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Runway Damage Threshold - 7/5/2017 12:46:51 PM   
DWReese

 

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I've been playing around with the Korea Missile Crisis scenario. One of the major themes seems to be the suppression of the various N. Korean runways, in an effort to keep their planes on the ground.

Does anyone know what the Damage Percentage Number is set at to suppress the runway? I haven't really done any testing, but to me it seems as though it's somewhere around 75 percent. So, when the runway sustains 75 percent, or more, the runway is no longer usable. Is that correct?

The reason that I bring this up, is that I often find that I am able to suppress the runways, but a little while later it seems that the planes are back flying out of the base again. I assume that that means that the runways was repaired. I do know that damage is repairable, but exactly how fast does something like a runway get repaired. If it works similar to how I think (which is pretty cool), my missiles suppress the base by reaching, and slightly surpassing the 75 percent threshold. I then launch various follow-up attacks around that air base, only to find the base launching planes again, after I thought that it was suppressed.

So, if the threshold is 75 percent, as I think, and I inflict 75.8 percent damage, thereby suppressing the base, will the base automatically become operational again after the damage is repaired and the damage percentage falls back under 75 percent?

Again, I'm not certain of the number, but for the purpose of this discussion, I used the number that I thought was most accurate to illustrate my point.

Thanks

Doug
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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/5/2017 5:26:08 PM   
AlphaSierra

 

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I can't answer your question about percentages and such but repairs to a runway can happen pretty quickly.

I have found it difficult to apply enough ordinance to runways and access points to "suppress" much of anything.

What I have discovered, however, is the ease at which hangars and outside parking areas are obliterated with 4 bombers.

The trick is figuring out which hangars cough spy cough are occupied.

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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/5/2017 6:07:26 PM   
Sakai007


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I find attacking runways is a futile enterprise. Runway access points are the major bottlenecks. They take much less to put out of action then runways do. But like runways it will not be permanent, they will repair with time.

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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/5/2017 6:23:50 PM   
Gunner98

 

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I think you need to assess each base - one with a single runway and 8 access points - go for the runway.

4-8 2000lb penetrators usually does a good job for quite some time - gives you lots of time to go and plink the parking spots that are occupied. Or just keep throwing a bomb or two at it every few hours.

And don't forget the runway capable taxiways... they are a PITA

B

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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/5/2017 6:23:52 PM   
Cik

 

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depends on the base. often they will have runway-grade taxiways which can enable sorties.

just depends on base structure. sometimes you get lucky and the munitions storages are open air. he he he.

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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/5/2017 8:04:47 PM   
DWReese

 

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Yes, the Korean Missile Crisis scenario even mentions the taxiways. I managed to hit every base and every taxiway. I was awarded the points for doing so. The problem is, as I see it, the attackers were so spread thin that they hit everything , but destroyed nothing. Using the Editor, I was able to see that many of the runways and taxiways were damaged right around the 75 percent threshold. It seems that just when you think that you have accomplished everything, and it was time to send in some F-22s to hit some of the main targets, suddenly a base launches some more planes at you. This was a base that you had received points for suppressing. That's why I was wondering what the threshold was set at. If I knew that you needed "X percent" to suppress the base, then I could plan accordingly. As I see now, not all ordinance is created the same....<lol>

Doug

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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/5/2017 8:21:23 PM   
SeaQueen


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The runway damage model is actually one of my pet peeves. In Command, damaging the runway has the effect of reducing the sortie rate of that base so even after sustaining a few hits, depending on the type of weapon, you might see sorties.

In reality, the issue with runway damage is how long the longest usable length of runway is and the minimum takeoff/landing distance for a given aircraft. So, if the runway is long enough, you could put a crater smack in the middle of it, and still fly 100% of your original sortie rate if the aircraft based at that base can safely takeoff and land in 50% the original length of the runway. If they can't, there's no reduction in the sortie rate, it's just shut down to those aircraft. It might remain opened with no impact to helicopters, VTOL aircraft, STOL aircraft, etc. By the same token, it might remain opened to fighters, but closed to heavies like tankers, bombers and cargo aircraft (on account of their longer takeoff and landing distance). Cratering runways is about cutting it into sections too short to be used. Need 1000 ft to take off? On a 2000 ft runway, I need to put more than one big hole in the right places and if I do, it's completely closed to that aircraft type. You might shut down a runway with one hit in the right place, or 3 hits, or 2 hits, or 4 hits. It just depends on placement and what kinds of aircraft are there. Command doesn't really capture that. You just get a sortie rate reduction that might eventually get down to zero.

That being said, repairing the runway and getting sorties started again, is a real phenomena. Cratering the runway is only temporarily effective as crews can repair them fairly quickly. Although there's things one might do to slow them down (scattering air dropped mines all over the airfield might be one tactic). I don't believe Command captures that either, though.

If you're concerned that aircraft are getting up again, in spite of your efforts to shut down the airport, you should consider quickly following up with strikes on opened parking, hangers, hardened shelters, and revetments as well as some kind of fighter sweep over the airport to knock down any aircraft which might have gotten up to challenge you. The thing that makes airbases dangerous is the airplanes anyhow. Cratering the runways just keeps them on the ground for a short time where they can't fight back. Strikes against airports need to be fairly major efforts. There's so much which an airport needs to work. It needs runways, it needs gas, it needs airplanes. If you lack any one of those, then it's shut down. A serious strike against them needs to target all three points of failure simultaneously. Then on top of that there's the air defenses, so there needs to be missions targeting them at the same time. To make matters worse, you probably have to fight your way through clouds of fighters in order to get to it.

This isn't a job for just a small number of aircraft. It takes a fairly large package of aircraft to do it, and they all need to be timed right in order to maximize their effectiveness, with all of them arriving either in rapid succession or simultaneously. Depending on the defenses, it might take a few waves and several squadrons of aircraft to really take down one airbase. Airbase attacks are a great way to hone your Excel spreadsheet skills, honestly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese
Does anyone know what the Damage Percentage Number is set at to suppress the runway? I haven't really done any testing, but to me it seems as though it's somewhere around 75 percent. So, when the runway sustains 75 percent, or more, the runway is no longer usable. Is that correct?

The reason that I bring this up, is that I often find that I am able to suppress the runways, but a little while later it seems that the planes are back flying out of the base again. I assume that that means that the runways was repaired. I do know that damage is repairable, but exactly how fast does something like a runway get repaired. If it works similar to how I think (which is pretty cool), my missiles suppress the base by reaching, and slightly surpassing the 75 percent threshold. I then launch various follow-up attacks around that air base, only to find the base launching planes again, after I thought that it was suppressed.

So, if the threshold is 75 percent, as I think, and I inflict 75.8 percent damage, thereby suppressing the base, will the base automatically become operational again after the damage is repaired and the damage percentage falls back under 75 percent?

Again, I'm not certain of the number, but for the purpose of this discussion, I used the number that I thought was most accurate to illustrate my point.

Thanks

Doug



< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 7/6/2017 3:18:14 PM >

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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/5/2017 8:53:05 PM   
DWReese

 

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Thanks for taking the time to provide such a detailed response.

I had quite a good time planning the strikes on these bases, initially using the 128 TLAMs from my surface ships. I targeted each of the 20 runways/taxiways with 8 missiles each. Obviously, I would need 160 missiles, or 32 more than the ships could provide, so I launched several plane groups to hit the other four locations. Everything went perfect. All were down.

I was ready to celebrate my victory because it had been absolutely perfectly planned. I was ready to pin on my medal, as my follow up strikes were headed to take out a few main targets, which were only defended by some antiquated SAMs, when I started to see various planes being launched from the bases that I had recently suppressed. I hadn't anticipated that at all.

It wasn't something that I couldn't deal with, but it did prompt the question as to how long something "stays suppressed." I'm not sure if the game has some randomizing function that indicates that this bomb hit here, and that bomb hit there, so you have 1100 of the 200 feet of runway left. I love the fog of war aspect, but I believe that you should have some kind of expected time period where the runway/taxiway should be suppressed. That's why I was thinking that there is a threshold.

I also wonder, since the scenario gives you points for suppressing on of the targets, I wonder if it gives you more points the second time that you suppress it. I know that I can look it up, but it is kind of amusing.

Thanks again.

Doug

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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/5/2017 10:08:07 PM   
stilesw


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Using Lua there is a workaround for this issue if you are creating or modifying a scenario. You can set up a check for damage percentage:

Set up an event action to destroy the desired item - an access point in this case:
ScenEdit_KillUnit({side="Iran", name="Bushehr AB Runway Access Point"})

Next, set up an event trigger for the event - 80% in this sample.

Finally, set up an event with the SE_KillUnit as the action and the above trigger. So, when the target gets to the %damage point, it will be destroyed.

-Wayne






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< Message edited by stilesw -- 7/5/2017 10:09:37 PM >

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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/5/2017 11:16:56 PM   
Gunner98

 

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quote:

I wonder if it gives you more points the second time that you suppress it


Not really sure of the answer to that, it is a repeatable event so I suspect - Yes you get points again - its not many from memory so I don't think its a big issue.

I'm not a fan of the Lua kill option that Wayne mentions as it takes away some of the uncertainty you experienced - which I think is a good and fun part of the game. And a SeaQueen describes, this is a real issue.

When I'm playing I guess I go back to my roots - as a gunner I tend to 'Go Big or Go Home!'. First I don't tend to use TLAMs on runways, they do work but the non-penetrating warhead is the issue. Here is one way I do it:

-I use the TLAMs generally for radars, hangers, open air ammo supply, and when those are all covered parking spaces.
-I'll line up either a 4-ship of F-16/18 or a 2-ship of F-15, with BLU-109 or similar 2000lb penetrators or a pair of F-18s with JSOW Broach for each runway.
-Position all your strikes so they are just outside detection range along the shortest path to their target
-Have your AAW and SEAD escorts ready
-Launch your TLAMS
-Time it so your strikers are going in with the TLAMs and be ready for the flock of bees scrambling up from each base.
-By the time each runway is hit by 8x PGM 2000lb penetrators, not much is going to fly until the end of the scenario


Tailhook did an excellent AAR with a very effective first strike here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4247261

There are other ways - that's the fun of the game.

B

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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/6/2017 2:00:11 AM   
DWReese

 

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Thanks for your tips.

I followed several of the AARs and they all had quite a bit of success. In playing the scenario for the first time I was not privy to the approaches that they had used, and while I had a lot of success, the remaining ABs were able to send up enough a/c to make my plane attack a mess. I lost a lot of those F-16s.

Playing again, I decided to monitor the action through the Editor while hitting all of the bases with the TLAMs. As I said, there aren't enough, so I used some of the F-35s to augment my attack. By using the Editor I was able to see what had been successful, and govern my actions accordingly. The suspense, however, was gone as I scored a Decisive Victory.

The next time I played the scenario without the Editor, using the same strategy. To see planes launching after the base had been suppressed was surprising, but this is the best method. The "fog of war" apparently had me sending large groups of follow up attacks against a base that had lots of grounded a/c that couldn't even take off again for the duration of the scenario, all while another, more powerful base, was again left still standing. So, the fog of war is really good. You never know to what degree a base is damaged. I later used a F-22 on a recon mission to verify what still needed to be hit.

This is a fun scenario to develop and implement your strategy on. The planning is almost as much fun as the playing of the scenario itself.

Thanks again for your tips.

Doug

(in reply to Gunner98)
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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/6/2017 2:27:36 AM   
Gunner98

 

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Glad your enjoying it.

B

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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/6/2017 2:09:52 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Added some notes to our work list so the guys can take a look when they get a chance.

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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/6/2017 2:34:11 PM   
DWReese

 

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Thanks, Mike


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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/6/2017 8:15:30 PM   
Dimitris


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen
The runway damage model is actually one of my pet peeves. In Command, damaging the runway has the effect of reducing the sortie rate of that base so even after sustaining a few hits, depending on the type of weapon, you might see sorties.

In reality, the issue with runway damage is how long the longest usable length of runway is and the minimum takeoff/landing distance for a given aircraft. So, if the runway is long enough, you could put a crater smack in the middle of it, and still fly 100% of your original sortie rate if the aircraft based at that base can safely takeoff and land in 50% the original length of the runway. If they can't, there's no reduction in the sortie rate, it's just shut down to those aircraft. It might remain opened with no impact to helicopters, VTOL aircraft, STOL aircraft, etc. By the same token, it might remain opened to fighters, but closed to heavies like tankers, bombers and cargo aircraft (on account of their longer takeoff and landing distance). Cratering runways is about cutting it into sections too short to be used. Need 1000 ft to take off? On a 2000 ft runway, I need to put more than one big hole in the right places and if I do, it's completely closed to that aircraft type. You might shut down a runway with one hit in the right place, or 3 hits, or 2 hits, or 4 hits. It just depends on placement and what kinds of aircraft are there. Command doesn't really capture that. You just get a sortie rate reduction that might eventually get down to zero.


This is not quite true, actually. Runways (and other air facilities) have what is called an "effective runway/AC size", which takes into consideration both the runway's nominal aircraft size capacity and its current integrity status, to determine the true AC size class that it can handle.

Taking the pair of runways at Souda Bay as example (3500m):

* At between 75% and 100% integrity level (ie. 0-25% damage), the runway can handle very large aircraft.
* Between 50% and 75% integrity it can handle up to large aircraft.
* Between 25% and 50% integrity it can handle up to medium aircraft.
* Between 10% and 25% integrity it can handle up to small aircraft.
* Between 1% and 10% integrity only STOVL aircraft or helicopters can operate. (<--- At this point you're literally looking at craters and broken chunks of concrete everywhere. Perhaps even the STOVL ability is optimistic, given that in such a condition the engine-FOD would be quite likely...)

I think this roughly maps to what you are describing about the disruptive effect of cratering the runway. The sortie rate slowdown that you are observing may be due to other reasons, e.g. some of the taxiways being knocked out (if the damage inflicted on the runway is part of a wider attack on the base). The taxiways are a critical chokepoint and messing with them is a pretty cost-effective way of throwing the OPFOR's ATO/mission timetables completely out of the window. (Or simply delaying the GAI launch long enough that the strike does its job).

We do also model repairs but sadly no disruption from mines just yet. We'd love to expand on that

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 7/6/2017 8:21:00 PM >


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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/6/2017 8:34:29 PM   
Cik

 

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i think seaqueen's idea was that runway damage would be concrete (heh) that is, that it would be, say, 2000m down a runway; that would mean that aircraft with a 3000m TOD/LAD would not be able to take off but a 1500m TOD/LAD could. you'd have to check both ways i suppose- the longest contiguous piece of runway would have to be considered so if a 4000m runway had one hole in it 1000m down the run from the west you could still use the 3000m uninterrupted surface as long as you used the entry point at the east end and took off that way.

perhaps this is already a thing, dunno.

on another topic, do durandal-esque penetrator bombs make repairs take longer?

also i have always been curious if the "fire" gauge being near-full prevents repairs. often after a heavy attack by GBU-31/38 or conventional MK82/84 attacks by heavies the base will basically be a giant inferno. does that prevent repairs?


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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/6/2017 8:49:48 PM   
DWReese

 

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quote:

At between 75% and 100% integrity level (ie. 0-25% damage), the runway can handle very large aircraft.
* Between 50% and 75% integrity it can handle up to large aircraft.
* Between 25% and 50% integrity it can handle up to medium aircraft.
* Between 10% and 25% integrity it can handle up to small aircraft.
* Between 1% and 10% integrity only STOVL aircraft or helicopters can operate. (<--- At this point you're literally looking at craters and broken chunks of concrete everywhere. Perhaps even the STOVL ability is optimistic, given that in such a condition the engine-FOD would be quite likely...)


This was exactly what I was looking for. While the runway was obviously listed as being DAMAGED, it was still listed as OPERATIONAL. Your explanation, of course, makes sense. Your chart confirms what I had believed that being damaged less than 75 percent meant that the fighters could still take off, where being damaged more than 75 percent meant that they couldn't. This is exactly what I was looking for.

I thoroughly enjoy the fog of war aspect of this damage scale. The game designer set the threshold for victory points to be awarded at 70 percent. When I had received the Message that I had been awarded points I naturally assumed that the runway had been neutralized. That is why I was so surprised when fighters started leaving the base again. The points were awarded at 70 percent, but the actual damage was obviously less than 75 percent, so they could still take off. What a nice, and sneaky, approach. I love it.

Doug

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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/7/2017 12:53:46 AM   
AndrewJ

 

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Would it be worth adding this information to the BDA line of the contact status panel, perhaps something like this?



That would certainly help players understand what the damage means.

(Bearing in mind that BDA is frequently exaggerated, of course...)

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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/8/2017 4:36:43 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Grea idea Andrew! Added request to our list

Mike

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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/8/2017 5:22:38 PM   
De Savage

 

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Very good thread here. I'm also interested how detailed airbases and operations are simulated and ways to disable bases.

In the Cold War era Sweden and several other countries (my country Finland included) build underground hangars for fighters. These tunnels are protected by blast doors, but vulnerable if access points/doors are destroyed. How should I build air bases to simulate this? If at least one access point for runway is available is airbase able to launch planes? Do position of access points matter?

Also it would be nice that when these underground hangars exist aircrafts would use these. It seems that when they are available planes still prefer hardened aircraft shelters. Or is this planned AI behavior? One single penetrator bomb could wipe out several aircrafts in underground tunnels.


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< Message edited by De Savage -- 7/8/2017 5:52:45 PM >

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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/8/2017 5:34:46 PM   
DWReese

 

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I knew that they could take off and land on TAXIWAYS, but I didn't think that planes could use ACCESS POINTS for that.

Doug

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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/8/2017 5:52:12 PM   
Gunner98

 

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De Savage

You can build an airbase normally but include underground aircraft shelters and blast doors. You still need runways and access points which are vulnerable however.

The underground shelters have about 16-3200 DPs with lots of protection, blast doors are about the same







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RE: Runway Damage Threshold - 7/8/2017 5:57:15 PM   
De Savage

 

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Thanx. That's the way I have build them :). But the problem here seems to be even if I manually add aircrafts to these underground hangars all aircrafts are deployed to nearby hardened shelters. I was wondering are they usable or just bomb targets.

Edit: My bad. It seems I just need to run time after setting this up on scenario and underground hangar worked.

< Message edited by De Savage -- 7/8/2017 6:43:48 PM >

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