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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov

 
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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 8/30/2017 1:23:32 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Turn 3 update. I'm showing pictures of turn 3 in a few of my games. If you see a red color center in my units it is a marker showing that this unit is over 45 morale and 45 experience on squads. I initiated this system in the last 3 games I started playing and can tell at a glance which are important units and which aren't.

Red center = morale over 45 and squad experience over 45
Lime green center = unit has the required wins for guard status (5 or greater)
bright yellow center = 1 win away from guard status(4 wins)
black center = low morale and low experience unit (use this units to screen)

Here are some pictures from random games this year and last. (you can tell recent games with colored centers per above)

Random Picture # 3




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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 8/30/2017 1:23:58 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Turn 3 update. I'm showing pictures of turn 3 in a few of my games. If you see a red color center in my units it is a marker showing that this unit is over 45 morale and 45 experience on squads. I initiated this system in the last 3 games I started playing and can tell at a glance which are important units and which aren't.

Red center = morale over 45 and squad experience over 45
Lime green center = unit has the required wins for guard status (5 or greater)
bright yellow center = 1 win away from guard status(4 wins)
black center = low morale and low experience unit (use this units to screen)

Here are some pictures from random games this year and last. (you can tell recent games with colored centers per above)

Random picture # 4




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 8/30/2017 1:24:22 AM >


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Post #: 92
RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 8/30/2017 1:25:02 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 1437
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Turn 3 update. I'm showing pictures of turn 3 in a few of my games. If you see a red color center in my units it is a marker showing that this unit is over 45 morale and 45 experience on squads. I initiated this system in the last 3 games I started playing and can tell at a glance which are important units and which aren't.

Red center = morale over 45 and squad experience over 45
Lime green center = unit has the required wins for guard status (5 or greater)
bright yellow center = 1 win away from guard status(4 wins)
black center = low morale and low experience unit (use this units to screen)

Here are some pictures from random games this year and last. (you can tell recent games with colored centers per above)

Random picture # 5




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 93
RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 8/30/2017 1:28:37 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Turn 3 update. I'm showing pictures of turn 3 in a few of my games. If you see a red color center in my units it is a marker showing that this unit is over 45 morale and 45 experience on squads. I initiated this system in the last 3 games I started playing and can tell at a glance which are important units and which aren't.

Red center = morale over 45 and squad experience over 45
Lime green center = unit has the required wins for guard status (5 or greater)
bright yellow center = 1 win away from guard status(4 wins)
black center = low morale and low experience unit (use this units to screen)

Here are some pictures from random games this year and last. (you can tell recent games with colored centers per above)

Random picture # 6 (six should be more than enough to see the similarities)




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 94
RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 8/30/2017 1:30:48 AM   
Crackaces


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I'm still waiting for an update for the two games where panzer balls are at the gates of Moscow ;)

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Laughter and tears are both responses to frustration and exhaustion. I myself prefer to laugh, since there is less cleaning up to do afterward. - Kurt Vonnegut

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Post #: 95
RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 8/30/2017 1:34:12 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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It is very important to set units to reserve activation. I have tried with and without and found that the reserve activation is a key that needs turning especially with the difficulties the Soviets face in digging in.

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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 8/30/2017 1:45:59 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

I'm still waiting for an update for the two games where panzer balls are at the gates of Moscow ;)


I would LOVE to but I can't yet. That person would see the disposition of my troops!!!! But what the heck, I will just black out my side. Here is turn 14, he has moved 11+ PZ/Moto units away from Moscow attacks this turn to the North (I know there are 3 to 4 in the south). Without further ado here are the PZ's in front of Moscow turn 14. Enjoy because I sure the hell am not enjoying PZ's this close to Moscow. (I guess the side effect of the medicine (still holding Leningrad) does have serious ill effects too)

Currently in the pile in front of Moscow are the following(+/- 2 to 4 units I can't 100% tell what they are) but confirmed are the following units attacking Moscow;

Motorized Division

60th
3rd
36th
Wiking
18th
Totenkoph
20th
Das Reich

Panzer Division in front of Moscow

20th
12th
9th
19th
17th
8th
6th
10th

Motorized brigades

900th
Gross Deutchland

That is the break down of mech units I know of +/- 2 to 4 units

Again the rest have moved North to try a cut off maneuver.




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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 8/30/2017 2:42:26 AM >


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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 8/30/2017 1:54:43 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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The picture in the last post and this post was just taken. So you are seeing hot off the press picts. The Air War is extremely HOT as you can see here which I want and well worth the airframes lost on my side. The majority of my units are finally getting into the Mid to high 30's for squad experience and the Germans are starting to pay the price for battles.




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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 8/30/2017 1:55:38 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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So hopefully this carries you over for a little bit Crackaces. Too much eye candy is bad ;-P

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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 8/30/2017 2:00:07 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

So hopefully this carries you over for a little bit Crackaces. Too much eye candy is bad ;-P


My truck situation is in good shape too that you can see in the photo :)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 8/30/2017 2:02:58 AM >


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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 8/30/2017 2:29:35 AM   
galex

 

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I'm curious about how you managed your truck.

Can you post some guideline of what Soviet should do to save trucks?


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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 8/30/2017 2:39:22 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: galex

I'm curious about how you managed your truck.

Can you post some guideline of what Soviet should do to save trucks?




I only defend with Armor Division and/or Moto Division on the front line only IF I absolutely have to, or to fill a gap. Or I know for a fact that I won't lose them to being surrounded. The first couple of turns I would rather disband an armor/moto unit to save the trucks then for it to be lost. So I disband them and don't care about the lost return on a unit. Pretty much in a nutshell, just keep them out of harms way. Thus all of these Armor and Moto units equal saved trucks

I do use the big armor units and they are pretty much the only ones I have replacements turned on.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 8/30/2017 2:45:33 AM >


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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 8/30/2017 4:23:28 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Saving trucks is not as hard as you might think. I've seen comments before, like the Soviets lose 20 truck factories, so they are in trouble. That's ridiculous. First off, the Soviets have 140 domestic truck factories. After 1941, each factory produces 5.5 trucks per week. So the loss of 20 factories represents 110 trucks per week. That's 5,720 trucks per year. In 1942, Lend Lease provides 1,000 trucks a week, 52,000 a year.

In 1943, it's 156,000 per year. So will the loss of 20 factories hurt? A tiny bit, but in no way is it even remotely a game changer.

Here are some of the ways to find yourself hurting for trucks:

Building too many many tank support units.

Building too many light rocket regiments.

Keeping motorcycle regiments around. They provide no real unique advantage as a combat support unit.

Keeping a lot of level bombers on the map. Air bases with level bombers require far more trucks than any other type of aircraft. So the trucks are stripped out of the motor pool needlessly.

Building too may tank or mechanized corps. This is later in the game, but be mindful of the fact each mechanized corps can require 2,500-3,000 trucks. By all means build them, just don't go crazy, like building 15-20. I tend to like about 8 mech corps and 24 or so tank corps.

Having too many tank units far from railheads, particularly during first blizzard. It's easy to advance with lots of tanks while recapturing lots of territory. Then you look at the truck supply and realize you've lost thousands of trucks trying to supply all these tanks. I now only deploy about 20% of my entire tank force forward during first blizzard. The rest just stay back and gain experience. Same for airbases getting too far forward, keep them close to the functioning rail network.

Net result if you follow these tips and don't lose all your domestic truck production, then truck shortages are not so much an issue.

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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 8/30/2017 5:57:54 AM   
galex

 

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Thanks very much. great post~~@HardLuckYetAgain @M60A3TTS

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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 8/30/2017 12:19:13 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Saving trucks is not as hard as you might think.



Nope, it is not. But it is a good practice to think out a defense with appropriate units instead of sacrificing armor/moto units. ;-) That is my point.

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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 9/5/2017 6:26:39 PM   
Crackaces


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It is very interesting to watch the unfolding of a strong Leningrad defense at the sacrifice of risking Moscow ... As far as I can tell the Germans have to run into the wall at PSOV and then spend a turn (maybe 2 turns I am waiting for your opponent to update their AAR) forming a "panzerball" destined for Moscow. In the big scheme of things this is very very interesting. Given that the goal is to be in Berlin before May 1945 and the immediate goal is to slow the Germans down so the "Bears" get 3 deep and dug in until Red Army 2.0. This strategy seems to stabilize things into a definitive albeit scary front at turn 13? The "smokingdave" AAR shows that the Germans can take Leningrad and drive the front backwards, but just one unanticipated drive by Red Army 2.0 can move the front quickly rearward.

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Laughter and tears are both responses to frustration and exhaustion. I myself prefer to laugh, since there is less cleaning up to do afterward. - Kurt Vonnegut

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Post #: 106
RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 9/5/2017 7:06:22 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

This strategy seems to stabilize things into a definitive albeit scary front at turn 13?



Scary????? Are you kidding me? Scary is an understatement. More like someone shoving a very large cylinder up your rectum without lube is what comes to mind when defending Moscow from so many Panzers/Moto divisions. I swat them with a fly swatter to cause miniscual(if such a word) damage as they continue to grind forward only for me to lose 1,000's in the process. But then again I would rather lose Moscow over Leningrad & many won't agree with me.




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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 9/5/2017 7:22:57 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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I love building my win ratio. This is a turn 12 screenshot of my wins for my units. I really believe the Soviets need to attack, I even do it without the +1 Attack bonus but I am more discrete. But man attacking German Regiments/Brigades is VERY VERY VERY hurtful.




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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 9/5/2017 9:43:53 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

This strategy seems to stabilize things into a definitive albeit scary front at turn 13?



Scary????? Are you kidding me? Scary is an understatement. More like someone shoving a very large cylinder up your rectum without lube is what comes to mind when defending Moscow from so many Panzers/Moto divisions. I swat them with a fly swatter to cause miniscual(if such a word) damage as they continue to grind forward only for me to lose 1,000's in the process. But then again I would rather lose Moscow over Leningrad & many won't agree with me.





In my business I might use the word "concern" rather scary ..:)

I have not worked the variables yet .. at sometime can you discuss the strategic value in your mind of Lenningrad vs Moscow? One thing I can think of is the time for the Germans to get a railhead forward and for the Bears to start resistance vs the time for supply vs Moscow.


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Laughter and tears are both responses to frustration and exhaustion. I myself prefer to laugh, since there is less cleaning up to do afterward. - Kurt Vonnegut

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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 9/5/2017 10:12:59 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

This strategy seems to stabilize things into a definitive albeit scary front at turn 13?



Scary????? Are you kidding me? Scary is an understatement. More like someone shoving a very large cylinder up your rectum without lube is what comes to mind when defending Moscow from so many Panzers/Moto divisions. I swat them with a fly swatter to cause miniscual(if such a word) damage as they continue to grind forward only for me to lose 1,000's in the process. But then again I would rather lose Moscow over Leningrad & many won't agree with me.





In my business I might use the word "concern" rather scary ..:)

I have not worked the variables yet .. at sometime can you discuss the strategic value in your mind of Lenningrad vs Moscow? One thing I can think of is the time for the Germans to get a railhead forward and for the Bears to start resistance vs the time for supply vs Moscow.



As for Railhead to Moscow it is easy for the Germans to have good supply for a Moscow offense easily turn 11ish. You just need to be prepared for it in depth as best you can as a Soviet player. German chained HQ BU's are a pain in the butt to defend against.

The biggest Stategic value for me is to cause the Germans an extended front with the lose of having the Finns to help defend in the coming winter. For the cost of 80ish AP's you can have all Forts @ 20% toe guard against the Finns which frees up more units for defense against the Germans. Keep the Germans from capturing Leningrad & the Winter offensive is "more" effective since fewer units defending more terrain.



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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 9/5/2017 10:19:56 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

This strategy seems to stabilize things into a definitive albeit scary front at turn 13?



Scary????? Are you kidding me? Scary is an understatement. More like someone shoving a very large cylinder up your rectum without lube is what comes to mind when defending Moscow from so many Panzers/Moto divisions. I swat them with a fly swatter to cause miniscual(if such a word) damage as they continue to grind forward only for me to lose 1,000's in the process. But then again I would rather lose Moscow over Leningrad & many won't agree with me.





In my business I might use the word "concern" rather scary ..:)

I have not worked the variables yet .. at sometime can you discuss the strategic value in your mind of Lenningrad vs Moscow? One thing I can think of is the time for the Germans to get a railhead forward and for the Bears to start resistance vs the time for supply vs Moscow.



As for Railhead to Moscow it is easy for the Germans to have good supply for a Moscow offense easily turn 11ish. You just need to be prepared for it in depth as best you can as a Soviet player. German chained HQ BU's are a pain in the butt to defend against.

The biggest Stategic value for me is to cause the Germans an extended front with the lose of having the Finns to help defend in the coming winter. For the cost of 80ish AP's you can have all Forts @ 20% toe guard against the Finns which frees up more units for defense against the Germans. Keep the Germans from capturing Leningrad & the Winter offensive is "more" effective since fewer units defending more terrain.




Essentially you nullify the Finns for a few AP's thus cutting the German fighting arm. But you have to succeed at holding Leningrad or delaying as long as possible for the Germans not to capture Leningrad in 41. Both Scenerios are win win since if a German pushes hard he will not have taken other areas of the map. I have to admit I have learned even more things to do in the last 5 games in the last few months. I have gained more insight on things that I would do now. But in a nutshell I'm still not that good of a Soviet player.

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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 9/5/2017 10:35:06 PM   
Crackaces


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I am understanding a well thought out plan. Now it's about riding out the pzball threatening Moscow.

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Laughter and tears are both responses to frustration and exhaustion. I myself prefer to laugh, since there is less cleaning up to do afterward. - Kurt Vonnegut

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Post #: 112
RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 9/8/2017 6:06:05 PM   
Nix77

 

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Do you have any pictures from turns 3-10 when you're preparing the Moscow defense, and how have the Germans advanced in that area?

At least Dinglir seems overtly cautious with AGC while facing no resistance at all in Smolensk-Bryansk area. Meanwhile he's banging his head to the Leningrad steel wall with majority of the panzers which is a bit counterintuitive . An aggressive player would note the strength in Leningrad area, make a change of plans with the Panzer Groups and spearhead the Vyazma line even with supply far behind. Converting the empty landbridge with motorized divisions would make the infantry advance faster too. With all the elite divisions at Pskov-Luga, Moscow defense would be in severe danger in this kind of scenario.

In any case, both yours and Dinglir's AARs are interesting to follow, keep up the good work :)

< Message edited by Nix77 -- 9/8/2017 6:08:16 PM >

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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 9/8/2017 6:47:40 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

Do you have any pictures from turns 3-10 when you're preparing the Moscow defense, and how have the Germans advanced in that area?

At least Dinglir seems overtly cautious with AGC while facing no resistance at all in Smolensk-Bryansk area. Meanwhile he's banging his head to the Leningrad steel wall with majority of the panzers which is a bit counterintuitive . An aggressive player would note the strength in Leningrad area, make a change of plans with the Panzer Groups and spearhead the Vyazma line even with supply far behind. Converting the empty landbridge with motorized divisions would make the infantry advance faster too. With all the elite divisions at Pskov-Luga, Moscow defense would be in severe danger in this kind of scenario.

In any case, both yours and Dinglir's AARs are interesting to follow, keep up the good work :)


Although no pictures yet .. I am getting a vision from Hardluckagain posts that Dinglir shifted focused about turn 9 to form a Panzerball at the gates of Moscow .. neither one has posted an the AAR yet ..

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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 9/8/2017 6:56:11 PM   
Telemecus


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Also from Dinglir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
I noticed in the centre you are still being careful to keep the panzers fueled up. Personally when I see empty space I tend to throw the motorised as far forward as possible, to convert as many hexes as possible, to get the infantry as far forward as possible. This is assuming that your motorised will probably need to be fueled up again in a couple of turns anyway, and are not going to be in combat/ threatened by encirclements etc. I just wondered in such cases would you have considered this as an alternative to being certain to keep your panzer corps in a good fuel situation?


To be honest, the reason for the inactivity of my Panzers in the center has more to do with inexperience than with a deliberate strategic choice. Remember that this is only my second effective game playing the Axis.

Having given turn nine to HardLuck, I can now say that right now I consider the use (or lack of use) of my center Panzers to have been the biggest mistake I have made so far in the game.


I am guessing Dinglir will have a thought piece about this very issue when their AAR gets to that turn.

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RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 9/8/2017 7:20:48 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77


At least Dinglir seems overtly cautious with AGC while facing no resistance at all in Smolensk-Bryansk area. Meanwhile he's banging his head to the Leningrad steel wall with majority of the panzers which is a bit counterintuitive . An aggressive player would note the strength in Leningrad area, make a change of plans with the Panzer Groups and spearhead the Vyazma line even with supply far behind. Converting the empty landbridge with motorized divisions would make the infantry advance faster too. With all the elite divisions at Pskov-Luga, Moscow defense would be in severe danger in this kind of scenario.

In any case, both yours and Dinglir's AARs are interesting to follow, keep up the good work :)


13 other "Agressive" Germans did just that, head towards Moscow. Yet to see what Dinglir will do you will just have to stay tuned. But all I do is leave enough force in the Leningrad area and rail all my good Divisions to Moscow when I'm 100% certain the Germans shifted their focus. Soviet Rail is faster than German tanks and the Soviets get there with a great deal less fatigue ;-)

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Post #: 116
RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 9/8/2017 7:26:47 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77


At least Dinglir seems overtly cautious with AGC while facing no resistance at all in Smolensk-Bryansk area. Meanwhile he's banging his head to the Leningrad steel wall with majority of the panzers which is a bit counterintuitive . An aggressive player would note the strength in Leningrad area, make a change of plans with the Panzer Groups and spearhead the Vyazma line even with supply far behind. Converting the empty landbridge with motorized divisions would make the infantry advance faster too. With all the elite divisions at Pskov-Luga, Moscow defense would be in severe danger in this kind of scenario.

In any case, both yours and Dinglir's AARs are interesting to follow, keep up the good work :)


13 other "Agressive" Germans did just that, head towards Moscow. Yet to see what Dinglir will do you will just have to stay tuned. But all I do is leave enough force in the Leningrad area and rail all my good Divisions to Moscow when I'm 100% certain the Germans shifted their focus. Soviet Rail is faster than German tanks and the Soviets get there with a great deal less fatigue ;-)


In my opinion that is where it all went wrong for "smokingdave" deeply invested in the South the Soviets railed a Tank Army+ to the far North from the south and attacked the next turn. The Germans could not shift forces to meet the threat and in a matter of moments ...the Finns surrendered ..

_____________________________

Laughter and tears are both responses to frustration and exhaustion. I myself prefer to laugh, since there is less cleaning up to do afterward. - Kurt Vonnegut

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Post #: 117
RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 9/8/2017 7:49:29 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

Do you have any pictures from turns 3-10 when you're preparing the Moscow defense, and how have the Germans advanced in that area?

At least Dinglir seems overtly cautious with AGC while facing no resistance at all in Smolensk-Bryansk area. Meanwhile he's banging his head to the Leningrad steel wall with majority of the panzers which is a bit counterintuitive . An aggressive player would note the strength in Leningrad area, make a change of plans with the Panzer Groups and spearhead the Vyazma line even with supply far behind. Converting the empty landbridge with motorized divisions would make the infantry advance faster too. With all the elite divisions at Pskov-Luga, Moscow defense would be in severe danger in this kind of scenario.

In any case, both yours and Dinglir's AARs are interesting to follow, keep up the good work :)


Although no pictures yet .. I am getting a vision from Hardluckagain posts that Dinglir shifted focused about turn 9 to form a Panzerball at the gates of Moscow .. neither one has posted an the AAR yet ..


I'm sorry, I promised Dinglir I wouldnt get ahead of his AAR. I can only say that he is pushing Hard towards Leningrad turn 7 and I'm going to withdraw industry from there. I can say that the other opponent "will not" able to capture Moscow before the mud hits(we are on turn 16). HIGHLY unlikely he will try during the snow but I will be prepared for it. I say "highly" unlikely because we are playing Severe Blizzard with +1 Soviet Attack & full Para drops upon his request. Basically the Soviets have their full arsenal and he isnt dug in in key spots and is strung out and overextended. IMHO he really needs to start preparing turn 17+ (getting units in position for defense) in Sever Blizzard with the Soviet +1 and full para or you are going to be caught with your pants around your ankles. Just my 2 cents for what it is worth, either way is fine with me ;-)

Winter is coming

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDgekMfhU8o




< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 9/8/2017 7:50:06 PM >


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(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 118
RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 9/8/2017 7:54:46 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

Do you have any pictures from turns 3-10 when you're preparing the Moscow defense, and how have the Germans advanced in that area?





Yes, I will post pictures when Dinglir and I get his AAR higher in turns. I will also post my strategic map of hold areas.

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Post #: 119
RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of ... - 9/8/2017 8:01:53 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3245
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
Hmmm a bad&*^ dragon blasting away at a wall with dozens of petrified and panicked soldiers fleeing for their lives provides the right visual for +1 and Full Blizzard ..

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Laughter and tears are both responses to frustration and exhaustion. I myself prefer to laugh, since there is less cleaning up to do afterward. - Kurt Vonnegut

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
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