.



Yes, but if you eventually found your way home then you did a great job and have a good sea story to boot...

But the peanut gallery wants to know ... did your SHIP find its way home too?

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 37
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/14/2017 9:02:13 PM   
sanch

 

Posts: 364
Joined: 10/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
But the peanut gallery wants to know ... did your SHIP find its way home too?


Yes, IIRC (this was probably 50 years ago - mid 60's) at about the same time the depth started shoaling fast, visibility went from 50 yards to perhaps 1/2 mile - enough to find landmarks and figure we were closer to Barnstable harbor than the canal entrance.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 38
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/14/2017 10:04:00 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11155
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Yes, but if you eventually found your way home then you did a great job and have a good sea story to boot...


And we know the difference between a fairy tale and a sea story . . .

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 39
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/15/2017 12:34:32 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 10928
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Yes, but if you eventually found your way home then you did a great job and have a good sea story to boot...


And we know the difference between a fairy tale and a sea story . . .

From 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, Kirk Douglas sings:

"Iiii've a whale of a tale to tell you lads
A whale of a tale or two!
A whale of a tale and it's all true
I swear by my tattoo!

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 40
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/15/2017 6:17:27 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11155
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Yes, but if you eventually found your way home then you did a great job and have a good sea story to boot...


And we know the difference between a fairy tale and a sea story . . .

From 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, Kirk Douglas sings:

"Iiii've a whale of a tale to tell you lads
A whale of a tale or two!
A whale of a tale and it's all true
I swear by my tattoo!


Nope. USN vets know the answer. I don't know about Merchant Marine.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 41
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/17/2017 1:11:32 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 5316
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Or you could just follow, albeit at a distance, the ship ahead!

Ever hear of Honda Point?






I have some of the original photos of this. I posted a while back I got a scrap book from a groghead who was in just after the turn of the century. There are 35 or so actual aerial pictures of this.

_____________________________

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 42
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/18/2017 9:57:46 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 23800
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

Just curious how they manage to get around in the ocean back in the 40's, esp the submarines. Using compass, but how can you tell what longitude and latitude and bring it down to degree, minutes and seconds.

Don't think they were using Mariner's Astrolabe lol.

Compass does help, but still need something to help them even accurate location. They didn't have computers back in the 40's?

Henning Umland has written a wonderful book on the subject titled A Short Guide to Celestial Navigation.

His site:
http://celnav.de/

PDF of the book is inside a .zip file:
http://celnav.de/astro.zip

I wholeheartedly suggest reading it!


Thanks!


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 43
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/26/2017 4:45:08 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 3179
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Lima and Toronto
Status: offline
By the way, I just found a mod called "Wolves of Steel", for submarine simulator game "Silent Hunter V". You can find it in Subsim

So in this mod, you can select "Real Navigation" and then you will not see where you are in the map, unless you order your navigator to calculate position via celestial navigation (assuming good weather) or dead reckoning. There is also this automatic task function where you can request updates every 2 hours (5 celestial fixes, 7 dead reckons per day).

And the mod also allows you to calculate it manually, using an in-game sextant to measure the sun, moon or stars. You will also require an almanac for 1939-45 and a excel spreadsheet (or advanced knowledge in math). Latitude is calculated relatively easy (sextant + almanac) , while longitude requires the spreadsheet

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 7/26/2017 4:56:20 PM >

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 44
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/26/2017 7:45:31 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11155
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
Dead reckoning is done every day, every hour, every minute in RL. Doing one or at most two fixes a day would be a lot. A "noon sun" is easy, but most of the time subs were patrolling at PD at noon.

Except in AE. They're always on the surface there.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 45
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/27/2017 7:21:18 AM   
redindus69


Posts: 1670
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

By the way, I just found a mod called "Wolves of Steel", for submarine simulator game "Silent Hunter V". You can find it in Subsim

So in this mod, you can select "Real Navigation" and then you will not see where you are in the map, unless you order your navigator to calculate position via celestial navigation (assuming good weather) or dead reckoning. There is also this automatic task function where you can request updates every 2 hours (5 celestial fixes, 7 dead reckons per day).

And the mod also allows you to calculate it manually, using an in-game sextant to measure the sun, moon or stars. You will also require an almanac for 1939-45 and a excel spreadsheet (or advanced knowledge in math). Latitude is calculated relatively easy (sextant + almanac) , while longitude requires the spreadsheet


Interesting, need to look into that.

Thanks

_____________________________


(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 46
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/27/2017 11:55:11 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 3179
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Lima and Toronto
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Dead reckoning is done every day, every hour, every minute in RL. Doing one or at most two fixes a day would be a lot. A "noon sun" is easy, but most of the time subs were patrolling at PD at noon.

Except in AE. They're always on the surface there.


In game this is kind of DR is assumed, what you get is a fix entered into the map at 2 hours intervals or anytime you ask for it. It also take only a minute or so, game time, while the celestial fix takes around 40 minutes, game time, and it alsways done at noon, midnight and 6am

Game also have an optional enigma machine, so a few important messages come in code, and you would need to use enigma to decode it.

Definitively recommended for any submarine simulation gamer; this is like an evolved SHIII-GWX mod

Important to mention, you need the non-steam version of the game to install the mod

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 7/27/2017 12:12:00 PM >

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 47
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/27/2017 2:05:14 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 8389
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

They didn't have computers back in the 40's?


Sure they did. Norden bombsite is an example. Various coding/decoding machines. All electromechanical, but computers none the less. Don't know of any for navigation though.

First analog computer was developed in 1938 (Philbrick). These were designed to solve derivative and integral equations using electronic circuits. Very efficient and very accurate.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 48
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/27/2017 2:34:05 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11155
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Dead reckoning is done every day, every hour, every minute in RL. Doing one or at most two fixes a day would be a lot. A "noon sun" is easy, but most of the time subs were patrolling at PD at noon.

Except in AE. They're always on the surface there.


In game this is kind of DR is assumed, what you get is a fix entered into the map at 2 hours intervals or anytime you ask for it. It also take only a minute or so, game time, while the celestial fix takes around 40 minutes, game time, and it alsways done at noon, midnight and 6am

Game also have an optional enigma machine, so a few important messages come in code, and you would need to use enigma to decode it.

Definitively recommended for any submarine simulation gamer; this is like an evolved SHIII-GWX mod

Important to mention, you need the non-steam version of the game to install the mod


I played SH4 a fair bit years ago. Despite my much greater interest in the PTO and the USN sub war, I could never get past some of the design decisions they made. Always went back to SH3 Grey Wolves.

The sight reduction math for a fix takes some time and a bunch of books. Six hours would be OK. Weather decides when you can get a good set of shots. You have to be able to see a horizon to use a sextant, and that's often more limiting than the stars and overhead clarity.

From memory, but I think Enigma was purely Germans, The intercepts in the PTO were Magic. I think one other system too, but the name escapes me.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 49
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/27/2017 2:59:20 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 3179
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Lima and Toronto
Status: offline
I have played them all, In SHV you are a U-boat captain, the entire war would be played in a Type VII boat (in its few versions, so no Type II, IX or XXI)

The original game is a dog. they tried to add some role playing like morale or unrealistic special abilities
the boat is beautifully modeled and it is a living boat; you can walk (or teleport) from bow to stern, you can see the torpedo tubes being reloaded

The mod fixed all the arcade/ unrealistic abilities and it added 2 big wins and several small ones compared to SHIII-GWX:
- real navigation that adds a complete new dimension to manual targeting: you no longer know your exact position, only a guesstimate
- scripts that you can use to program the boat AI to perform: the two hour interval for map plotting was one example, there are others like search in a zig-zag pattern, with one PD dive to listen to hydrophones every hour. This can reduce the "chore" tasks and make the game more enjoyable

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 50
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/27/2017 5:40:10 PM   
redindus69


Posts: 1670
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I have played them all, In SHV you are a U-boat captain, the entire war would be played in a Type VII boat (in its few versions, so no Type II, IX or XXI)

The original game is a dog. they tried to add some role playing like morale or unrealistic special abilities
the boat is beautifully modeled and it is a living boat; you can walk (or teleport) from bow to stern, you can see the torpedo tubes being reloaded

The mod fixed all the arcade/ unrealistic abilities and it added 2 big wins and several small ones compared to SHIII-GWX:
- real navigation that adds a complete new dimension to manual targeting: you no longer know your exact position, only a guesstimate
- scripts that you can use to program the boat AI to perform: the two hour interval for map plotting was one example, there are others like search in a zig-zag pattern, with one PD dive to listen to hydrophones every hour. This can reduce the "chore" tasks and make the game more enjoyable


Interesting, I been wanted to try out playing the Japanese Campaign on those submarine simulation. I heard there a mod for that, but last time I checked they were slow and never gotten it done. Wish they had it setup so you can play either sides.

_____________________________


(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 51
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/27/2017 6:42:36 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11155
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I have played them all, In SHV you are a U-boat captain, the entire war would be played in a Type VII boat (in its few versions, so no Type II, IX or XXI)



I saw V had the "always online" thing and that was it for me. I think for most players of I-IV.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 52
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/27/2017 7:35:01 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 3179
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Lima and Toronto
Status: offline
SH-V started as "always online", but it is not the case anymore.

I am surprised you didn't like SH-IV; after adding realism and campaign mods, you get a very good game.. I remember playing it with historical campaign years ago. With it you can see all major operations in accurate dates and TF composition (examples: you can intercept the Japanese invasion of the Philippines if you are near Vigan in mid December 41, etc), plus you get very realistic (if random) convoys, so no more fleet destroyers low convoys, instead subchasers and armed merchants

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 53
RE: Maritime Navigation - 7/27/2017 7:42:52 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11155
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

SH-V started as "always online", but it is not the case anymore.

I am surprised you didn't like SH-IV; after adding realism and campaign mods, you get a very good game.. I remember playing it with historical campaign years ago. With it you can see all major operations in accurate dates and TF composition (examples: you can intercept the Japanese invasion of the Philippines if you are near Vigan in mid December 41, etc), plus you get very realistic (if random) convoys, so no more fleet destroyers low convoys, instead subchasers and armed merchants


They got a lot of inside-the-boat stuff wrong. Not that big a deal to someone who didn't serve in the USN. Not surprised as the team was Romanian as I recall.

They also didn't adequately deal with the distances re the long transit times. At the time my box would only accelerate to about 2000x.

At the time I quit they also hadn't fixed the local time/sunrise/still on Pearl time thing. The boat time was still on Pearl time and didn't agree with outside.

And the damage graphics were terrible. You could look right through the pressure hull and se the inside of the boat. It would have sunk long before.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 54
RE: Maritime Navigation - 8/8/2017 3:10:18 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 23317
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online
...
Cyberattacks on GPS leave ships sailing in dangerous waters

_____________________________


(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 55
RE: Maritime Navigation - 8/8/2017 8:54:34 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 4449
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

...
Cyberattacks on GPS leave ships sailing in dangerous waters

Shudder.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 56
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> RE: Maritime Navigation Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.141